Judgement day Friday, Feb. 8, 2013

[Hoov50]

Expulsion is the penalty for plagiarism.

Discrimination shouldn't even be mentioned here.

Not true, unless things have changed significantly since I was at SU. I had a friend who blatantly plagiarized, I am not sure why he thought he would get away with. He got caught and got an F on the assignment, which caused him to fail the course. He ended up having to take summer course in order to graduate, but he definitely was not expelled.

 

[Hoov50]

I think too often in our society we get fixated on certain words or labels, etc. I guess one could certainly conclude that your Puerto Rican friend and good fortune benefited you in some capacity. Others who may not have had this betterment, could, I guess, say it wasn't fair and that you had a definite advantage. Maybe some could intrepret that as a form of cheating? Or, maybe, it's just an acceptable form of some societal assistance? Whatever the intrepretation, one thing is certain (by your own admission) you gained an advantage that otherwise you would not have had...just as life and one's life experiences...

It definitely did benefit me. Having someone who speaks the language edit my papers made my papers much better than they would have been. Not sure if I would call it cheating, because I was still doing the work and making the changes.

 

[LetMeIn]

I think too often in our society we get fixated on certain words or labels, etc. I guess one could certainly conclude that your Puerto Rican friend and good fortune benefited you in some capacity. Others who may not have had this betterment, could, I guess, say it wasn't fair and that you had a definite advantage. Maybe some could intrepret that as a form of cheating? Or, maybe, it's just an acceptable form of some societal assistance? Whatever the intrepretation, one thing is certain (by your own admission) you gained an advantage that otherwise you would not have had...just as in life and one's life experiences...

How is this any different from a foreign student getting help on his papers from an English speaker? Don't most universities offer exactly that service to foreign students?

 

[Hoov50]

You bring up a great point, but in all fairness to both arguments, this might or might not be. It's somewhat speculation in that we do not know what is going on with the rest of the student body, ie, is the percentage of athletes questioned more about this business than the percentage of students that have not obtained a scholarship?

I am not trying to press buttons here, it just seems that we don't know if this is true or not. The problem is, almost all of us only get to see the student athlete's side as we're fans of the best basketball program in the country.

Either way, I agree if what you are saying is true in that if it is skewed far too one side, not fair to throw the book at them just because they have a scholarship based on their physical merits.

I honestly don't know the answer to the questions I posed, but I do know of some students, when I was at SU, who dealt with similar things (if rumors are to be believed) and they didn't have to go through a long drawn out process. In my other post, I ended with the disclaimer that no one really knows the details so we are just basing our opinions on rumors and probably should have included it in my post here.

 

[orangecuse]

Plagiarism is an interesting thing. As long as you are technically (footnoting, etc.) correct, it's socially acceptable. However, if there's an oversight or a technicality one forgets, etc., holy hell!

 

[OttoMets]

Not true, unless things have changed significantly since I was at SU. I had a friend who blatantly plagiarized, I am not sure why he thought he would get away with. He got caught and got an F on the assignment, which caused him to fail the course. He ended up having to take summer course in order to graduate, but he definitely was not expelled.

I don't know how new the student code of conduct is, but the minimum punishment for academic dishonesty is failing that course. More serious plagiarism (malfeasance, not misfeasance) or repeat plagiarism merits expulsion. Some colleges within SU have stricter standards.

 

[orangecuse]

It definitely did benefit me. Having someone who speaks the language edit my papers made my papers much better than they would have been. Not sure if I would call it cheating, because I was still doing the work and making the changes.

I understand, and I'm not insinuating that either. My main argument is that it can really depend on one's particular viewpoint, and/or society as a whole depending on what the consensus interpretation of what cheating is, etc. Cheating can be defined, at least in some fashion, as gaining an advantage...I guess if one attains an advantage, some could interpret it (in whatever degree) as a form of cheating...

 

[upperdeck]

isn't the goal of writing papers in school to learn how to write stuff so that you don't plagiarize and write in a coherent manner. Doing it incorrectly and doing it intentionally are different things. But this JS issue is not about plagiarism it was about cheating.

If I have math homework and someone shows me how to do a problem and then I do the problem and turn it in is that cheating? If someone works with me to help me write a paper and then I use those thoughts is that cheating? I write code every day , often using others peoples ideas and code to solve problems. But I would bet 99% of the people here never have to write things down related to how they learned to write a "paper" in college yet because someone helped someone get that paper done they are going to lose the one thing they came to college to do and over a skill they likely will never need. just like 75% of the things you learn in college.

 

[cusetown1]

If nobody catches you cheating, is it cheating?

 

[tee1222]

If nobody catches you cheating, is it cheating?

Just like my high school math teacher said to some students (not me, ubergeek freshman bunched in with seniors for this class), "You're only cheating on yourselves".

 

[cusetown1]

Just like my high school math teacher said to some students (not me, ubergeek freshman bunched in with seniors for this class), "You're only cheating on yourselves".

Yeah I have heard that before. What does that even mean?

 

[tee1222]

Just like my high school math teacher said to some students (not me, ubergeek freshman bunched in with seniors for this class), "You're only cheating on yourselves".

Sorry to keep yapping about my high school math "war stories" haha but this is too good not to share.
I was in fact, a sophomore as a bunch of junior high schools went to 9th grade.
One of the seniors I was friends with, popular guy, funny as , had to show me his grade after a test one time. I believe he received a 1.

That's right. 1.
Needless to say, he did not cheat off me, but oh, did we abuse him for this one. We made light of the fact that he was better off with a fargan zero than a damn ONE! At least that looks like he cheated, didn't show up, etc.

A one means that you "showed your work" etc. Super happy times, high school.

 

[tee1222]

Yeah I have heard that before. What does that even mean?

It means that you have to live with yourself, conscience, etc. I'm sure we all can justify some poor decisions, but it's all about what irks you most, ie, what you can "justify" about yourself that may not be cool to most.

Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy.

 

[cusetown1]

It means that you have to live with yourself, conscience, etc. I'm sure we all can justify some poor decisions, but it's all about what irks you most, ie, what you can "justify" about yourself that may not be cool to most.

Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy.

I remember how my Great Uncle Jerry would sit on the porch and whittle all day long. Once he whittled me a toy boat out of a larger toy boat I had. It was almost as good as the first one, except now it had bumpy whittle marks all over it. And no paint, because he had whittled off the paint.

 

[Hoov50]

It's interesting that this thread turned into a very civil debate/discussion on what does or does not qualify as cheating. It's nice to take a break from athletics, even on this board, and have philosophical discussion every now and then.

 

[tee1222]

isn't the goal of writing papers in school to learn how to write stuff so that you don't plagiarize and write in a coherent manner. Doing it incorrectly and doing it intentionally are different things. But this JS issue is not about plagiarism it was about cheating.

If I have math homework and someone shows me how to do a problem and then I do the problem and turn it in is that cheating? If someone works with me to help me write a paper and then I use those thoughts is that cheating? I write code every day , often using others peoples ideas and code to solve problems. But I would bet 99% of the people here never have to write things down related to how they learned to write a "paper" in college yet because someone helped someone get that paper done they are going to lose the one thing they came to college to do and over a skill they likely will never need. just like 75% of the things you learn in college.

Hey, sorry for the tangent, but fellow coder! C#, C++, native C, among others less used. How about you, what languages?

 

[tee1222]

I remember how my Great Uncle Jerry would sit on the porch and whittle all day long. Once he whittled me a toy boat out of a larger toy boat I had. It was almost as good as the first one, except now it had bumpy whittle marks all over it. And no paint, because he had whittled off the paint.

I really feel like I have heard that "Deep thought" before, but shoot, they all sound alike after a while.
Now that's plagiarism!

 

[OttoMets]

It's interesting that this thread turned into a very civil debate/discussion on what does or does not qualify as cheating. It's nice to take a break from athletics, even on this board, and have philosophical discussion every now and then.

You mean after a couple good posters, some pollyannas, and a hypocrite or two decided to gang up on someone with a handful of reasonable posts and generally behave like children?

Sharing of information is nice; hopefully everyone learns a thing or two. But this thread is one of the more disappointing displays on this board in recent memory.

 

[tee1222]

It's interesting that this thread turned into a very civil debate/discussion on what does or does not qualify as cheating. It's nice to take a break from athletics, even on this board, and have philosophical discussion every now and then.

There's only one thing to make this thread complete, and since it's come full circle:

 

[orangecuse]

How is this any different from a foreign student getting help on his papers from an English speaker? Don't most universities offer exactly that service to foreign students?

It may...not be. Though, it may depend on each foreign (or domestic) student and whether they feel they have the same viable access to such a resource?

 

[Hoov50]

You mean after a couple good posters, some pollyannas, and a hypocrite or two decided to gang up on someone with a handful of reasonable posts and generally behave like children?

Sharing of information is nice; hopefully everyone learns a thing or two. But this thread is one of the more disappointing displays on this board in recent memory.

Those are some of the "special" posters that I referred to in one of my earlier posts that believe student-athletes shouldn't have to take classes and should do whatever they want short of murder and rape.

 

[upperdeck]

Hey, sorry for the tangent, but fellow coder! C#, C++, native C, among others less used. How about you, what languages?

we use whatever the language of the day seems to be. Starting back in the day with Basic, went thru the Mainframe coding years Cobol/Algol/Pascal/Assembly/Fortran/FocusMark IV progressed into the 4D/filemaker/foxpro/delphi/hypertalk/applescript days mixed with Adabas/Natural for 20 years and now onto the Dark side for mostly web based stuff Coldfusion/Java/curl/pearl/python/VB/postcript/javascript/asp. Looking at lists probably 50 languages of production code and the odd 10-20 had to learn for college or work that never really got used..

 

[OttoMets]

Those are some of the "special" posters that I referred to in one of my earlier posts that believe student-athletes shouldn't have to take classes and should do whatever they want short of murder and rape.

There was that sentiment. There was the post by one of the board's most-maligned posters (with whom I often agree on basketball matters) that I can't help but read as bigoted. There was the "I cheated and I'm proud of it" crowd. There's some support for the "most of what you learn in college is useless anyway" train of thought.

And there's also the oddball who apparently was so put off by my opinions that he took the trouble to go back and "unlike" some of my past posts.

Someone forgot to tell me that it's Crazy Emotional Twelve-Year-Old Day on the forum. An unfortunate departure from what is usually productive and pleasant discourse.

 

[tee1222]

we use whatever the language of the day seems to be. Starting back in the day with Basic, went thru the Mainframe coding years Cobol/Algol/Pascal/Assembly/Fortran/FocusMark IV progressed into the 4D/filemaker/foxpro/delphi/hypertalk/applescript days mixed with Adabas/Natural for 20 years and now onto the Dark side for mostly web based stuff Coldfusion/Java/curl/pearl/python/VB/postcript/javascript/asp. Looking at lists probably 50 languages of production code and the odd 10-20 had to learn for college or work that never really got used..

Wow, very well rounded!
I thought it was hard to stuff what I have into 2 resume pages, but you might as well just bring the entire hard drive to an interview

 

[pearl31]

You mean after a couple good posters, some pollyannas, and a hypocrite or two decided to gang up on someone with a handful of reasonable posts and generally behave like children?

Sharing of information is nice; hopefully everyone learns a thing or two. But this thread is one of the more disappointing displays on this board in recent memory.

I'd like to get up on that horse with you, but maybe first you can go reread the poor victim's first few posts in this thread.