Kent Syverud letter to Miner

[CousCuse]

I don't disagree with you...Just wanted to state that she wasn't owned by the Locals. I am not originally from Syracuse, moved here from NYC (Brooklyn). I've lived here for over 20 years, with only a break for Military service. I personally think people in Syracuse think too small.It's almost like they expect the 1950's to be rolling around again. When I heard about the Stadium, I was all for it. I was recently in Baltimore, and had a chance to visit Camden Yards, I would have loved to see them do that to the area, it would have been a big deal, and I know that it is pretty irrelevant now, but the capacity of the stadium was well over 50k.

They even built a new arena in Brooklyn. But yea , those were my sentiments exactly. A whole new paradigm . It just so disheartening , this town feeds on negativity.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Yep. He has to think that way these days.

Even if he went to her office (because I doubt she was coming to him), and had a closed door meeting, if it were me, I'd be speaking as if the whole thing was recorded. Sign of the times.

Mayor Miner from what I gather (probably any politician or bureaucrat) isn't someone you'd have a private meeting with unless you immediately send a detailed "To confirm what we discussed in our meeting" follow-up letter. I've worked with people that I wanted everything documented to avoid later "confusion" and subsequent memory lapses.

 

[CousCuse]

I
Love
This

Mayor Miner so mishandled this. God forbid she seized an opportunity to play ball and get those $16 million in material improvements along the way.

Hope the next election has candidates who combine Miners legitimate caring for the City with the savvy of what needs to be done to do that.

Right. She could have come right out and said it , people aren't naïve to how politics and business work. She could have said; I am agreeing to this project , but the interests of the city of Syracuse will have to be addressed or I will use office to slow down and stop work from being done. There's a hundred ways that the city could bring work to a halt , and that should have been enough inducement for her concerns to be dealt with fairly.

 

[gocusecaz]

Where did you see that, I would love to read it. Do you have a link?

Hopefully this works.

 

[Crusty]

It appears that there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Almost looks like they knew what Miner's reaction would be and they set her up. The concept gets put out there like a trial balloon and everybody gets good pub except the Mayor, who looks rather ridiculous.

The Gov has stayed far away and why shouldn't he? He gets the benefit of the proposal and doesn't have to put up the money! Actually, same thing goes for the County Exec. The Mayor comes up with this stupid commission to study exactly what? With no reps from then key players - no SU, no county and no state. That is the biggest in your face I have seen in a long while. Miner does not seem ready for prime time.

SU has a study they will not share because they won't give her a chance to publicly shoot holes in it or play politics with it - very wise. Meanwhile, the commission of 24 (geez twenty freakin four!) will have no budget and come up with nothing that has any credibility. Beautiful.

Meanwhile, Miner will get nothing. The Gov will not give her what she wants for if he did every city, town and hamlet in the state would be at his door asking for the same thing.

This is going to be interesting to watch as it plays out. Since Miner is around for a few more years, I would guess there is going to be some serious behind-the-scenes-negotiating and it would not appear that she doesn't have any face cards in her hand. (Forget the notion that she has dozens of ways to block or impede it - you see what is happening to Christie trying to play hardball and he is the Gov!) The city exits at the pleasure of the state and the single biggest revenue source for the city is the money it gets from the state. Some say she is smart so I presume that she will try to get something done without any more damage to the city and to her own reputation. This stadium is going to get built one way or another so she can get on board and get something she wants for her union constituents or be left on the vine to blow in the wind.

Stay tuned there is nothing much better on the tube these days.

 

[xc84]

This stadium is going to get built one way or another so she can get on board and get something she wants for her union constituents or be left on the vine to blow in the wind.

Reminds me of something Bobby Knight once said...in a slightly different way.

 

[Millhouse]

It appears that there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Almost looks like they knew what Miner's reaction would be and they set her up. The concept gets put out there like a trial balloon and everybody gets good pub except the Mayor, who looks rather ridiculous.

The Gov has stayed far away and why shouldn't he? He gets the benefit of the proposal and doesn't have to put up the money! Actually, same thing goes for the County Exec. The Mayor comes up with this stupid commission to study exactly what? With no reps from then key players - no SU, no county and no state. That is the biggest in your face I have seen in a long while. Miner does not seem ready for prime time.

SU has a study they will not share because they won't give her a chance to publicly shoot holes in it or play politics with it - very wise. Meanwhile, the commission of 24 (geez twenty freakin four!) will have no budget and come up with nothing that has any credibility. Beautiful.

Meanwhile, Miner will get nothing. The Gov will not give her what she wants for if he did every city, town and hamlet in the state would be at his door asking for the same thing.

This is going to be interesting to watch as it plays out. Since Miner is around for a few more years, I would guess there is going to be some serious behind-the-scenes-negotiating and it would not appear that she doesn't have any face cards in her hand. (Forget the notion that she has dozens of ways to block or impede it - you see what is happening to Christie trying to play hardball and he is the Gov!) The city exits at the pleasure of the state and the single biggest revenue source for the city is the money it gets from the state. Some say she is smart so I presume that she will try to get something done without any more damage to the city and to her own reputation. This stadium is going to get built one way or another so she can get on board and get something she wants for her union constituents or be left on the vine to blow in the wind.

Stay tuned there is nothing much better on the tube these days.

"The Gov has stayed far away and why shouldn't he? He gets the benefit of the proposal and doesn't have to put up the money! Actually, same thing goes for the County Exec. "

Proposing it so late and then pulling the plug so fast makes me think that if this wasn't their plan, it is certainly a nice consolation prize for them. (i don't like mind reading but i wouldn't rule any dirty stuff out)

and i bet miner knows as well as the rest of us that the committee is worthless - it's just a harmless way of looking like you're doing something and throwing a bone to everyone in the mishmash Democrat constituency

hopefully they come back with a much smaller project that doesn't rely so much on conventions and isn't so reliant on state and federal money. even if you can tell a story that there are intangible benefits greater than the cost of the investment, i have a hard time believing those intangible benefits extend to long islanders and hawaiians who'd have to pay for it

Discount Rate Free Posting since 2/14/14

 

[xc84]

"The Gov has stayed far away and why shouldn't he? He gets the benefit of the proposal and doesn't have to put up the money! Actually, same thing goes for the County Exec. "

Proposing it so late and then pulling the plug so fast makes me think that if this wasn't their plan, it is certainly a nice consolation prize for them. (i don't like mind reading but i wouldn't rule any dirty stuff out)

and i bet miner knows as well as the rest of us that the committee is worthless - it's just a harmless way of looking like you're doing something and throwing a bone to everyone in the mishmash Democrat constituency

hopefully they come back with a much smaller project that doesn't rely so much on conventions and isn't so reliant on state and federal money. even if you can tell a story that there are intangible benefits greater than the cost of the investment, i have a hard time believing those intangible benefits extend to long islanders and hawaiians who'd have to pay for it

First, you are giving Miner way too much credit. She was trying to save face with the task force and now she just has more egg on her face. Second, a state funded project should not have to benefit the entire state...just something within the state. Places in the state get state money because they are IN THE STATE. Syracuse is part of NYS. I am shocked that you are not wailing against projects in Long Island that have no benefit to Upstate. Third, if a new stadium is to be built, build it right. Don't build some cheapo POC that no one really wants. In the end, I think it will happen and we will see you in your Don Quixote outfit outside of the new retractable-roof dome that will be the envy of any small city.

 

[Millhouse]

First, you are giving Miner way too much credit. She was trying to save face with the task force and now she just has more egg on her face. Second, a state funded project should not have to benefit the entire state...just something within the state. Places in the state get state money because they are IN THE STATE. Syracuse is part of NYS. I am shocked that you are not wailing against projects in Long Island that have no benefit to Upstate. Third, if a new stadium is to be built, build it right. Don't build some cheapo POC that no one really wants. In the end, I think it will happen and we will see you in your Don Quixote outfit outside of the new retractable-roof dome that will be the envy of any small city.

this is getting frustrating. i didn't use the words "saving face" but "looking like you're doing something" is pretty close

i don't like paying for stuff that only benefits long island either. i suspect that those threads would be even less welcomed.

people who don't like SU and don't want to pay for the stadium might prefer a cheapo POC. everyone forgets about those people

so many stadiums keep the top up on their convertibles all the time (houston), save money and put a normal roof on it. that's an easy way to save some money.

 

[xc84]

this is getting frustrating. i didn't use the words "saving face" but "looking like you're doing something" is pretty close

i don't like paying for stuff that only benefits long island either. i suspect that those threads would be even less welcomed.

people who don't like SU and don't want to pay for the stadium might prefer a cheapo POC. everyone forgets about those people

so many stadiums keep the top up on their convertibles all the time (houston), save money and put a normal roof on it. that's an easy way to save some money.

No need to be frustrated. I am not. I understand you don't like the idea of a publicly funded, publicly owned stadium of the kind conceptualized in the proposal. I get it. I understand it. I don't agree with you and in the end, I think what we get will be more like what I want than what you want. If not, we will both be content with SU funding dome improvements. Either way, count me as content. The main thing is, what you like paying for or not is not really a factor here. People who have kids in private schools or people with no kids in school don't like paying for public schools. So?

PS: I actually agree with the comment about fixed roof v. retractable. Retractable is not necessary. But I'd not complain about it if they get one. I can't recall what example I saw (Minnesota?) but I think it showed that retractable v. non-retractable was +$60M for the former.

 

[Millhouse]

No need to be frustrated. I am not. I understand you don't like the idea of a publicly funded, publicly owned stadium of the kind conceptualized in the proposal. I get it. I understand it. I don't agree with you and in the end, I think what we get will be more like what I want than what you want. If not, we will both be content with SU funding dome improvements. Either way, count me as content. The main thing is, what you like paying for or not is not really a factor here. People who have kids in private schools or people with no kids in school don't like paying for public schools. So?

PS: I actually agree with the comment about fixed roof v. retractable. Retractable is not necessary. But I'd not complain about it if they get one. I can't recall what example I saw (Minnesota?) but I think it showed that retractable v. non-retractable was +$60M for the former.

i miss the old days when 60 million counted as real money!

 

[xc84]

i miss the old days when 60 million counted as real money!

No need to miss them. Minnesota didn't go with the retractable roof. I just looked at its siting and can't figure out where the parking will be though. Looks like the Carrier dome...surrounded by buildings.

 

[GoSU96]

No need to miss them. Minnesota didn't go with the retractable roof. I just looked at its siting and can't figure out where the parking will be though. Looks like the Carrier dome...surrounded by buildings.

Vikings stadium is a version of what should be done here on steroids.

Multi-use, multi-configurable, a huge part of the stands push back in order to allow a baseball configuration.

They are building it out to FIFA standards.

Closed roof, but lots of glass to open it up.

Again the last two major Euro facilities are 50K, grass field, retractable, multi-configuration for less than $500M.

 

[Millhouse]

Vikings stadium is a version of what should be done here on steroids.

Multi-use, multi-configurable, a huge part of the stands push back in order to allow a baseball configuration.

They are building it out to FIFA standards.

Closed roof, but lots of glass to open it up.

Again the last two major Euro facilities are 50K, grass field, retractable, multi-configuration for less than $500M.

is there any video of how the multi configuration actually works? i've only seen animations

 

[GoSU96]

is there any video of how the multi configuration actually works? i've only seen animations

 

[supp]

People who have kids in private schools or people with no kids in school don't like paying for public schools. So?

Not exactly a dynamite analogy. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that education is not a public good. Making sure that we have a well-informed, highly skilled, prepared for the future society is to all our benefit. Providing public funds for a private university to have a state-of-the art stadium to schmooze their donors and ticket holders to have seats and concourses that can contain their fat asses is not quite something that's to all our benefit.

 

[GoSU96]

Another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-EkwlMIhPk

 

[Millhouse]

Not exactly a dynamite analogy. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that education is not a public good. Making sure that we have a well-informed, highly skilled, prepared for the future society is to all our benefit. Providing public funds for a private university to have a state-of-the art stadium to schmooze their donors and ticket holders to have seats and concourses that can contain their fat asses is not quite something that's to all our benefit.

something having positive externalities isn't the same as it being a non-excludeable (can't keep people from enjoying the benefits who don't pay), non-rivalrous (the benefits to me don't take away any benefits from you) public good.

good for the public is much broader than a public good (there aren't many of those). some things with positive externalities get subsidized, some don't.

neither are public goods but education does much more good for the public than sports arenas.

i'm just being fussy here but people use the term public good wrong all the time

 

[GoSU96]

Not exactly a dynamite analogy. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that education is not a public good. Making sure that we have a well-informed, highly skilled, prepared for the future society is to all our benefit. Providing public funds for a private university to have a state-of-the art stadium to schmooze their donors and ticket holders to have seats and concourses that can contain their fat asses is not quite something that's to all our benefit.

Stadiums have been public facilities since man started gathering in cities.

They have been funded, built, and operated as public entities much, much, much, much longer (as in thousands of years) than publicly funded general education.

And again, SU would be one, a major core tenant obviously, but just one tenant. And SU serves the role that multiple professional franchises do in larger cities.

 

[Millhouse]

Another one.

merci

looks expensive to me but of course some time lapse of the dome would look expensive to me too. the lights went off a lot - was that over days? makes me wonder if they can turn it around fast enough to host the number of events they'd need to justify what they're spending.

it's cool though, for sure.

 

[Millhouse]

Stadiums have been public facilities since man started gathering in cities.

They have been funded, built, and operated as public entities much, much, much, much longer (as in thousands of years) than publicly funded general education.

And again, SU would be one, a major core tenant obviously, but just one tenant. And SU serves the role that multiple professional franchises do in larger cities.

how are they any more public than other business? some swanky restaurant is a public facility too. you have to pay to get in and if you don't have enough money, you don't get in

stadium is just a lot bigger but it's not like a park open to the public

 

[supp]

Stadiums have been public facilities since man started gathering in cities.

They have been funded, built, and operated as public entities much, much, much, much longer (as in thousands of years) than publicly funded general education.

And again, SU would be one, a major core tenant obviously, but just one tenant. And SU serves the role that multiple professional franchises do in larger cities.

Not true. Stadiums were part of education. The Greek gymnasium was a place of intellectual pursuits as much as athletic ones. That's why high schools in Germany are still called gymnasiums. That's why poetry was an event in the Olympics. Doubtful, though, that the stadium serves this double purpose for us today.

 

[supp]

something having positive externalities isn't the same as it being a non-excludeable (can't keep people from enjoying the benefits who don't pay), non-rivalrous (the benefits to me don't take away any benefits from you) public good.

good for the public is much broader than a public good (there aren't many of those). some things with positive externalities get subsidized, some don't.

neither are public goods but education does much more good for the public than sports arenas.

i'm just being fussy here but people use the term public good wrong all the time

By that definition, I'm not sure there is anything out there we could at least define as a non-rivalrous public good.

 

[GoSU96]

something having positive externalities isn't the same as it being a non-excludeable (can't keep people from enjoying the benefits who don't pay), non-rivalrous (the benefits to me don't take away any benefits from you) public good.

good for the public is much broader than a public good (there aren't many of those). some things with positive externalities get subsidized, some don't.

neither are public goods but education does much more good for the public than sports arenas.

i'm just being fussy here but people use the term public good wrong all the time

Fine, stadiums are certainty and traditionally within the acknowledged sphere of goods and services provided by public entities. Again, just like parks and museums. There is nothing unusual in them being public facilities. Sort of like a the War Memorial, an Onondaga County facility in the heart of the City of Syracuse.

 

[Millhouse]

By that definition, I'm not sure there is anything out there we could at least define as a non-rivalrous public good.

national defense, roads (assuming that it's too big a hassle to put tolls everywhere), clean air. but yeah there's not much. those are obvious. too many people just call whatever they like a public good like some of those things when really it's a lot more debatable. if we're going to do non-public goods, they should focus on the poor. stadiums so far down the list...