Looks like Mark Coyle has quite the mess at Minnesota | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Looks like Mark Coyle has quite the mess at Minnesota

The vast majority of girls don't want to get gang banged by a football team while others cheer them on.

With your daughter going to school soon, i strongly recommend you read the book Missoula by Jon Krakauer. It opened my eyes to acquaintance rape and just the long term effects of s e xual assault on victims.


Really hope Coyle calls the players' bluff. Reasonable doubt is such a high standard, fortunately universities aren't bound by it.

My daughter is not going to college. She has a career choice right out of high school.

You are taking this in a direction not consistent with my comments. A book, "majority", effects does NOT mean she wasn't consensual to this situation. Vast majority does not equal all.

And I, for one, am glad we have reasonable doubt, otherwise our prisons would be filled a lot more than they actually are. But, I'll take this further, civil court doesn't require reasonable doubt. The bar for "conviction" is much lower. Knowing that, why did this woman and her attorney agree to not sue?
 
My daughter is not going to college. She has a career choice right out of high school.

You are taking this in a direction not consistent with my comments. A book, "majority", effects does NOT mean she wasn't consensual to this situation. Vast majority does not equal all.

And I, for one, am glad we have reasonable doubt, otherwise our prisons would be filled a lot more than they actually are. But, I'll take this further, civil court doesn't require reasonable doubt. The bar for "conviction" is much lower. Knowing that, why did this woman and her attorney agree to not sue?
It appears that there was a "settlement". At least that was mentioned.
 
My daughter is not going to college. She has a career choice right out of high school.

You are taking this in a direction not consistent with my comments. A book, "majority", effects does NOT mean she wasn't consensual to this situation. Vast majority does not equal all.

And I, for one, am glad we have reasonable doubt, otherwise our prisons would be filled a lot more than they actually are. But, I'll take this further, civil court doesn't require reasonable doubt. The bar for "conviction" is much lower. Knowing that, why did this woman and her attorney agree to not sue?

I'm incredibly glad we have reasonable doubt. I'm also glad that only applies to criminal proceedings and that schools aren't bound by it.

And about why she didn't sue, again, read the book. It takes a really strong person to subject themselves to cross examamination.
 
But, isn't that the rub? An investigation by the police department was done, evidence was presented, prosecutors saw it, not charges were pressed precisely due to the evidence. Now, all of a sudden they've been suspended?

Full disclosure, I have an 18-year old daughter. Fortunately for me, her final year of high school and her job are the most important things in her life right now. She has had one boyfriend and ended it quickly when she realized what he was about. She has no interest in men or s e x at this point in her life, believe it or not. That said, some girls do and some girls enjoy it for various reasons. It's not out the realm of possibility that this girl knew what she was doing and enjoyed every bit of it. It seems that that police department and prosecutor's office has come to that conclusion.

Have we not learned about the ineptitude of many police departments when it comes to sexual assault? I understand they can be frustrated in these cases because of the he said, she said aspect, but it is ever acceptable to have your son participate in this type of behavior? Should a school simply take the position that no charges were files and leave it at that?

The school has a right - no, a duty, to send the message that this type of behavior (gang sex, drunk or sober) is not acceptable and represents a risk to every female student on campus.
 
Have we not learned about the ineptitude of many police departments when it comes to s e xual assault? I understand they can be frustrated in these cases because of the he said, she said aspect, but it is ever acceptable to have your son participate in this type of behavior? Should a school simply take the position that no charges were files and leave it at that?

The school has a right - no, a duty, to send the message that this type of behavior (gang s e x, drunk or sober) is not acceptable and represents a risk to every female student on campus.

Sure, I'm not going to argue that. But, was it that they are punishing them for the "behavior" or for sexual assault? It seems they are arguing sexual assault occurred even though the prosecutors didn't come to that conclusion after reviewing all of the evidence.

And if you're going to take the argument that police departments are corrupt, then we can easily argue that schools have been implicit in destroying the lives of young men by not providing adequate due process (see Virginia and Duke). Fact is, the vast majority of police departments and prosecutors offices are not corrupt, so to take a few bad apples and apply it to all is dishonest. Lastly, it was not a he said, she said case. It was a they said, she said, and three separate video clips contradicting her claim case. It's disgusting this happened and was recorded, but in hindsight it looks like the recordings saved these men from prosecution.

Let's face it, universities are under all kinds of pressure from students on a myriad of issues. It is in their best interest to stand on the side of caution from a publicity standpoint.
 
I don't think Coyle has a mess on his hands in this,I think it is the coaching staff that is allowing the players to play after this.Coyle is doing it right,the head coach is not ....think Briles.

Ten players are probably saying she begged for it and she is saying she was raped and the authorities put a higher value to the words of the accused because of who they are. Would known street gang bangers get the benefit of the doubt here? No they wouldn't.
 
There's a difference between committing a crime and conduct unbecoming a college athlete (if there's a shred of integrity left). From that perspective, good for Coyle after their own internal investigation. The players aren't likely to win this PR battle.

As for him having to deal with this, I guess I've stopped caring. He had one very good accomplishment here. And we were left in better hands with someone who understands this place and wants to be here.
 
It appears this is very difficult case due to the lack of evidence, the spotty memory of the victim and the inconsistencies in her statements.

"Though she said her memory was spotty, she recalled Djam in a common area asking her to go up to his apartment. She would later testify that she had no intention of having sex.
She said she felt panicked when Djam walked her into his bedroom, but later testified that he never pushed her, prevented her from leaving or said anything threatening to her.
Asked during a court hearing why she didn’t leave, she said, “I felt scared, trapped, isolated with someone I felt had power over me.”
At some point, they began having sex. The police report said “she doesn’t have a recall about how the sex acts started.”"

Now it appears the initial, first sexual contact may not have been assault...However, what happened afterward appears to more likely have been assault with the gang sex/rape.

This right here is a typical response from someone who was sexually assaulted, no consent: “I was removing myself from my mind and my body to help myself from the pain and experience going on,” she testified.

This would cause me to lean on the side that a sexual assault did indeed occur.

Also, what comes into play in this situation is the Baylor mess. I think Minn's actions are result of Baylor's inactions and the resulting mess in that case. I am not saying it is wrong, I think they should be suspended, they are playing football, which is privilege not a right. I think the current football players are wrong...the admin can't discuss specifics because of student privacy issues and victim's rights.

Call their bluff and say ok, we are passing on the bowl game...cya next year...
 
On a slightly related note, there are a lot of slutty college girls on big time college campuses. Unfortunately, there are probably also a lot of horny predator-ish guys too.

*Note: I am NOT justifying the actions of these players at all*
 
There's a difference between committing a crime and conduct unbecoming a college athlete (if there's a shred of integrity left). From that perspective, good for Coyle after their own internal investigation. The players aren't likely to win this PR battle.

As for him having to deal with this, I guess I've stopped caring. He had one very good accomplishment here. And we were left in better hands with someone who understands this place and wants to be here.

But they didn't suspend them for "conduct unbecoming", they suspended them for allegations of sexual assault. Now, the next question is how will the school "prosecute" them? Most likely it will be in front of a student judiciary committee, which won't end well for the players.
 
Coyle gave us Dino so IMO he did more for SU football than any AD in recent memory. From there we upgraded with an ESPN guy who bleeds orange and will do a better job marketing and getting us on TV.

As far as I'm concerned it was a win / win for us. I have no ill will towards Coyle anymore.

And honestly good for him to throw the book at a bunch of ahole guys abusing a young woman. Too many of these guys get away with that BS and it's disgusting already.

Due process? Did the young woman get due process ? I have no time for that nonsense.

Exactly, the girl is the victim here, the 10 kids are sleazebags and the rest of the team should be ashamed of themselves. Being suspended from a bowl game is not being denied due process. sorry, it isn't, it's a freaking bowl game, they aren't being locked up. Why doesn't the team try and help Aleppo victims or something, instead of taking this "noble" stand for their 10 weasel teammates.

I am telling you, my daughter wants to go away to school, out West, maybe Berkeley(if we can hack that), I am all about University of Phoenix online college after reading another one of these sickening stories.
 
Wolitarsky said the players were incensed after a brief meeting with Coyle following Wednesday’s practice.

“We got no answers to our questions about why these kids were suspended when they were just found [innocent] by the law,” Wolitarsky said. “He basically told us that he didn’t have answers, and that led us to believe that this is kind of unjust. He has the power to reverse this, and he won’t.”

Ummm...they weren't found innocent or acquitted dumbass...this is a college student??! They weren't charged due to lack of evidence...big difference...
 
This right here is a typical response from someone who was s e xually assaulted, no consent: “I was removing myself from my mind and my body to help myself from the pain and experience going on,” she testified.

This would cause me to lean on the side that a s e xual assault did indeed occur.

I could see that and would agree with your assessment, however, three videos apparently showed her alert and being very acceptable. Is that reaction of someone removing herself from her mind and body? :noidea:
 
I could see that and would agree with your assessment, however, three videos apparently showed her alert and being very acceptable. Is that reaction of someone removing herself from her mind and body? :noidea:

Read and understand...but it sounds like the videos don't show the entire 90 minutes...at any time a person can change their mind and say no and/or stop...at the time if the other person presses on and forces the issue, it is then assault...According to what I have read, she didn't say no or stop during the first act, but when the other acts occurred she said no and stop and they continued and laughed...that is sexual assault...
 
Read and understand...but it sounds like the videos don't show the entire 90 minutes...at any time a person can change their mind and say no and/or stop...at the time if the other person presses on and forces the issue, it is then assault...According to what I have read, she didn't say no or stop during the first act, but when the other acts occurred she said no and stop and they continued and laughed...that is s e xual assault...

AFO, no need to get testy (ie, "Read and understand"). I'm just seeing this differently, that's all. I have two sons and a daughter. I would hate to see what's happening to either of them.
 
Exactly, the girl is the victim here, the 10 kids are sleazebags and the rest of the team should be ashamed of themselves. Being suspended from a bowl game is not being denied due process. sorry, it isn't, it's a freaking bowl game, they aren't being locked up. Why doesn't the team try and help Aleppo victims or something, instead of taking this "noble" stand for their 10 weasel teammates.

I am telling you, my daughter wants to go away to school, out West, maybe Berkeley(if we can hack that), I am all about University of Phoenix online college after reading another one of these sickening stories.

It's not about being suspended from a bowl - the recommendation is that several get expelled. The bowl is the player's leverage in this case.

Personally I'm not at all comfortable with the TITLE IX investigation processes for sexual assault at universities - these players certainly aren't saints, but it's going to take students with some leverage to "punch back" to bring the process under control. So while they may horrible people, I'm 100% on the players' side here.
 
AFO, no need to get testy (ie, "Read and understand"). I'm just seeing this differently, that's all. I have two sons and a daughter. I would hate to see what's happening to either of them.

Not getting testy...was just letting you that I have read about the videos and understand what they showed and what the cops/DA determined...
 
But, isn't that the rub? An investigation by the police department was done, evidence was presented, prosecutors saw it, not charges were pressed precisely due to the evidence. Now, all of a sudden they've been suspended?

Full disclosure, I have an 18-year old daughter. Fortunately for me, her final year of high school and her job are the most important things in her life right now. She has had one boyfriend and ended it quickly when she realized what he was about. She has no interest in men or s e x at this point in her life, believe it or not. That said, some girls do and some girls enjoy it for various reasons. It's not out the realm of possibility that this girl knew what she was doing and enjoyed every bit of it. It seems that that police department and prosecutor's office has come to that conclusion.
This is such a sensitive issue, and one must be careful to tread lightly so as not to risk misinterpretation of one's intent.
That being said, as a member of a frat at SU there were many times, at many wild parties and gatherings, where incidents such as you describe did indeed happen, and yes...each to my knowledge was consensual. Indeed, some young women compared notes and were remorseless about said encounters.
So...let's not be naive here. Not every woman is a pillar of virtue and honesty, and in as much as we need to hold those players accountable, its not beyond the scope that these types of incidents do happen, repeatedly, and from my experience, are usually consensual.
I knew several athletes at SU in the 80's and I have relatives and acquaintances currently or in the recent past, at different schools, who have related similar experiences as well. Again, times change and obviously each incident is different- there is no one size fits all here. But in this particular case, there WAS a video which apparently led authorities to conclude that the young woman was likely a willing participant, coherent, and under no apparent distress during the incident.
Hindsight being 20/20, and youth being the folly of the young, is it totally beyond comprehension that some sense of remorse comes into play following an incident such as this?
Again, I'm attempting to tread lightly here and am in no way excusing criminal or abhorrent predatory behavior. The young woman is adamant an assault took place, and she has the absolute right to seek redress. Obviously hormones and alcohol were also involved, adding more fuel to the fire. But these situations are not always stereo-typically black and white, and as difficult as it may be at times, its important to keep an open mind when dealing with them.
I hope I've adequately expressed myself in such a way so as NOT to invite the requisite cries of, "you're a male chauvinist, insensitive a-hole, who should be shunned and hanged for stating such garbage"...etc. etc, I'm simply trying to illicit mature dialog as to the matter at hand. JMHO
 
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Wolitarsky said the players were incensed after a brief meeting with Coyle following Wednesday’s practice.

“We got no answers to our questions about why these kids were suspended when they were just found [innocent] by the law,” Wolitarsky said. “He basically told us that he didn’t have answers, and that led us to believe that this is kind of unjust. He has the power to reverse this, and he won’t.”

Ummm...they weren't found innocent or acquitted dumbass...this is a college student??! They weren't charged due to lack of evidence...big difference...


Mark Coyle for whatever reason has not necessarily presented himself as an effective communicator.
 
Sure, I'm not going to argue that. But, was it that they are punishing them for the "behavior" or for s e xual assault? It seems they are arguing s e xual assault occurred even though the prosecutors didn't come to that conclusion after reviewing all of the evidence.

And if you're going to take the argument that police departments are corrupt, then we can easily argue that schools have been implicit in destroying the lives of young men by not providing adequate due process (see Virginia and Duke). Fact is, the vast majority of police departments and prosecutors offices are not corrupt, so to take a few bad apples and apply it to all is dishonest. Lastly, it was not a he said, she said case. It was a they said, she said, and three separate video clips contradicting her claim case. It's disgusting this happened and was recorded, but in hindsight it looks like the recordings saved these men from prosecution.

Let's face it, universities are under all kinds of pressure from students on a myriad of issues. It is in their best interest to stand on the side of caution from a publicity standpoint.

Are you arguing that these athletes didnt act immorally? Is your position a school cannot punish immoral behavior?
 
Not getting testy...was just letting you that I have read about the videos and understand what they showed and what the cops/DA determined...

My apologies. I took it to mean that I needed to "read and understand".
 
Basically my thinking is this is: Do I think it was initially an assault? No. Did it become an assault when the other guys got involved? Yes. Disclaimer here, I am only basing my opinions on the information on hand in what I have read. Therefore since it appears an assault, or in this case multiple assaults, occurred I think whomever was involved should be suspended. As I have said, playing football is a privilege, not a right. Do these players have a right to boycott? Sure they do, but the university in turn has right to call their bluff and cancel their participation in the bowl game. It appears the reason the university is not giving details because they are respecting the rights of all the students involved...especially the victim's, which I think is the most important thing here...
 
Are you arguing that these athletes didnt act immorally? Is your position a school cannot punish immoral behavior?

No and no. But, from the way I read it the school isn't punishing them for immoral behavior, they are punishing them because they believe a sexual assault occurred. To me, that's more than an immoral behavior, that's criminal.

If Coyne would have come out and said, "the players are being punished because they violated the student conduct code and/or behavior unbecoming" then I wouldn't have said a word. Hell, BYU does it every day.
 
Really hope Coyle sticks to his guns and says fine we will shut it down.. Lot of smoke/ fire stuff here. He said she said, either way it's not what I would want 10 college students in any capacity involved in, does it happen? Sure, but has anyone just looked at situations with intoxicated people over their years and said. Of the 10, nobody stood up and said, this isn't right? Really, What.
 
Basically my thinking is this is: Do I think it was initially an assault? No. Did it become an assault when the other guys got involved? Yes. Disclaimer here, I am only basing my opinions on the information on hand in what I have read. Therefore since it appears an assault, or in this case multiple assaults, occurred I think whomever was involved should be suspended. As I have said, playing football is a privilege, not a right. Do these players have a right to boycott? Sure they do, but the university in turn has right to call their bluff and cancel their participation in the bowl game. It appears the reason the university is not giving details because they are respecting the rights of all the students involved...especially the victim's, which I think is the most important thing here...

agree 100%
 

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