Lunardi still has us in but dropped to 11th seed in South..

[Brooky03]

Flame out? I think they had really one disappointing season recently losing to Wichita St. last year in the first round as a 6 seed I think. Otherwise we are talking THREE E8s between 2011-2015. 2 of them losing to Wisconsin in which one was in OT and we know how excellent those Wisonsin Kaminsky/Dekker teams were. They also lost a Sweet 16 game to a Craft OSU team because LaQuinton Ross hit a game winning 3. They have been very consistent and obviously producing in the Tourney. If just because Miller doesn't have his F4 (more on bad luck than anything else) discredits how consistent and solid Arizona has been in season and in the post-season; then I don't know what to tell you. Has Syracuse been a more solid program than Arizona the past 5-7 years because of our F4s? The answer is no.

When your team is hyped every season like it's full of gods, you should make a Final Four once in a while. Arizona underperforms expectations consistently. My point is that the expectations are always too high. I never trust west coast teams in the tourney.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I know a coach who took twelve years to make the final four. That guy sucked.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Do people consider it luck when Izzo makes a FF as a 10 seed?

 

[Brooky03]

I know a coach who took twelve years to make the final four. That guy sucked.

This is missing the mark if it's in reference to the Arizona argument.

 

[HOFCeluck]

This is missing the mark if it's in reference to the Arizona argument.

Why? Not only did JB not make a final four until 1987, he didn't even get past the sweet sixteen. And this was when you didn't even have to win two games to get there.

 

[Brooky03]

Why? Not only did JB not make a final four until 1987, he didn't even get past the sweet sixteen. And this was when you didn't even have to win two games to get there.

So you're saying Jim Boeheim had boatloads of top 25 recruits on his rosters and was hyped in the media like Syracuse was a National Championship contender each of those 12 seasons?

 

[HOFCeluck]

So you're saying Jim Boeheim had boatloads of top 25 recruits on his rosters and was hyped in the media like Syracuse was a National Championship contender each of those 12 seasons?

I'm saying that he had several talented teams from 1976 to 1987 that probably should've advanced farther than they did.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm saying that he had several talented teams from 1976 to 1987 that probably should've advanced farther than they did.

That's fine. That just wasn't the argument at hand.

 

[HOFCeluck]

That's fine. That just wasn't the argument at hand.

Your argument wasn't about

Arizona underperforms expectations consistently.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I agree with a lot of this, but I do disagree with the tourney part. Since Miller got to Arizona he has 11 tournament wins and we have 15. I mean I think Arizona's a good program, but you can make the same excuses for us if Fab doesn't get suspended, Arinze doesn't get hurt, Ennis hits one jumper against Dayton, and they call a block on Triche instead of a charge against Michigan. I get the tournament is a crapshoot, but maybe the PAC 12 is a tad overrated? I don't know.

Miller has 19 Tourney wins since 2009 when he arrived. I think this demonstrates consistent postseason success. In fact, they are the model of it. It's just incredibly difficult to get to the F4. They have a great chance to make it happen this year. I definitely think the PAC 12 has been overrated most years and I'm a USC guy but to say (not you) that Arizona flames out or consistently underperforms is malarkey, IMO.

 

[Brooky03]

Your argument wasn't about

You conveniently left out the rest of the post. I said they've been overhyped the last 5 seasons and flame out. 'Flame out' was probably a poor choice of words, but they haven't been the juggernaut they've been purported to be in that timespan. Whether or not JB and Syracuse underperformed 30+ years ago doesn't really have any bearing on the argument. I'm not saying Arizona sucks, I'm just saying they're not a team that's particularly scary because they often don't live up to the hype. I don't think there was much hype around many of the Cuse teams during JB's first decade here.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Miller has 19 Tourney wins since 2009 when he arrived. I think this demonstrates consistent postseason success. In fact, they are the model of it. It's just incredibly difficult to get to the F4. They have a great chance to make it happen this year. I definitely think the PAC 12 has been overrated most years and I'm a USC guy but to say (not you) that Arizona flames out or consistently underperforms is malarkey, IMO.

Zona Cuse

09-10=0 09-10=2
10-11=3 10-11=1
11-12=0 11-12=3
12-13=2 12-13=4
13-14=3 13-14=1
14-15=3 14-15=0
15-16=0 15-16=4


I'm not discounting anything Zona has done. I think they have a very good program. A lot of success. I do think a lot of our fans are selling some of our success short. Outside of the season we were banned, that was the only year we haven't won a tourney game. I do think Zona struggles somewhat in the tourney against better teams because they tend to rely a lot on driving to the basket and some of their teams lack 3pt shooting.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Zona Cuse

09-10=0 09-10=2
10-11=3 10-11=1
11-12=0 11-12=3
12-13=2 12-13=4
13-14=3 13-14=1
14-15=3 14-15=0
15-16=0 15-16=4


I'm not discounting anything Zona has done. I think they have a very good program. A lot of success. I do think a lot of our fans are selling some of our success short. Outside of the season we were banned, that was the only year we haven't won a tourney game. I do think Zona struggles somewhat in the tourney against better teams because they tend to rely a lot on driving to the basket and some of their teams lack 3pt shooting.

But I think on a long enough timeline of top two seeds and elite berths he's going to get there.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Zona Cuse

09-10=0 09-10=2
10-11=3 10-11=1
11-12=0 11-12=3
12-13=2 12-13=4
13-14=3 13-14=1
14-15=3 14-15=0
15-16=0 15-16=4


I'm not discounting anything Zona has done. I think they have a very good program. A lot of success. I do think a lot of our fans are selling some of our success short. Outside of the season we were banned, that was the only year we haven't won a tourney game. I do think Zona struggles somewhat in the tourney against better teams because they tend to rely a lot on driving to the basket and some of their teams lack 3pt shooting.

My math was wrong. I still have them at 13 wins, though. I just don't see any struggle with them regarding the Tourney. Usually they end up getting bounced by the national championship or runner-up pretty late in the Tourney in a game down to the wire. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Knicks411]

You conveniently left out the rest of the post. I said they've been overhyped the last 5 seasons and flame out. 'Flame out' was probably a poor choice of words, but they haven't been the juggernaut they've been purported to be in that timespan. Whether or not JB and Syracuse underperformed 30+ years ago doesn't really have any bearing on the argument. I'm not saying Arizona sucks, I'm just saying they're not a team that's particularly scary because they often don't live up to the hype. I don't think there was much hype around many of the Cuse teams during JB's first decade here.

In the last 5 seasons, Arizona has made the tournament 4 times (missed in 2012).

2013 they were a 6 seed, won 2 games, and lost to Ohio State by 3 points. They beat seed expectation.
2014 they were a 1 and lost in the elite 8 to Wisconsin in OT.
2015 they were a 2 and lost in the elite 8 to Wisconsin.
2016 they were a 6 and lost to a Wichita State team that wa slike top 15 in KP.
You can take it back to 2011, they were a 5 and lost in the elite 8 to UConn.

If you want to say maybe they should have been seeded higher based on their talent level, I guess maybe? But based on their seed, they should have been expected to win 9.5 games; they won 11.

 

[CorduroyG]

arizona may have been the best team in the country in 2014, they should have at least made the f4 that year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

In the last 5 seasons, Arizona has made the tournament 4 times (missed in 2012).

2013 they were a 6 seed, won 2 games, and lost to Ohio State by 3 points. They beat seed expectation.
2014 they were a 1 and lost in the elite 8 to Wisconsin in OT.
2015 they were a 2 and lost in the elite 8 to Wisconsin.
2016 they were a 6 and lost to a Wichita State team that wa slike top 15 in KP.
You can take it back to 2011, they were a 5 and lost in the elite 8 to UConn.

If you want to say maybe they should have been seeded higher based on their talent level, I guess maybe? But based on their seed, they should have been expected to win 9.5 games; they won 11.

I think they have won a lot of regular season games in part because a good portion of the PAC 12 has been garbage so people see their record and expect more wins.

 

[SoBeCuse]

arizona may have been the best team in the country in 2014, they should have at least made the f4 that year.

Again, they lost to Wisconsin in OT to that Kaminsky/Dekker team. I will eat crow if they don't get to at least an E8/F4 this year. It is all set up for them and I think they are really good. Markannen/Simmons/Trier/Alkins should be able to beat anybody.

 

[pearl31]

at what point do you stop using the woe-is-me hard luck excuse, though? Ultimately success in this sport at this level amounts to F4s and rings. Coaches like Miller and Bennett shouldn't be included in the pantheon of greats yet.
Arizona's winning % has been great, and Miller (thanks Book) is one of the elite recruiters, but... I think you're being a bit disingenuous or maybe biased if you try and argue that they haven't underachieved in the tourney with the ridiculous talent they have every year

 

[Cusefan0307]

at what point do you stop using the woe-is-me hard luck excuse, though? Ultimately success in this sport at this level amounts to F4s and rings. Coaches like Miller and Bennett shouldn't be included in the pantheon of greats yet.
Arizona's winning % has been great, and Miller (thanks Book) is one of the elite recruiters, but... I think you're being a bit disingenuous or maybe biased if you try and argue that they haven't underachieved in the tourney with the ridiculous talent they have every year

They have great talent, but it's pretty crazy they have one win against a currently ranked team all year at UCLA. They lost to them the 2nd time and also lost to the Zags, and were blasted by Oregon. I'm not sure what to make of the west coast teams. Their schedules are pretty meh... I think I trust Oregon the most, but even they lost to Georgetown.

 

[SoBeCuse]

at what point do you stop using the woe-is-me hard luck excuse, though? Ultimately success in this sport at this level amounts to F4s and rings. Coaches like Miller and Bennett shouldn't be included in the pantheon of greats yet.
Arizona's winning % has been great, and Miller (thanks Book) is one of the elite recruiters, but... I think you're being a bit disingenuous or maybe biased if you try and argue that they haven't underachieved in the tourney with the ridiculous talent they have every year

Disingenuous? Um, yeah that's it. :crazy: Obviously both Miller and Bennett are great coaches but don't have a legacy built up yet nor the true longevity. I don't think JB would ever say Miller, Bennett, aren't great coaches. I'd love to hear a reasonable mind like Bilas (a loyal Cuse guy at that) talk about this and Arizona. Maybe I'll ask him on Twitter. I highly doubt he would be that naive to say Arizona has consistently underperformed.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Disingenuous? Um, yeah that's it. :crazy: Obviously both Miller and Bennett are great coaches but don't have a legacy built up yet nor the true longevity. I don't think JB would ever say Miller, Bennett, aren't great coaches. I'd love to hear a reasonable mind like Bilas (a loyal Cuse guy at that) talk about this and Arizona. Maybe I'll ask him on Twitter. I highly doubt he would be that naive to say Arizona has consistently underperformed.

I mean this stuff annoys me because of the different ways cuse fans look at it.

When we underachieve it's "well the tournament's a crapshoot ."

When Arizona, or WSU, or any other program falls short in march it becomes the last word on that program/coach.

It's not like we don't have our own history of underachieving with big name players.

 

[pearl31]

Disingenuous? Um, yeah that's it. :crazy: Obviously both Miller and Bennett are great coaches but don't have a legacy built up yet nor the true longevity. I don't think JB would ever say Miller, Bennett, aren't great coaches. I'd love to hear a reasonable mind like Bilas (a loyal Cuse guy at that) talk about this and Arizona. Maybe I'll ask him on Twitter. I highly doubt he would be that naive to say Arizona has consistently underperformed.

Pointing out that Arizona has underachieved in the tournament is naive? lol OK
One f4 in the last 20 years with the talent they have year-in/year-out is... what, then?

I mean this stuff annoys me because of the different ways cuse fans look at it.

When we underachieve it's "well the tournament's a crapshoot ."

When Arizona, or WSU, or any other program falls short in march it becomes the last word on that program/coach.

It's not like we don't have our own history of underachieving with big name players.

Uh, straw man much?

 

[shandeezy7]

So this Arizona argument is compelling but irrelevant. Can it be moved to another thread?

 

[HOFCeluck]

Pointing out that Arizona has underachieved in the tournament is naive? lol OK
One f4 in the last 20 years with the talent they have year-in/year-out is... what, then?


Uh, straw man much?

Meh. Cuse fans will laugh at other programs "underachieving" and then make every excuse under the sun for our past failures.

I mean, three elite eights in six years. One an OT loss. What underachievers.