Karl Malone is an idiot...

[Deano]

magic is a better pick than stockton on any kind of team anywhere anytime. magic won an ncaa championship, 5 nba championships, and his teams made the finals 9 times in his 12 year career.

Ding..ding...ding...case closed!

 

[OrangeDW]

Stockton couldnt make his teammates better? Stockton on a team that needs defense and outside shooting at the pg spot would be the better pick. So no, not that simple.

Not to the level where any of his teams won anything significant. Unless you count winning the West after previously better teams like the Rockets, Blazers, and Suns were old and tapped out, the Sonics imploded, and the Lakers weren't ready yet. They were just kind of there. Give him and them credit for hanging around at a high enough level to capitalize when things were down.

Magic over Stockton on any team, ever, period. That simple. Not even close.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Not to the level where any of his teams won anything significant. Unless you count winning the West after previously better teams like the Rockets, Blazers, and Suns were old and tapped out, the Sonics imploded, and the Lakers weren't ready yet. They were just kind of there. Give him and them credit for hanging around at a high enough level to capitalize when things were down.

Well... they did it twice.

 

[OrangeDW]

Well... they did it twice.

Yeah, they deserve credit for their consistency. My point is, those teams really weren't any better than all the Jazz teams that got bounced in the first-2nd round so many times in the previous decade. They were basically the same as they always were...just everybody else got worse for a couple years.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yeah, they deserve credit for their consistency. My point is, those teams really weren't any better than all the Jazz teams that got bounced in the first-2nd round so many times in the previous decade. They were basically the same as they always were...just everybody else got worse for a couple years.

I'm not sure that's really true. Those two years they went to the finals they won they won 64 and 62 games, both franchise bests I think. That might be a result of everyone getting worse and them staying the same, but it wasn't a flukey thing that they made it out of the West. They were the best team regular and post season from that conference.

If you don't give Stockton and Malone credit for getting to the NBA finals twice in a down west, I have a hard time seeing why Lebron would get tons of credit for getting the Cavs out of a craptacular east once.

 

[Knicks411]

I know Simmons is a big proponent of the west falling apart a bit in the late 90's theory.

I have a hard time seeing why Lebron would get tons of credit for getting the Cavs out of a craptacular east
once.

For sure the East in 07 was much weaker than the West was in 97/98. I don't think he gets a ton of credit for it though, right? Though to be fair, it's not exactly the same comp. If Lebron was playing with another HOF like Stockton then the Cavs would've blown through the East. If he does get credit, its because the guy who was second on the team in minutes played that year was Larry Hughes. And I think Drew Gooden was third or fourth. So a little different.

I think Stockton is awesome, but it's Magic all day every day.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I know Simmons is a big proponent of the west falling apart a bit in the late 90's theory.

For sure the East in 07 was much weaker than the West was in 97/98. I don't think he gets a ton of credit for it though, right? Though to be fair, it's not exactly the same comp. If Lebron was playing with another HOF like Stockton then the Cavs would've blown through the East. If he does get credit, its because the guy who was second on the team in minutes played that year was Larry Hughes. And I think Drew Gooden was third or fourth. So a little different.

I think Stockton is awesome, but it's Magic all day every day.

I think he does. :noidea:

 

[Knicks411]

Well there you go. I think we've reached a stalemate of sorts.

I would posit that taking a team that had Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden prominently involved to the finals isn't quite the same as taking one with Karl Malone and Jeff Hornacek as the other good players to the finals.

But the Cavs probably would have done well to win one playoff round in the west that year. Cleveland had about the same winning% against the east as the west that year, which puts them as probably a 5 seed out west.

Oh yeah, I also forgot to say I don't really put too much stock in the idea of taking credit away from the Jazz for making the finals when they did.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well there you go. I think we've reached a stalemate of sorts.

I would posit that taking a team that had Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden prominently involved to the finals isn't quite the same as taking one with Karl Malone and Jeff Hornacek as the other good players to the finals.

That's why I think doing it twice matters.

 

[Shawn91111]

Not to the level where any of his teams won anything significant. Unless you count winning the West after previously better teams like the Rockets, Blazers, and Suns were old and tapped out, the Sonics imploded, and the Lakers weren't ready yet. They were just kind of there. Give him and them credit for hanging around at a high enough level to capitalize when things were down.

Magic over Stockton on any team, ever, period. That simple. Not even close.

Not to the level where any of his teams won anything significant. Unless you count winning the West after previously better teams like the Rockets, Blazers, and Suns were old and tapped out, the Sonics imploded, and the Lakers weren't ready yet. They were just kind of there. Give him and them credit for hanging around at a high enough level to capitalize when things were down.

Magic over Stockton on any team, ever, period. That simple. Not even close.

Then having Magic face a tough small quick footed PG such as Stockton would have him in fits. Such as Stockton did in his entire career against Magic, especially in the playoffs where he abused the Lakers. You're making it in terms of who is the better player. Obviously its Magic. I am making it like Malone did and who would be the best for a team

 

[CorduroyG]

Then having Magic face a tough small quick footed PG such as Stockton would have him in fits. Such as Stockton did in his entire career against Magic, especially in the playoffs where he abused the Lakers. You're making it in terms of who is the better player. Obviously its Magic. I am making it like Malone did and who would be the best for a team

but magic won everywhere he went. he won championships in high school, college and the pros. he got to the finals 9 times in 12 years. seems to me he made every team he played on a championship calibre team. sure his laker teams were stacked, but by '91 kareem had retired and worthy and scott were past their primes and he still led them to the finals. magic was a once in a generation (lifetime?) type of player, regardless of whether your team lacks outside shooting or whatever stockton was better at than magic, youre taking magic over him every single time.

 

[OrangeDW]

Then having Magic face a tough small quick footed PG such as Stockton would have him in fits. Such as Stockton did in his entire career against Magic, especially in the playoffs where he abused the Lakers. You're making it in terms of who is the better player. Obviously its Magic. I am making it like Malone did and who would be the best for a team

Umm...Stockton played against Magic's Lakers once in the playoffs. The Lakers won, though Stockton did have a big series.


The best player would almost always be best for a team. The only exception is if the best player is a chucker or selfish or a team cancer. Magic is the best player, and by all accounts a beloved teammate and team player, so I don't see how it's even an argument.

Stockton would be about my 5th pick.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

For those keeping score, DP asked Jason Kidd today who the best PG of all time was. He said John Stockton, and then said Magic Johnson. He put John Stockton on his all time starting 5.

I don't listen to DP every day, but I wonder what this tally is up to. He asks that question to all the NBA guys I think.