KJ

[jordoo]

These posts have been moved from the Tyus Battle thread - have at it.

Doin work!

 

[pearl31]

These posts have been moved from the Tyus Battle thread - have at it.

thank you for this
(and all the other work you do 'round here)

 

[longislandcuse]

How are people shocked by this? Y'all are acting like we became Boston College overnight and should be ok with a freshman Point Guard who was downright awful.. Not mediocre, he was bad.

It sucks and I feel bad for the kid but this is big business. A lot of people don't like to hear that but it is, especially when the NCAA ***** you over and takes away some scholly's. Even if we get one back per year, we can't afford to have dead weight on this team. Right now we have two in Kaleb and Chino.

We have to contend with Duke and UNC every year. Not sure if you guys are aware of that yet...

 

[rosconey]

lets hope your wrong - cant pass on a 7-2 dude who is a top 100 recruit -look at how rak turned out

and the kid wasnt supposed to start last season- early entry to the nba forced the job on him and he wasnt ready for it- jimmys track record on guards is good enough for me to have faith the kid will come around and be solid this season

 

[RF2044]

How are people shocked by this? Y'all are acting like we became Boston College overnight and should be ok with a freshman Point Guard who was downright awful.. Not mediocre, he was bad.

It sucks and I feel bad for the kid but this is big business. A lot of people don't like to hear that but it is, especially when the NCAA ***** you over and takes away some scholly's. Even if we get one back per year, we can't afford to have dead weight on this team. Right now we have two in Kaleb and Chino.

We have to contend with Duke and UNC every year. Not sure if you guys are aware of that yet...

This assessment is going to look pretty foolish when Kaleb shows improvement this year.

 

[longislandcuse]

This assessment is going to look pretty foolish when Kaleb shows improvement this year.

I would LOVE to eat crow on this topic.

 

[RF2044]

I would LOVE to eat crow on this topic.

That's cool. Over the years, the hoops forum has done an incredibly poor job in general of projecting player potential and where various players are on their developmental curves. KJ was decidedly subpar last year, but he was the HAND PICKED lead guard that the staff went after. Let's see how much / if any sophomore improvement he shows before writing him off.

And for the record, I've heard mixed reports about Joseph's off-season. A source I trust indicated that he's going to show a big sophomore jump. A different source that I also trust has indicated that the staff is ready to move on. Both of these sources are rock solid and have provided tremendous insight over he years, so where does the truth lie? I guess we'll see in October.

 

[pearl31]

a freshman Point Guard who was downright awful.. Not mediocre, he was bad.

with even the tiniest bit of perspective and reason applied, this sentiment becomes all but ridiculous. Come on.

 

[OttoMets]

... A different source that I also trust has indicated that the staff is ready to move on. Both of these sources are rock solid and have provided tremendous insight over he years, so where does the truth lie? I guess we'll see in October.

As you say, we'll have to wait and see. But I'm surprised and disappointed to learn this. I've been predicting a big improvement in Joseph's production this year and would hate to see him not even get a chance as a starter.

 

[RF2044]

As you say, we'll have to wait and see. But I'm surprised and disappointed to learn this. I've been predicting a big improvement in Joseph's production this year and would hate to see him not even get a chance as a starter.

Ditto. Like I said, I've heard diametrically opposed info from two sources that have great ties to the program, who's observations / predictions have generally been spot on.

I'm rooting for KJ to succeed. I'll be surprised if he doesn't.

 

[longislandcuse]

with even the tiniest bit of perspective and reason applied, this sentiment becomes all but ridiculous. Come on.

Potential aside, how can you seriously say he wasn't awful last year? If that's mediocre than Tyler Roberson could've been a lottery pick if he went pro.

 

[Dave85]

Potential aside, how can you seriously say he wasn't awful last year? If that's mediocre than Tyler Roberson could've been a lottery pick if he went pro.

He wasn't as good as TE. But his numbers were in line with other freshmen.

 

[cuseincincy]

There is no possible way that the staff has given up on a point guard after one year of being thrown into the starting lineup as a freshman.

Remember Michael Edwards? Did it under similar situation. Even tried to replace him with a small forward. Not sure where "no possible way" comes from when its been done before.

 

[pfister1]

As you say, we'll have to wait and see. But I'm surprised and disappointed to learn this. I've been predicting a big improvement in Joseph's production this year and would hate to see him not even get a chance as a starter.

We talk about these things like its a fait acompli. Even if the staff has soured on him a bit, its not like he's lost his scholarship or we've made changes in next season's roster that will preclude him from winning back their trust and getting minutes. If he comes into the pre season and shows he's made improvement and works his butt off in practices and early games, I would imagine he'll get ample court time. If he comes in and looks like he's picking up where we left off last year then I wouldn't be surprised if JB looks to someone else to be the starter and get the lion's share of the minutes....especially if we have an elite recruit on the way who can replace him the following year.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Maybe my perceptions were skewed by the relative greatness of Pearl Washington, but when I was a freshman in the Dome, it seemed like an absolute joke when Sherman Douglas would spell him. He was nowhere near being "The General" at that time, and he seemed inept and more than a few steps 'down' from Pearl. So...



[Please don't make me respond to some schmendrick who thinks I'm suggesting KJ = Sherm.]

 

[Scotch]

He wasn't as good as TE. But his numbers were in line with other freshmen.

I think people overrate the impact Tyler Ennis has had on the assessments of Kaleb. Reasonable fans weren't expecting an all-conference season, and understand that he was thrown into the deep end a year earlier than planned. But taking all of that out of the equation, and just comparing him to the average high-major freshman guard - he struggled. Young PGs have been making positive impacts across the country for years now. It's fair to have been disappointed with his play even without the comparisons to Tyler.

 

[RF2044]

Remember Michael Edwards? Did it under similar situation. Even tried to replace him with a small forward. Not sure where "no possible way" comes from when its been done before.

Awfull comparison on multiple levels. First, Michael Edwards was who we had to settle for after losing out on Kenny Anderson, who we were all in for, as well as several plan B candidates [including Shawn Golden, who ended up at South Carolina]. Edwards was reasonably highly rated, but he was a "settle." By way of comparison, Kaleb Joseph was the top guy the staff identified, and they turned down two other candidates who were willing to commit here in order to land Joseph. He's their guy.

Second, lots of factual inaccuracies in your assessment of what happened with Edwards. Edwards [my least favorite all time SU player, BTW] came in as a frosh and didn't start. Stevie Thompson and Billy Owens--the previous year's starting fowards--were the 89-90 team's starting backcourt, at least initially. When Stevie proved incapable of running the team, Edwards was shifted into the starting lineup, not the other way around.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Maybe my perceptions were skewed by the relative greatness of Pearl Washington, but when I was a freshman in the Dome, it seemed like an absolute joke when Sherman Douglas would spell him. He was nowhere near being "The General" at that time, and he seemed inept and more than a few steps 'down' from Pearl. So...



[Please don't make me respond to some schmendrick who thinks I'm suggesting KJ = Sherm.]

Not my recollection at all. The team ran well, especially when JB would have Pearl and Sherm in together, and send Pearl to the baseline and let the other guard try to stop him.

 

[Flacusian]

For now Kaleb Joseph is on our team and deserves the support and encouragement of both the coaching staff and fans alike. I for one am going to withhold all judgement on the kid until this upcoming season unfolds a bit. It's been mentioned above by many how the kid was put into a position he and many of us did not expect him to be thrust into. He had some problems his freshman season as a result. Do people not remember how Chris McCulluough struggled mightily himself after his first couple games?

And there should be no surprise in the fact that the tenor of the programs recruitment is to find a BBD (bigger better deal) at any of the positions. In today's college basketball teams make ups are characterized by a high level of transience. The very fact that Ennis moved on after one season is the prefect example of that. To continue to complete the staff has to constantly be looking at bringing in talent since there is such a high level of premature NBA stoked departures. This coupled with the fact we are dealing with a truncated scholarship number may put pressure to do things with respect to the roster which the coaching staff, under normal conditions wouldn't do. To me that may lend credence to some of the claims that KJ has been recruited over. The pressure to win is intense.

For now KJ is on the roster. Let's get behind him and hope he does well.

 

[RoatanCuse]

All this stuff about KJ is nuts. I have no idea what people have heard or been told, but I find it wholly unbelievable that our coaching staff has "written off" anybody who is on the team right now. They are coaches and teachers of the game - you don't get to be that by writing people off. Especially somebody like Mike Hopkins. He recruited KJ and saw potential in him and I personally think he and the rest of the staff will work their butts off to help him maximize that potential. I could understand if they have arrived at a point of lowering some expectations for him, to the point of feeling like another guard is a recruiting priority (Battle being that guard), but that doesn't mean they have given up on him. I think that wording is what is putting people off. I absolutely refuse to believe that this staff will completely write somebody off unless they just aren't willing to work or if they are an attitude or behavior problem. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest KJ is a problem kid and if his work ethic on defense is questioned, I'd say that is part of his maturing process and the coaches will work on that with him.

After all, this is a KJ thread, no? Houston, good perspective about the staff not wanting to quit on him. Add to this the ego factor of one of the coaches having to give up on "his" guy at a meeting. It's quite a thing to admit failure among your peers. A few of these and he's off the recruiting trail, IMHO. No, as you say, they will push him as hard as they can until JB decides either way on KJ. In the meantime, it should be normal practice to add the best material we can every year. Just so happens that the position is now a weak link. Do we hope? Yes. Do we prepare plan B? Yes. Same as with Pearl and Douglas. The year they played together Pearl was spectacular, Douglas, as a freshman, was steady, but made some freshman errors, IMO. When Sherm took the reins the next year, he had made THE sophomore leap. An amazing leap! Let's hope KJ can do the same....but unfair to compare his frosh year with Sherm's. He is no Sherm...but then again, few are.

Lots of good posters on this thread. Interesting perspectives.

 

[Dave85]

I think people overrate the impact Tyler Ennis has had on the assessments of Kaleb. Reasonable fans weren't expecting an all-conference season, and understand that he was thrown into the deep end a year earlier than planned. But taking all of that out of the equation, and just comparing him to the average high-major freshman guard - he struggled. Young PGs have been making positive impacts across the country for years now. It's fair to have been disappointed with his play even without the comparisons to Tyler.

I still think it is an little unfair in the sense that many other PGs in previous years had upper class men PGs to share the load. He was under a lot of scrutiny and pressure on a big stage. I think most of issues were mental problems. He had freshmen-itus. If you are going to go down the comparison path every other player on the team had issues at the various positions. I think we are going to see a very good improvement this season from Kaleb.

I think TR and KJ are going to make the biggest impact this season. G could make a big leap also. TC will win 2 or 3 games on his own. We are really going to struggle at center so PG may be no longer in focus.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I understand people being frustrated with the thought of Joseph being "recruited over", but that is through no fault of his own if that is the case. I don't even think it has to do with his struggles on offense, but his lack of effort and complete inability to play any defense. People may think it is unfair, but if the player shows no effort to improve on the defensive end, how can you expect him to improve on offense? It's completely fair to criticize his lack of effort, and a lot worse has been said about other players on this forum over the years.

 

[RF2044]

I understand people being frustrated with the thought of Joseph being "recruited over", but that is through no fault of his own if that is the case. I don't even think it has to do with his struggles on offense, but his lack of effort and complete inability to play any defense. People may think it is unfair, but if the player shows no effort to improve on the defensive end, how can you expect him to improve on offense? It's completely fair to criticize his lack of effort, and a lot worse has been said about other players on this forum over the years.

Criticizing a player's effort is 100% in bounds, but let's shelve the talk about improvement when nobody has actually seen him play yet in year 2. How do you know he "shows no effort to improve" without seeing what he's done this offseason?

I have yet to see anybody provide a first hand Melo Center account of his game / physical improvement since the year ended, so making definitive assumptions about whether he'll show improvement or not and what the results will be doesn't seem like a very good predictor of what's going to happen in his second season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Criticizing a player's effort is 100% in bounds, but let's shelve the talk about improvement when nobody has actually seen him play yet in year 2. How do you know he "shows no effort to improve" without seeing what he's done this offseason?

I have yet to see anybody provide a first hand Melo Center account of his game / physical improvement since the year ended, so making definitive assumptions about whether he'll show improvement or not and what the results will be doesn't seem like a very good predictor of what's going to happen in his second season.

Yeah i didn't mean to criticize him for this year, but the effort part is what I believe lots of fans and I guess apparently coaches have issues with. Hopefully that changes this year.

 

[jordoo]

As far as effort goes you guys are correct. At a minimum Kaleb has to give effort constantly on defense this year to get minutes. I think he's very tied to his emotions and when he got down on himself and lost confidence it effected his effort. I also think he was simply overwhelmed and trying to improve in season in every area of the game which is pretty much impossible. He stopped doing the things he was prepared to do well in year one and then he started questioning if he could do them well anymore. It was trial by fire and the kid got burned up pretty bad. Its up to him to decide how much that fire is going to harden him for thsi coming season. I still believe he can be an very good college PG. I do feel its very important for him gain some emotional control because it was clear to me that once he was down it was hard for him. He also had spurts of great play where you could see he was soaring on an emotional high.