Looks like Mark Coyle has quite the mess at Minnesota

[longislandcuse]

Good for him. I have 2 daughters - enough of this bullsht.

Clearly you want to avoid a Duke lax situation, but I see nothing wrong in suspending a kid until the facts are out. Not one.

This isn't innocent until proven guilty. These are kids not playing for a team until they figure it out.

Suprised this statement received 27 likes so far. So you'd be ok if some woman falsely accused you of rape and you were "suspended" from your job until it's all sorted out?

Seems like a fairly easy way for a scorned woman to get revenge on an athlete if there's zero burden of proof necessary.

More than ever these college students (men and women) need regular meetings on how to protect themselves. Not just one meeting as a freshman.

 

[Chip]

There's a detailed report of their investigation in the players dismissal letter. It's a tough read.

Oh, ok. I read that one article that said they weren't releasing the details for privacy reasons.

 

[RMH44]

Suprised this statement received 27 likes so far. So you'd be ok if some woman falsely accused you of rape and you were "suspended" from your job until it's all sorted out?

I completely understand your point. In fact, it happened to a guy I know in real life.

He was the coach of the Girls hoops team at a local HS when his live-in girl friend accused him of sexual assault. He was immediately dismissed as coach and, essentially, lost his shot at the AD (which he was in line for) job in his district.

Eventually, the former GF admitted she made-up the entire story and the case was dismissed. Sadly, his career and reputation were tarnished forever.

Many times, short of video evidence these situations can be tricky and a PR nightmare.

 

[CIL]

Suprised this statement received 27 likes so far. So you'd be ok if some woman falsely accused you of rape and you were "suspended" from your job until it's all sorted out?

Seems like a fairly easy way for a scorned woman to get revenge on an athlete if there's zero burden of proof necessary.

More than ever these college students (men and women) need weekly meetings on how to protect themselves. Not just one meeting as a freshman.

99% of employers would suspend from your job if you were accused of a felony. I know I absolutely would. It's in my contract. That's life these days.

If you don't have a problem with kids standing around cheering on folks gang banging a drunken girl, I don't know what to write.

 

[longislandcuse]

I completely understand your point. In fact, it happened to a guy I know in real life.

He was the coach of the Girls hoops team at a local HS when his live-in girl friend accused him of s e xual assault. He was immediately dismissed as coach and, essentially, lost his shot at the AD (which he was in line for) job in his district.

Eventually, the former GF admitted she made-up the entire story and the case was dismissed. Sadly, his career and reputation were tarnished forever.

Many times, short of video evidence these situations can be tricky and a PR nightmare.

I too have a real life story similar to what happened here. In high school a girl consented to having sex with multiple guys on the team. Once it got out and her name was trashed, it went from her giving consent to "I was raped".

She had sent texts to friends about the incident which implied her consent and those girls came forward with the texts and the case was thrown out.

I'm not saying that this story at Minnesota is like that, I've read through the thread and it seems there's still much left to be answered, but it's tough (and I hate being jaded) to not look at these allegations through the lens of personal experience.

That also doesn't justify me dismissing anyone who comes forward as I recognize that being raped is one of the worst things imaginable and it does happen, far too frequently, so women who come forward with legit accusations need to be protected by us in society.

 

[longislandcuse]

99% of employers would suspend from your job if you were accused of a felony. I know I absolutely would. It's in my contract. That's life these days.

If you don't have a problem with kids standing around cheering on folks gang banging a drunken girl, I don't know what to write.

Of course I have a problem with that. There's also a HUGE difference between conduct unbecoming and rape.

 

[Moontan]

Of course I have a problem with that. There's also a HUGE difference between conduct unbecoming and rape.

If she can't consent, and in this case pushed guys away and asked them to stop, then it's rape.

 

[longislandcuse]

If she can't consent, and in this case pushed guys away and asked them to stop, then it's rape.

If that's what happened, then yes, clearly.

 

[pearl31]

If that's what happened, then yes, clearly.

you should read the report that was leaked yesterday - or even just parts of the report

 

[CarolinaCuse]

No perfect outcome to this situation. Boycotting players think due process wasn't given but they wanted to move the timeframe for the accused institutional hearings up to before the bowl game. Yet, this request would not be afforded to other students at Univ of MN (i.e., moving up a hearing date to accommodate life events). Due process is relative to the policies and procedures laid out by the institution.

Also, without a doubt, if there is any chance that the players committed a violent crime, you have to suspend them until the investigation is complete and a hearing takes place. There is a lot at stake for all parties - alleged accused and alleged victim. If the university is doing things right, it takes time and they'll want to get it right. It's not a perfect system but then again, is there any part of an investigation that would be straight forward when trying to decipher the difference between a gang rape and gang bang.

Personally, I think the football team was in the wrong to boycott (but certainly within their right). They are making requests for the accused that are exceptions for all other students.

 

[longislandcuse]

you should read the report that was leaked yesterday - or even just parts of the report

I'm not debating on this case because I haven't read those yet. I've only really responded to CIL saying players should be suspended en masse for rape allegations as universal acceptance everywhere in every instance. I don't have any opinion on this case yet for that reason. Sorry if my posts led you to think I'm saying the players are innocent of rape.. I'm definitely not saying that.

 

[jgeorge322]

What people dont get on here, the doubters, is that colleges follow affirmative consent now. That means unambiguous yes. These players are educated on what this means. They were provided notice to avoid these situations. Do I think they are criminals? No. But due process violations, bitch please

 

[CIL]

I'm not debating on this case because I haven't read those yet. I've only really responded to CIL saying players should be suspended en masse for rape allegations as universal acceptance everywhere in every instance. I don't have any opinion on this case yet for that reason. Sorry if my posts led you to think I'm saying the players are innocent of rape.. I'm definitely not saying that.

Players en masse? Where did I write en masse? The 10 that participated in it are being suspended.

Amir Early at Syracuse was kicked out of the school. This is what happens at Universities these days. Don't like it? Don't put yourself in those situations.

I understand your point about false accusations. This is a far different issues that a one person he said she she said.

 

[CuseOnly]

you should read the report that was leaked yesterday - or even just parts of the report

Link?

 

[SU68]

Not being able to charge them with rape (due to lack of evidence, etc) is NOT the same as not being able to charge them for violating school moral codes and rules.

The levels of "evidence" necessary for one, may be quite a bit different than for the other.
They can be "innocent" of one crime, and very much guilty of another.

Guilt or innocence is irrelevant. Any player who refuses to play in a game is not fulfilling his side of his athletic scholarship agreement and should lose it.

 

[jgeorge322]

Guilt or innocence is irrelevant. Any player who refuses to play in a game is not fulfilling his side of his athletic scholarship agreement and should lose it.

It depends on the circumstances. This is not a good look by the players

 

[bcubs9497]

Guilt or innocence is irrelevant. Any player who refuses to play in a game is not fulfilling his side of his athletic scholarship agreement and should lose it.

Not always true.

That being said, were I on that team, I'd choose to NOT fall on that sword...

 

[Moontan]

Not always true.

That being said, were I on that team, I'd choose to NOT fall on that sword...

But you might consider informing them that a lack of charges does not equate to innocence... and see if that gains traction. A somewhat dicey path, but one that that's not devoid of a detour/return to the original team standpoint.

 

[TexanMark]

I think that's irrelevant. If she had, that has no bearing on her consent in the moment.

I know in military court it isn't relevant...but how about civilian court?

 

[TheCusian]

Suprised this statement received 27 likes so far. So you'd be ok if some woman falsely accused you of rape and you were "suspended" from your job until it's all sorted out?

Seems like a fairly easy way for a scorned woman to get revenge on an athlete if there's zero burden of proof necessary.

More than ever these college students (men and women) need regular meetings on how to protect themselves. Not just one meeting as a freshman.

Hmm. If we are all at a holiday party and 5+ dudes were involved and it was some co-worker it does change the calculus a bit.

 

[TexanMark]

The report

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted5.pdf

 

[OttoMets]

DA sounds like a wuss. She reported considerable resistance and they still won't press charges? Fitzy tried to indict Flynn and co., it was the grand jury that said no, not the DA's office. Also like to point out that the whole reason Coyle is even in MN to begin with is that the prior AD was brought up on s e xual harassment charges. Coyle's first job is restore the department's integrity, I don't doubt for one second he would shoot first and ask questions later.

Not really. That example epitomizes the problem - a fanboy DA who's looking to do the program what he considers a favor.

 

[nzm136]

I think Mizzou set the precident when they caved to boycotting players and Wolfe resigned. Minnesota can take all the boycotting players' scholarships away...they're just accepting imploding the program by doing so because recruiting there afterwords would be borderline impossible. The players have some leverage here and are using it - and if it was OK at Mizzou to boycott over perceived injustice, it's OK here.

MIZZOU caving was absolutely embarrassing for the entirety of American higher education. I really, really hope that their unparalleled ineptitude didn't set the standard for how universities should interact w/ their students.

**Before someone reads too much into what I wrote, I'm 100% talking about MIZZOU caving to students, and I am not trying to take a position as to how other universities should handle other scandals, other than I think that universities should do what's right, irrespective of what her that course of action aligns with the sensibilities of generally over-privileged 18-22 year old kids.**

 

[Crusty]

Sure, I'm not going to argue that. But, was it that they are punishing them for the "behavior" or for s e xual assault? It seems they are arguing s e xual assault occurred even though the prosecutors didn't come to that conclusion after reviewing all of the evidence.

And if you're going to take the argument that police departments are corrupt, then we can easily argue that schools have been implicit in destroying the lives of young men by not providing adequate due process (see Virginia and Duke). Fact is, the vast majority of police departments and prosecutors offices are not corrupt, so to take a few bad apples and apply it to all is dishonest. Lastly, it was not a he said, she said case. It was a they said, she said, and three separate video clips contradicting her claim case. It's disgusting this happened and was recorded, but in hindsight it looks like the recordings saved these men from prosecution.

Let's face it, universities are under all kinds of pressure from students on a myriad of issues. It is in their best interest to stand on the side of caution from a publicity standpoint.

The police and prosecutor determined they did not have enough evidence to support a conviction. Remember that a judge granted a restraining order to the victim against six players. The judge obviously concluded she was at risk of harm. Moreover, the school has every right to have a standard higher than the criminal statutes. The players behavior was reprehensible and suspension from football is the least that should happen to them.

They taped the encounter on their cell phones, providing the university with enough evidence to conclude that their conduct policy had been violated.

 

[leftytg]

The police and prosecutor determined they did not have enough evidence to support a conviction. Remember that a judge granted a restraining order to the victim against six players. The judge obviously concluded she was at risk of harm. Moreover, the school has every right to have a standard higher than the criminal statutes. The players behavior was reprehensible and suspension from football is the least that should happen to them.

They taped the encounter on their cell phones, providing the university with enough evidence to conclude that their conduct policy had been violated.

good post. Reading that post you quoted from texascpa pisses me off all over again.

Lets get this straight. It is irresponsible to conclude that the Minnesota prosecutor's office has acted in any way unprofessionally. On its face, this isn't like the Tallahassee/FSU "investigation" into Winston or Waco/Baylor's "investigations" into the many accusations there. Read the police report - the police promptly interviewed the victim and moved to collect evidence.

I don't know why the prosecutor did not move to bring charges. My suspicion, based on how the prosecutor's office worded their statements("insufficient admissible evidence...") and the statement the victim read in court when she dropped the restraining order (talking about how she just wants to feel safe and move on from all this), and how absolutely agonizing and horrifying the process of testifying is for a victim of sexual assault, is that the victim did not want to testify. If she was unwilling to testify, the prosecutor simply would not have enough evidence to bring a case.

Another thing to get straight. This is not a "she said THEY said case". The implication being that the word of ten accused is more convincing than the word of the victim, simply because there are more of the accused and only one victim. The investigation by the school found evidence, when examining the phones of the perpetrators, that they had colluded and coordinated their stories. You don't get the huddle together with your pals, iron out a cover story, and then claim that because the ten of you have the same story you are more credible than the victim.