Looks like Mark Coyle has quite the mess at Minnesota

[NKR1978]

This all seems very remininiscent of the Jonny Flynn Train incident about a decade ago.

Really shameful chapter in SU basketball history. I have thought about and have been ashamed of my reaction to that at the time.

 

[JackBauer44]

I think an interesting fact that now many people know is important to remember for college punishment details. When en loco parentis was adapted into higher education way back in the day - suspensions at the college level were operated the idea that the incident "more likely than not occurred" and I've had many deans and directors tell me that innocent until proven guilty was not their SOP. I have no idea if that's ever been challenged in a court of law.

 

[Moontan]

I think Mizzou set the precident when they caved to boycotting players and Wolfe resigned. Minnesota can take all the boycotting players' scholarships away...they're just accepting imploding the program by doing so because recruiting there afterwords would be borderline impossible. The players have some leverage here and are using it - and if it was OK at Mizzou to boycott over perceived injustice, it's OK here.

Mizzou was, is?, in the midst of racial turmoil.

UMN should be able to meet with the football captains and explain:

1. we know that things happened
2. things that are not acceptable
3. things that violate the code of conduct
4. that is why the 10 players are facing consequences
5. the fact that legal charges have not, yet, been filed doesn't mean that the 10 are innocent. It also doesn't impact our findings.
6. if players want to boycott the program, that's fine. A decision is due by noon on Saturday. We will withdraw from the bowl game unless the players change their mind.
7. players who pledge to play and later boycott the game may be subject to loss of their scholarship starting in January.

 

[Cusefan95]

Mizzou was, is?, in the midst of racial turmoil.

UMN should be able to meet with the football captains and explain:

1. we know that things happened
2. things that are not acceptable
3. things that violate the code of conduct
4. that is why the 10 players are facing consequences
5. the fact that legal charges have not, yet, been filed doesn't mean that the 10 are innocent. It also doesn't impact our findings.
6. if players want to boycott the program, that's fine. A decision is due by noon on Saturday. We will withdraw from the bowl game unless the players change their mind.
7. players who pledge to play and later boycott the game may be subject to loss of their scholarship starting in January.

If my son was on the team and opted to continue with the boycott, I would be totally in support of him. Hopefully the Minnesota players also feel they have the support of their parents as well.

I said I don't think these guys are saints - but the Title IX kangaroo courts are a pathetic joke. It's going to take students with some leverage to push back...hopefully this is the start of that pushback.

 

[DeGrozz]

Mizzou was, is?, in the midst of racial turmoil.

UMN should be able to meet with the football captains and explain:

1. we know that things happened
2. things that are not acceptable
3. things that violate the code of conduct
4. that is why the 10 players are facing consequences
5. the fact that legal charges have not, yet, been filed doesn't mean that the 10 are innocent. It also doesn't impact our findings.
6. if players want to boycott the program, that's fine. A decision is due by noon on Saturday. We will withdraw from the bowl game unless the players change their mind.
7. players who pledge to play and later boycott the game may be subject to loss of their scholarship starting in January.

You gotta believe that 1 through 5 have already happened though.

I don't necessarily believe that players met with Coyle and Coyle gave them the runaround. I think they asked questions ("How come the cops dropped the charges and you keep hounding us?") and got answers that they didn't like ("Whether the DA believes he can successfully bring charges or not, it is on record that multiple players had sex with an intoxicated girl, who we believe was not able to consent, and that is contrary to our schools code of ethics/conduct.").

 

[Moontan]

If my son was on the team and opted to continue with the boycott, I would be totally in support of him. Hopefully the Minnesota players also feel they have the support of their parents as well.

I said I don't think these guys are saints - but the Title IX kangaroo courts are a pathetic joke. It's going to take students with some leverage to push back...hopefully this is the start of that pushback.

So, (assuming the allegations are true) you'd be OK with your son passing up his scholarship opportunity to support some gang rapists? And, if you are, how do you justify this to your wife and daughter?

 

[Cusefan95]

If my son was on the team and opted to continue with the boycott, I would be totally in support of him. Hopefully the Minnesota players also feel they have the support of their parents as well.

I said I don't think these guys are saints - but the Title IX kangaroo courts are a pathetic joke. It's going to take students with some leverage to push back...hopefully this is the start of that pushback.

As an addendum, if someone that boycotted came to me in the future looking for employment, it would not factor in negatively in my decision. I think the idea this is going to haunt the players is massively overstated - I'd much rather have people who stand up for what they believe is right and live with the consequences over a coward who caves due to fear.

 

[Cusefan95]

So, (assuming the allegations are true) you'd be OK with your son passing up his scholarship opportunity to support some gang rapists? And, if you are, how do you justify this to your wife and daughter?

I think you summed up my reason perfectly - the people passing judgement on these guys as gang rapists when they haven't been charged (like you) disgust me. My son not being like you would make me proud.

Having had this conversation with my wife this morning, I already know I wouldn't need to justify my position to her.

 

[721Comstock]

I think you summed up my reason perfectly - the people passing judgement on these guys as gang rapists when they haven't been charged (like you) disgust me. My son not being like you would make me proud.

Having had this conversation with my wife this morning, I already know I wouldn't need to justify my position to her.

Not being able to charge them with rape (due to lack of evidence, etc) is NOT the same as not being able to charge them for violating school moral codes and rules.

The levels of "evidence" necessary for one, may be quite a bit different than for the other.
They can be "innocent" of one crime, and very much guilty of another.

 

[Moontan]

I think you summed up my reason perfectly - the people passing judgement on these guys as gang rapists when they haven't been charged (like you) disgust me. My son not being like you would make me proud.

Having had this conversation with my wife this morning, I already know I wouldn't need to justify my position to her.

You're right. Nothing happened. Coyle just wants to deep-6 the UMN football program.

Louisville didn't cheat against Wake Forest either.

And when a DA gets involved and presses charges then it definitely means that something happened. Right...

 

[Pyle]

You're right. Nothing happened. Coyle just wants to deep-6 the UMN football program.

Louisville didn't cheat against Wake Forest either.

And when a DA gets involved and presses charges then it definitely means that something happened. Right...

Yeah and white kids assaulted a bunch of black girls at UAlbany and were admonished by the administration for it, and the Duke lacrosse team raped some girl and was publicly tried and convicted on Nancy Grace, season cancelled, etc, and Jonny Flynn and a bunch of guys raped some coed too. Because nobody ever has lied about stuff like this. Violate the moral code? Fine, I violated my college's moral code every Fri and Sat for my first 3 years, you know the one about not drinking underage or doing illegal drugs roflmao. Here's what we know, some girl got drunk, agreed to go back to some guys room, and had sex with a bunch of guys who seem to have video evidence of consent. Suspend them a few games or maybe the season for conduct unbecoming, but this idea that these guys are gang rapists like in The Accused isn't supported and those jumping to conclusions are as guilt as the Duke Lax DA who ended her career. Sorry but DA's are and if they thought they could bring these guys down they would in a heartbeat. It's the Gophers, it's not the Tide or FSU. I don't think the religion of football is as strong in Minneapolis as it is in Tuscaloosa.

 

[Lou_C]

So, (assuming the allegations are true) you'd be OK with your son passing up his scholarship opportunity to support some gang rapists? And, if you are, how do you justify this to your wife and daughter?

You can't say "(assuming they are true)" and make that statement. You don't get to.

The cops have the evidence and don't see the basis for the charge.

What evidence there is lends towards consent (without being comprehensive enough to prove 100% consent for the entirety of the encounter), and I don't believe she claims that she resisted or withdrew consent after the first two.

Is it highly scummy? Yeah. Would I be very disappointed if my son was involved? Definitely. He would not have to worry about his Minnesota scholarship, he'd be coming home if he was my son.

But do you feel comfortable fielding a football team (or faculty, or university) with 100% people that adhere to your proscribed sexual morals? Might best start rooting for BYU, and only BYU then.

I have zero problem if there was a football decision to suspend these guys based on bad judgement, lack of respect for women, and/or embarrassing the program. I think if I was a coach I'd have a program ban on these multi-guy/one girl encounters, no matter how consensual, because it leads to nothing but trouble.

But I think the disciplinary action they are facing from the school however, under the circumstances I've read, is highly unfair.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I get it, he left our school unexpectedly. Something nobody was happy about.

BUT

By all accounts, he was a great guy. Took the time to individually address personal emails. Just a really decent guy.

Although it does seem like a little bit of karma, I'd never wish this upon a guy like Coyle. Who by the way, sold his @$$ off to get us Dino Babers.

And in the end, we got Wildhack. Someone I think will prove to be a long-term home run.

I don't know if he was a great guy or not, but was amused everyone thought he was here to clean up the athletic department because he looked like an extra from The Book of Mormon. Prior to us, he had stints at such bastions of learning and integrity as Minny-soda, FSU, Kentucky and Boise State. He's a mercenary, just like the rest of them.

 

[TheCusian]

My take on Coyle is that he's not good at conversation with people he has an issue with. All the hard stuff he had to do he here he "ripped the bandaid off" and got out of there. Why talk to the ACC when it's easier to just fly to Minnesota? Why meet with the players when you can just send down "a decree"?

There's a pattern and it's definitely a "golden rodent" - just not sure it's a beaver. More like a Golden Weasel.

 

[Moontan]

You can't say "(assuming they are true)" and make that statement. You don't get to.

Of course I do. It's what I would tell my sons. Making it clear that they'd better be sure of what they're doing before putting their reputations, and possibly scholarship and athletic participation, on the line.

I suspect that most of the team knows what did, or didn't, happen. As others here have indicated, hopefully they don't equate the lack of current charges with innocence.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I think an interesting fact that now many people know is important to remember for college punishment details. When en loco parentis was adapted into higher education way back in the day - suspensions at the college level were operated the idea that the incident "more likely than not occurred" and I've had many deans and directors tell me that innocent until proven guilty was not their SOP. I have no idea if that's ever been challenged in a court of law.

As long as there is due process.
It's not criminal.

 

[retro44]

Mizzou was, is?, in the midst of racial turmoil.

UMN should be able to meet with the football captains and explain:

1. we know that things happened
2. things that are not acceptable
3. things that violate the code of conduct
4. that is why the 10 players are facing consequences
5. the fact that legal charges have not, yet, been filed doesn't mean that the 10 are innocent. It also doesn't impact our findings.
6. if players want to boycott the program, that's fine. A decision is due by noon on Saturday. We will withdraw from the bowl game unless the players change their mind.
7. players who pledge to play and later boycott the game may be subject to loss of their scholarship starting in January.

Think of the Winston investigation that there was no real investigation and the Art Briles deal and I am sure there is many others. Boosters and coaches can sway the police very easy and especially like the Fla.St. deal where many on the force worked security for years on gameday at the stadium and one I believe if I am correct was very high up in the booster club. How does Minny treat police on gameday?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Have we not learned about the ineptitude of many police departments when it comes to s e xual assault? I understand they can be frustrated in these cases because of the he said, she said aspect, but it is ever acceptable to have your son participate in this type of behavior? Should a school simply take the position that no charges were files and leave it at that?

The school has a right - no, a duty, to send the message that this type of behavior (gang s e x, drunk or sober) is not acceptable and represents a risk to every female student on campus.

That ineptitude cuts both ways. Lots of innocent people charged and or convicted. Just saw one where a girl set up a fake FB page to stalk herself and claim it was her boyfriend, who was actually charged.

 

[jgeorge322]

I think an interesting fact that now many people know is important to remember for college punishment details. When en loco parentis was adapted into higher education way back in the day - suspensions at the college level were operated the idea that the incident "more likely than not occurred" and I've had many deans and directors tell me that innocent until proven guilty was not their SOP. I have no idea if that's ever been challenged in a court of law.

This maxim doesnt apply to colleges and has been outright denied in most jurisdictions. Colleges dont babysit adult students.

 

[retro44]

Joe Mixon video released

Dam he knocked her out cold with a vicious Mike Tyson right to the jaw.He was not messing around with her.

 

[TexanMark]

Really shameful chapter in SU basketball history. I have thought about and have been ashamed of my reaction to that at the time.

I'm not ashamed

All I heard were partial 2nd hand stories that something happened...not enough evidence to draw a conclusion IMHO.

 

[jgeorge322]

I said previously from what I read, they were suspending them for s e xual assault. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what the school said. :noidea:

As for your analogy, the difference is that evidence was presented to prosecutors. They don't believe any laws were broken. You believe otherwise. That's fine. I don't agree with you based on the little bit that's available to us.

Here you go boss...

Minnesota player suspensions, boycott could upend Holiday Bowl

Still defending?

 

[AZOrange]

Good for him. I have 2 daughters - enough of this bullsht.

Clearly you want to avoid a Duke lax situation, but I see nothing wrong in suspending a kid until the facts are out. Not one.

This isn't innocent until proven guilty. These are kids not playing for a team until they figure it out.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[KellySyracuse]

maybe when the guys were standing in line to have sex with someone that was intoxicated their good sense should have kicked in and told them it was a bad idea to take advantage of someone that was defenseless due to their mental state? That would have been the humane thing to do. I love the victim blaming in this thread as if the guys have zero culpability for their actions. The woman was an idiot for getting drunk beyond comprehension, that shouldn't make it okay for men to sexually assault her.

 

[IthacaMatt]

My daughter is not going to college. She has a career choice right out of high school.

You are taking this in a direction not consistent with my comments. A book, "majority", effects does NOT mean she wasn't consensual to this situation. Vast majority does not equal all.

And I, for one, am glad we have reasonable doubt, otherwise our prisons would be filled a lot more than they actually are. But, I'll take this further, civil court doesn't require reasonable doubt. The bar for "conviction" is much lower. Knowing that, why did this woman and her attorney agree to not sue?

What is she going to be doing, CPA?
Best of luck to her.