Love the D hate the O

[OrangeFoo]

Folks Florida is a good team, we get all the credit for making them look that bad. That was one of the best defensive performances I've seen out of this team since the Wes show. We totally took Florida out of it's offense. I believe coming in they were one of the best rebounding teams in the country, not after today. Proud of the entire team's effort on D.

The offensive effort was offensive. When we ran our offense we looked good but the second half turned into one on one garbage. Scoop did take over today but his shots were of the "no no yes" variety, could have just as easily lost the game as won it. Our inefficiency on offense gives us a pretty slim margin for error. If we don't solve this we are at most a sweet 16 team because we will run into a team that hits just enough shots to beat us like Marquette did last year.

Bilas had the quote of the night about KJo: "when he is a one or two dribble player he is very effective, but when he holds it too much and tries to be Kobe Bryant he just turns it over". Describes KJo to a T.

I think Dion got a rude awakening against guys as athletic as he is. He can't just overpower everyone.

Triche is the best player on the team no questions asked

Fab is a monster just starting to wake up. We need to feed him the ball every trip.

Southerland is the AROD of Syracuse he will give you that home run when you are up big and look good doing it. Discuss.

 

[SUintheVille]

The O was bad outside the 3 line, but thought there was still good movement overall. O wasn't bad inside the line and fast break due to aggressive D was working well too. D wins games as we saw tonight. If SU shoots that crappy from 3 and still wins against a good team, that's a good thing. And give Scoop credit without qualifying it. He (and BT) saved their butts tonight. Yes, Triche did very well 2nd half especially. But he'll disappear in a couple games. JS will be OK. One other good thing is that SU really didn't start that slow as in other games. They were active early and often.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Our ceiling is completely tied to Fab's development this year, and hopefully next as well. When we can play from the inside out, we will be deadly. Perhaps he isn't ready for the responsibility, but I can't stand when we go long stretches of refusing to feed him.

 

[mark79]

Our ceiling is completely tied to Fab's development this year, and hopefully next as well. When we can play from the inside out, we will be deadly. Perhaps he isn't ready for the responsibility, but I can't stand when we go long stretches of refusing to feed him.

+1 you hit the nail on the head.

 

[SoBristol]

I think Dion got a rude awakening against guys as athletic as he is. He can't just overpower everyone.

Triche is the best player on the team no questions asked

Fab is a monster just starting to wake up. We need to feed him the ball every trip.

.

Sometimes people will take what they see in one game -- and generalize as if it has always been true, and always will be. Usually doesn't work out that way.

Dion did get an awakening; but his chances were limited because BT and Scoop were playing better -- last night.
Triche was very good last night. Keep in mind he was 9-9 from FT shooting. This is something we definitely need to close out a tight game. But it means he only got 11 points from the field and hit only one of his 3s. We have a lot of balance on the floor. As good as BT was last night, Scoop was better in the second half and easily led in assists; CJ had 11 boards and nearly his second double-double; KJ is our leading scorer for the season; and Melo is a monster at times. Brandon "best player on the team no questions asked"? Only when he shows up, and that doesn't happen every game.
Feed Fab every trip? Nah. A lot of the offense starts with Fab coming out for a high screen. He is coming on, but still has limited post moves. Once again, this team lives on balance and keeping everyone involved.

 

[longislandcuse]

Dion had trouble but lets remember he was garbage in the first half of one or our recent games and dominated in the second half. Triche, IF he shows up is our best player and is one of the best players in the country. Brandon is quick and built like a linebacker, shoots well and is able to get his shot off with contact, but he hasnt shown he will do this consistantly yet. If Brandon can become consistant I think he gets an NBA shot after next year with his size and defense. Fab is a beast, he wont be a Jared Sullinger type but he is a dominating big man is his own right. Defensively he changes the game. CJ is a really good player but I just wonder if he put up double doubles against bigger teams? Bilas' quote on KJo was spot on. Joseph is a good player and seems like he does good things when he makes up his mind and goes with it, but when he starts going all Kobe he just turns the ball over.

 

[jordoo]

Yes we were not that good on offense but our defense was very good against an excellent offensive team that managed to hit a mitt full of well defended deep bombs late in the shot clock.

I though that we were running the offense very well early in the second half but got away from it because we got about 4-5 open jumpers for Kris which he missed and then Brandon missed a couple open jumpers and it became more of the Scoop show after that. Scoop had a great offensive game and loved shooting over that midget Walker. If we shoot our open jumpers better we win that game by double figures IMO. That's what makes us a legit top5 team right now IMO, we play very good defense and we can beet a very good team when our offense is off and we miss a lot of shots that we want to get.

 

[SoBristol]

We aren't going to hit open jumpers consistently -- just isn't how this team is built. So, we have to do the other things really well: defense, drive the lane, transition, great balance.

As for Brandon, he can and must shoot better, but last night he did well on the move. He really isn't quick for a guard (beating his own man in a half court set), but he is strong and better than most at using either hand for a finish and good when he is the finisher on a break. If he can draw contact and get to the line, it is money. He works at both ends of the court. In a half court set, he can tend to telegraph his passes to a post guy or try to force a pass; next trip, when he gets some movement, there might be a real good assist. His good play is vital to this team.

 

[OttoMets]

That's what makes us a legit top5 team right now IMO, we play very good defense and we can beet a very good team when our offense is off and we miss a lot of shots that we want to get.

And that's what's reminding me of 2010 - everyone who gets minutes takes pride in his defense and is aware that defense is a constant that will make them a great team.

Shots don't drop every night, but they can be guaranteed 25 or 26 regular-season wins with that kind of defensive effort.

 

[ForeverOrange]

I'm glad we won, but if last night was an indication of how our offense will look against the upper big east teams this season, I will just keep my expectations lower. Scoop throwing up those lucky shots are great when they go in, but when they don't, that's a loss. We were taking so many wild contested outside shots it was just ridiculous. We have got to be able to get better offense going in these type of games if we want to be one of the last four standing.

 

[SoBeCuse]

+1 you hit the nail on the head.

Yep...without it we dribble too much and that is not good...especially Kris. Kris is a senior. I can't BELIEVE the coaching staff still allows it...those crossvers/dribbling between the legs behind the 3pt line bogs us down and he is not good at it. Bilas nailed it yesterday and many of us here have said the same. He is not Kobe Bryant and he is most effective with a couple of dribbles before making a play.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm glad we won, but if last night was an indication of how our offense will look against the upper big east teams this season, I will just keep my expectations lower. Scoop throwing up those lucky shots are great when they go in, but when they don't, that's a loss. We were taking so many wild contested outside shots it was just ridiculous. We have got to be able to get better offense going in these type of games if we want to be one of the last four standing.

Totally agree. Many people here think this is OK or maybe just ignore this. At some point our D will get exploited, teams will go off, or the D won't be clicking. We will need to score against the really good teams. I'm concerned that we won't be able to run our stuff against some of these very good teams.

 

[OttoMets]

Totally agree. Many people here think this is OK or maybe just ignore this. At some point our D will get exploited, teams will go off, or the D won't be clicking. We will need to score against the really good teams. I'm concerned that we won't be able to run our stuff against some of these very good teams.

I'd agree if our offense had been horrible last night. Fact is, we had a missed dunk and maybe ten open looks that rimmed out. If a third of those had dropped, the game wouldn't have been in question down the stretch.

Our half-court is far from perfect, but it was better last night than it's been all year. I see progress.

 

[Knicks411]

Just wanted to point out, as I have from time to time, that our 2010 team finished 18th in the country in defensive efficiency. We actually rated higher last year. (Rated higher, but the points per possession was lower in 2010, so you may want to look at it that way as well).

The defense in 2010 was great through about halfway into the BE season, but it let up a bit the last 6-8 games of the BE season.

 

[OttoMets]

Just wanted to point out, as I have from time to time, that our 2010 team finished 18th in the country in defensive efficiency. We actually rated higher last year. (Rated higher, but the points per possession was lower in 2010, so you may want to look at it that way as well).

The defense in 2010 was great through about halfway into the BE season, but it let up a bit the last 6-8 games of the BE season.

I know you and I have discussed this here before (the first time you pointed that out, I was stunned).

It does leave me rather skeptical about the statistic of defensive efficiency; I don't think too many people who watched all 70 games in those two years would conclude what the statistics do. I wonder if a couple horrid defensive games at the end of 2010 (Louisville and Georgetown come to mind) skewed the numbers for the year? (I doubt it; a couple of our games last year were likely just as bad.)

I can't contradict numbers, but our guards and wings are playing much harder this year than last on defense. Scoop, Dion, and Triche look a lot more like Andy, Scoop, and Triche of 2010 than they do last year's defensive guards. Last year those guys looked a step slow and uninterested.

 

[Knicks411]

Well, like I said, the actual defensive efficiency numbers were slightly better in 2010 than 2011 (allowed, adjusted, .89 points per possession in 2010, .904 last year; I think just the distribution of teams meant that we ranked higher last year vs 2010).

I wouldn't say the 2011 defense was better than the 2010 because they ranked 2 spots higher, it's never that easy, especially because, as
I pointed out, the 2010 teams allowed fewer points per trip.

We can throw out the adjusted numbers, and just look at the raw numbers; maybe you can quibble with the adjustments Pomeroy makes or what have you. In 2010, we allowed .937 points per possession. (We played a tougher than average schedule, thats why the adjustment takes it down to .89). Last year, it was .949. So either way, the 2010 team looks better by about .01 points per trip. Like I said before, I guess 2011 simply ranked higher because of the distribution of various teams and how many points they allowed; either way you look at it, the teams were pretty close, which I would guess is not what the average, even average hardcore SU fan might think.

The reason I think this is is that the defense became the story of the 2010 team early in the season. Bobby Knight was dissecting it on ESPN, etc, everywhere you looked they were talking about our defense. (Probably started because we bottled up a UNC team that we all thought was going to be better than they were). Once those narratives begin to get written, it's hard to change it. But the fact of the matter is, as that season went on, our defense definitely declined. Just looking at the BE season; we allowed 7 teams to score a point per possession or more against us; 5 of those 7 came in the final 7 games of the year, and in the other 2 games, we allowed about .98 and .97, which is good, but wasn't at the level we were at prior to that.

All of this is a long winded way of saying not that our defense in 2010 was bad or anything like that. It was very good. Best defense in the BE during the regular season. And I'm not saying 2011 was better. But I just think that defense has been overrated a little because of the narrative that was written early in the season that was never really adjusted when we got a little shredded in the last 6-8 games.

And for whatever its worth, we're 10th in defensive efficiency this year.

 

[OttoMets]

All of this is a long winded way of saying not that our defense in 2010 was bad or anything like that. It was very good. Best defense in the BE during the regular season. And I'm not saying 2011 was better. But I just think that defense has been overrated a little because of the narrative that was written early in the season that was never really adjusted when we got a little shredded in the last 6-8 games.

And for whatever its worth, we're 10th in defensive efficiency this year.

Good analysis. And you're probably right that a lot of us started to watch the 2010 team with a strong bias that our defense was great after the national press started to rave about it.

 

[Knicks411]

Good analysis. And you're probably right that a lot of us started to watch the 2010 team with a strong bias that our defense was great after the national press started to rave about it.

And let me throw another thought in there, which is just a theory of mine. A lot of times when we give up a lot of points, the other team is raining 3's on us, because by playing zone we're going to give up more attempts from there, and sometimes they fall.

I think as fans, we're more willing to write that kind of performance off to bad luck; "the other team was due to hit some 3s", which of course is right, sometimes the other team is going to hit some bombs on you.

But we also need to remember that some of our great defensive numbers were put up thanks to the other team missing a whole lot of 3's. IOW, we are more willing to write off the bad defensive games to the other team getting lucky from 3, but also crediting all of the good defensive performances we play to great defense from us, as opposed to maybe the other team missing some open looks. (And again, not to suggest that how the other team shoots from 3 is a completely crapshoot that we as a D have nothing to do with, but just that it goes both ways).

Hope that makes sense.

 

[OttoMets]

And let me throw another thought in there, which is just a theory of mine. A lot of times when we give up a lot of points, the other team is raining 3's on us, because by playing zone we're going to give up more attempts from there, and sometimes they fall.

I think as fans, we're more willing to write that kind of performance off to bad luck; "the other team was due to hit some 3s", which of course is right, sometimes the other team is going to hit some bombs on you.

But we also need to remember that some of our great defensive numbers were put up thanks to the other team missing a whole lot of 3's. IOW, we are more willing to write off the bad defensive games to the other team getting lucky from 3, but also crediting all of the good defensive performances we play to great defense from us, as opposed to maybe the other team missing some open looks. (And again, not to suggest that how the other team shoots from 3 is a completely crapshoot that we as a D have nothing to do with, but just that it goes both ways).

Hope that makes sense.

A bit like runs batted in in baseball - it's defensive efficiency is not solely within the control of our defense. Regardless of how hard we play or how well we defend, the number is partly reliant on how well the other team shoots.