Malik Brown Leaving Vols

[anomander]

Don't know ... all I know is when you bring in 37 kids ... some have to go ... I'm not even sure how he can do that honestly .. I know the Kiffin disaster left a barren roster but wow ... 37!

This is just another prime example why CFB needs 1 governing body. Having individual conferences the authority to make their own rules really tilts things in the favor of the conferences with a ton of $$$. I at least respect the B10 in they do not allow over recruiting, and have been pushing for the SEC to drop this tactic for a while. The SEC, and especially the SEC West have been blatant abusers for some time now. Just imagine there are about 40-50 kids each year that sign on to SEC schools that would be dispersed throughout the rest of CFB, if there was 1 set of rules for everybody. It's one of the biggest parts of CFB that I can't stand.


Disclaimer: The ACC currently allows over recruiting as well, so imo we need to address this as well, but only if everyone else plays by the same rules.

 

[tep624]

I thought once DM was gone we'd stop having to hear about character. If the staff is not interested in Brown and they think he may be a guy who could create more problems than he would solve, I'm cool with it. But 'character' and 'leadership' being major factors in who we sign is not only naive (at least to the extent that every coach ever is going to take several chances and hope they can 'turn kids around' ... or at least get good production out of a talented athlete and hope he doesn't screw up too bad) but it's also next to impossible to measure.

I am fine with coaches trying to get a gauge on how kids will conduct themselves and how hard they will work and how they will fit into a locker room, etc. but there is just so much out of a coach's control and so much they can't predict. Talent, on the other hand, is tangible and, at least to a fairly large degree, something you can measure. It is the general basis on who is recruited and who isn't in most cases, regardless of what the coaches say to the fans and boosters and media, etc.

Character and leadership are not major factors? That may be the most ignorant statement I have read on this board. If you don't recruit talent, you aren't going to win, but if you recruit a bunch of talented kids that can't stay out of jail, can't stay in school, can't stay conditioned, are dishonest, or are in general lackadaisical in their commitment to the program, you're not going to win either. And you don't need a prior rap sheet to determine that, it's called doing your homework and this staff has stressed very clearly that they do the leg work to find out what the kid's reputation is with people it matters with around them. There's a reason why it was stressed that the majority of the kids in the 2014 class were team captains - the staff values talented kids that have a track record of being accountable and are leaders. If the majority of your program fits that description, in large part it will manage itself and it allows the staff to focus on recruiting and the X's and O's, not drama.

 

[nzm136]

Character and leadership are not major factors? That may be the most ignorant statement I have read on this board. If you don't recruit talent, you aren't going to win, but if you recruit a bunch of talented kids that can't stay out of jail, can't stay in school, can't stay conditioned, are dishonest, or are in general lackadaisical in their commitment to the program, you're not going to win either. And you don't need a prior rap sheet to determine that, it's called doing your homework and this staff has stressed very clearly that they do the leg work to find out what the kid's reputation is with people it matters with around them. There's a reason why it was stressed that the majority of the kids in the 2014 class were team captains - the staff values talented kids that have a track record of being accountable and are leaders. If the majority of your program fits that description, in large part it will manage itself and it allows the staff to focus on recruiting and the X's and O's, not drama.

I thought that this:
"If you don't recruit talent, you aren't going to win, but if you recruit a bunch of talented kids that can't stay out of jail, can't stay in school, can't stay conditioned, are dishonest, or are in general lackadaisical in their commitment to the program,..."
was going to end with this:
"...you are the University of Miami."

 

[wfschrec]

I thought that this:
"If you don't recruit talent, you aren't going to win, but if you recruit a bunch of talented kids that can't stay out of jail, can't stay in school, can't stay conditioned, are dishonest, or are in general lackadaisical in their commitment to the program,..."
was going to end with this:
"...you are the University of Miami."

Well either that or your QB gets free tattoos and promises to miss the first third of a season after a BCS Bowl only to bolt in the upcoming supplemental draft to avoid punishment ... we are tOSU.

 

[billsin01]

Character and leadership are not major factors? That may be the most ignorant statement I have read on this board. If you don't recruit talent, you aren't going to win, but if you recruit a bunch of talented kids that can't stay out of jail, can't stay in school, can't stay conditioned, are dishonest, or are in general lackadaisical in their commitment to the program, you're not going to win either. And you don't need a prior rap sheet to determine that, it's called doing your homework and this staff has stressed very clearly that they do the leg work to find out what the kid's reputation is with people it matters with around them. There's a reason why it was stressed that the majority of the kids in the 2014 class were team captains - the staff values talented kids that have a track record of being accountable and are leaders. If the majority of your program fits that description, in large part it will manage itself and it allows the staff to focus on recruiting and the X's and O's, not drama.

I'm not opposed to the notion that a kid's makeup is taken into account to some degree by every coaching staff. My point is that quantifiable proof of character -- especially when projecting it out 4 or 5 years into the future for a minimum of several dozen kids each year -- is a completely impossible task.

But before you start calling me ignorant think about what I'm saying. Is it great to have high-quality kids on the team? Absolutely. But how much does it truly matter? Michael carter Williams tried to walk out of a store without paying for merchandise. We went to the final four. The jimmy Johnson cowboys were a complete and utter wasteland of human virtue. The Miami and USC teams were miserable. Mike Vick was murdering dogs. The 86 mets were complete but nearly unbeatable. They were all pretty good.

Whatever , the point is this -- the staff was desperately hoping to sign Malik brown until he spurned them on signing day. Not a terribly strong showing of character. Yet, had he signed, he would have been one of those hard-nosed high character guys.

If they had a choice today between a Bruce Williams type and an andray baskin or lavar Lobdell they'd still take their chances with the latter.

Character is far too often a slippery slope that most often leads to empty cliches like 'comes from a good family' or 'he's a hard worker' or misguided symbols of character like team captain or great student.

In the end they are trying to get the best talent they can while ideally getting guys who qualify and remain eligible for 3-5 years and basically keep their noses clean. It's what almost all these programs are doing.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not opposed to the notion that a kid's makeup is taken into account to some degree by every coaching staff. My point is that quantifiable proof of character -- especially when projecting it out 4 or 5 years into the future for a minimum of several dozen kids each year -- is a completely impossible task.

But before you start calling me ignorant think about what I'm saying. Is it great to have high-quality kids on the team? Absolutely. But how much does it truly matter? Michael carter Williams tried to walk out of a store without paying for merchandise. We went to the final four. The jimmy Johnson cowboys were a complete and utter wasteland of human virtue. The Miami and USC teams were miserable. Mike Vick was murdering dogs. The 86 mets were complete but nearly unbeatable. They were all pretty good.

Whatever , the point is this -- the staff was desperately hoping to sign Malik brown until he spurned them on signing day. Not a terribly strong showing of character. Yet, had he signed, he would have been one of those hard-nosed high character guys.

If they had a choice today between a Bruce Williams type and an andray baskin or lavar Lobdell they'd still take their chances with the latter.

Character is far too often a slippery slope that most often leads to empty cliches like 'comes from a good family' or 'he's a hard worker' or misguided symbols of character like team captain or great student.

In the end they are trying to get the best talent they can while ideally getting guys who qualify and remain eligible for 3-5 years and basically keep their noses clean. It's what almost all these programs are doing.

I don't think Shafer is doing this. He's said character matters and they pass on kids who display a lack of it, despite their talent.

 

[tep624]

I don't think Shafer is doing this. He's said character matters and they pass on kids who display a lack of it, despite their talent.

At that was really my point as to it being an ignorant statement. I can give a laundry list too of pro teams and college programs which took that approach, decided to invest the time to manage a motley crue of characters and won championships. That's not the approach that Shafer and his staff are taking, and they reiterate it practically everytime they are interviewed regarding recruiting. Character may not matter much for a program like FSU, but it does matter for the Syracuse Football program.

 

[CIL]

Why do people assume Malik Brown is a bad kid all of the sudden?

 

[orange79]

Why do people assume Malik Brown is a bad kid all of the sudden?

Yeah, I was wondering myself where that came from...

 

[djorange1989]

I think some folks consider him a bad kid for flipping and that is silly. I don't think any of us were too enamored with the whole point system thing but if we had gotten the most points no one would have minded it. There are people still hammering Zach Allen for flipping. I am totally fine with HCSS closing the door on Brown and I totally understand it but let's not turn this kid into Lawrence Phillips Part 2

 

[billsin01]

Why do people assume Malik Brown is a bad kid all of the sudden?

That's my whole point: it seems like the inferred point is that he's not high character. Yet a year ago or whatever we were excited about signing him.

 

[billsin01]

I don't think Shafer is doing this. He's said character matters and they pass on kids who display a lack of it, despite their talent.

You don't think Shafer is doing what? Taking chances on kids who may be borderline by some measure of character (grades, behavior, family background ...)? I can guarantee you he is and, not only that, but he should be. The idea that a kid should not be given a chance because of a scrape or two with the law or whatever in the past doesn't make a whole lot sense. Obviously tis is going to backfire occasionally but perhaps some of these kids mature or turn things around somehow. That's far more valuable than giving a scholarship to a kid who's parents have been sending him to a QB camp in california for the past five years.

 

[billsin01]

At that was really my point as to it being an ignorant statement. I can give a laundry list too of pro teams and college programs which took that approach, decided to invest the time to manage a motley crue of characters and won championships. That's not the approach that Shafer and his staff are taking, and they reiterate it practically everytime they are interviewed regarding recruiting. Character may not matter much for a program like FSU, but it does matter for the Syracuse Football program.

how are you defining character and leadership?

This program is still going to have kids with disciplinary issues and grades issues. We're still going to have kids who don't work as hard as the coaches would like (weight issues, not learning playbooks, film room stuff). We absolutely will have kids who are egotistical and selfish.

So while I am fine with the idea that Shafer and company are trying to avoid the lawrence phillips types, I'm not really sure I want them worried about how 'good' a recruit's family is.

Talent is king for two reasons:

1) You can measure it (character is not only hard to measure, but dynamic. It can change.)

2) Shafer and company have to win. Zero sum game. Yes, good 'chemistry' and a good mix of kids is important. Absolutely. But you have to have elite talent. That will essentially require that they, at a minimum, are taking calculated risks. There's simply no way around it in big time athletics today.

 

[tep624]

I think some folks consider him a bad kid for flipping and that is silly. I don't think any of us were too enamored with the whole point system thing but if we had gotten the most points no one would have minded it. There are people still hammering Zach Allen for flipping. I am totally fine with HCSS closing the door on Brown and I totally understand it but let's not turn this kid into Lawrence Phillips Part 2

Considering him a bad kid for flipping is silly. Even bringing Lawrence Phillips or a trainwreck like him into the discussion is silly.

Considering him to have character concerns because he flipped at the absolute last minute possible and did so in a way in which he insulted the program is not silly.

 

[tep624]

Whatever , the point is this -- the staff was desperately hoping to sign Malik brown until he spurned them on signing day. Not a terribly strong showing of character. Yet, had he signed, he would have been one of those hard-nosed high character guys.

Well yeah had he signed we would have all been excited about it, but if we signed 25 5 star recruits last year we would have all been excited about that as well. I'm only concerned with what actually happened, not what could have happened. And based on his actions, at a minimum, he did something that would make a reasonable person question whether he has good character. Can he redeem himself? Sure. He's young, he has plenty of time to change. But personally, I don't think he should be given the opportunity to do it here and that's just my opinion.

 

[djorange1989]

Considering him a bad kid for flipping is silly. Even bringing Lawrence Phillips or a trainwreck like him into the discussion is silly.

Considering him to have character concerns because he flipped at the absolute last minute possible and did so in a way in which he insulted the program is not silly.

I agree that tossing Lawrence Philips in is hyperbole to say the least, I used exaggeration to make a point. I am not being a wiseguy by asking this, but did he specifically demean SU with something he said , or do you mean the point system thing/last minute flipping thing demeaned us? We have gotten some VERY late flips from kids in our direction, I don't think the kid has a character issue because of that. Again, to be clear, I am happy that HCSS is moving on from him, part of me thinks taking him now would be demeaning to us.

 

[billsin01]

I agree that tossing Lawrence Philips in is hyperbole to say the least, I used exaggeration to make a point. I am not being a wiseguy by asking this, but did he specifically demean SU with something he said , or do you mean the point system thing/last minute flipping thing demeaned us? We have gotten some VERY late flips from kids in our direction, I don't think the kid has a character issue because of that. Again, to be clear, I am happy that HCSS is moving on from him, part of me thinks taking him now would be demeaning to us.

Yeah, I think this sums it up well DJ. I have zero clue why people feel that Brown embarrassed the SU program. It really sucked for the staff and those of us who are fans and were excited about Brown's talent and potential, but I'm pretty sure if you took a random sampling of 500 college football fans, maybe 3 would even know who the kid was and maybe 1 or 2 might know the details of his recruitment. I'm obviously making numbers up out of thin air but I really don't his flip left some sort of stain on the program. And the kid thought better of his decision at the last minute. Maybe a bit immature but hardly unforgivable. And the kids we've flipped from other universities late in the process?

 

[billsin01]

Well yeah had he signed we would have all been excited about it, but if we signed 25 5 star recruits last year we would have all been excited about that as well. I'm only concerned with what actually happened, not what could have happened. And based on his actions, at a minimum, he did something that would make a reasonable person question whether he has good character. Can he redeem himself? Sure. He's young, he has plenty of time to change. But personally, I don't think he should be given the opportunity to do it here and that's just my opinion.

I'm not really focused on hypotheticals at all -- I'm talking about the facts. The staff heavily recruited Brown (presumably taking into account all these mysterious character attributes), offered him a scholarship and then secured a commit. They were clearly hoping to see a fax on LOI day and have Brown in the program for the next 4 or 5 years. None of those things can be disputed. So the point is, they thought he had impeccable character for several months or more than a year and then it turned out it was all a big rouse and he was actually a kid with questionable character and integrity?

Makes no sense. I just see it this way: He was a really talented kid who didn't have any major red flags. At the last second he decided to a go to a higher-profile program. It happens.

 

[tep624]

I'm not really focused on hypotheticals at all -- I'm talking about the facts. The staff heavily recruited Brown (presumably taking into account all these mysterious character attributes), offered him a scholarship and then secured a commit. They were clearly hoping to see a fax on LOI day and have Brown in the program for the next 4 or 5 years. None of those things can be disputed. So the point is, they thought he had impeccable character for several months or more than a year and then it turned out it was all a big rouse and he was actually a kid with questionable character and integrity?

Makes no sense. I just see it this way: He was a really talented kid who didn't have any major red flags. At the last second he decided to a go to a higher-profile program. It happens.

It makes no sense that people that you think are honorable make poor decisions based on bad judgement? It happens all the time.

And no one (not me at least) is saying he had red flags before what he pulled on signing day - what he did on signing day is the red flag. You couple that with flaming out at Tennessee (whatever the reason) and it does make cause for concern.

 

[tep624]

I agree that tossing Lawrence Philips in is hyperbole to say the least, I used exaggeration to make a point. I am not being a wiseguy by asking this, but did he specifically demean SU with something he said , or do you mean the point system thing/last minute flipping thing demeaned us? We have gotten some VERY late flips from kids in our direction, I don't think the kid has a character issue because of that. Again, to be clear, I am happy that HCSS is moving on from him, part of me thinks taking him now would be demeaning to us.

The point system thing is absolutely demeaning. I think by flipping you're making an obvious statement that you feel one school fits your needs better than the other.

And like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I don't have a problem with flipping in general, I just think it's incredibly disrespectful to do it on signing day for a number of reasons.

 

[CU44SE]

Its exactly what Finwad and what SS has said hundreds of times, he only wants kids that want to be here. Why in the world would he then go against that and accept a kid that spurned us at the last second after committing? That is a kid that didnt want to be here, plain and simple.

 

[billsin01]

It makes no sense that people that you think are honorable make poor decisions based on bad judgement? It happens all the time.

And no one (not me at least) is saying he had red flags before what he pulled on signing day - what he did on signing day is the red flag. You couple that with flaming out at Tennessee (whatever the reason) and it does make cause for concern.

I agree with the first part, which is why I think it's tough to really judge harshly (or accurately) on character. An immature 16-year-old on the wrong path can and often will straighten out a bit by the time he's 19 or 20, especially if an attentive coaching staff can assist in the process. Ruling out a talented kid who's had some rough patches, academically or legally/socially, or comes from a family that has fallen apart in one way or another just seems short-sighted and runs contrary to the stated mission of any institution of higher learning. Take a young, impressionable kid and try to help him/her grow into more mature young adults. Now I'm skeptical enough that I think most coaches know their job depends on winning and they tend to basically not care much about things outside of talent, but either way, ruling out kids with some hiccups on the ol' college application makes little sense.

As for the second part -- I don't know. We can agree to disagree. My feeling is that if the staff is moving on it probably has more to do with who they have than the events of the past year or so. Just my opinion. Either way, I agree that I'm fine with them moving in a different direction.

 

[TheCusian]

You don't think Shafer is doing what? Taking chances on kids who may be borderline by some measure of character (grades, behavior, family background ...)? I can guarantee you he is and, not only that, but he should be. The idea that a kid should not be given a chance because of a scrape or two with the law or whatever in the past doesn't make a whole lot sense. Obviously tis is going to backfire occasionally but perhaps some of these kids mature or turn things around somehow. That's far more valuable than giving a scholarship to a kid who's parents have been sending him to a QB camp in california for the past five years.

I don't think Shafer is taking a lot of chances on non-character guys. From his signing day press conference, he said exactly that - given a choice between a high character kid with less talent and a low character kid with more talent - he's taking the high character kid.

This isn't what I'm thinking or hoping - it's from his mouth, and his actions back it up.

 

[billsin01]

I don't think Shafer is taking a lot of chances on non-character guys. From his signing day press conference, he said exactly that - given a choice between a high character kid with less talent and a low character kid with more talent - he's taking the high character kid.

This isn't what I'm thinking or hoping - it's from his mouth, and his actions back it up.

Fair enough. I don't believe it's that black and white most of the time. Character is a mercurial thing and difficult to judge. And talent is something you can judge fairly accurately. It's also absolutely essential and arguably as important any other aspect of a program. I have to believe -- and perhaps I'm only a hopeless cynic -- that character largely translates to 'do we believe this kid is capable of essentially keeping his nose clean for four years and do we believe he'll work pretty hard at being a football player.' (and even that's tough to judge.) That's a far cry from recruiting a bunch of civic-minded, well-rounded student athletes who are volunteering time to help underprivileged and special needs children each week and carrying a 3.5 in engineering. Just my opinion as a person who has heard plenty of statements uttered by football coaches in my time.

 

[tep624]

I agree with the first part, which is why I think it's tough to really judge harshly (or accurately) on character. An immature 16-year-old on the wrong path can and often will straighten out a bit by the time he's 19 or 20, especially if an attentive coaching staff can assist in the process. Ruling out a talented kid who's had some rough patches, academically or legally/socially, or comes from a family that has fallen apart in one way or another just seems short-sighted and runs contrary to the stated mission of any institution of higher learning. Take a young, impressionable kid and try to help him/her grow into more mature young adults. Now I'm skeptical enough that I think most coaches know their job depends on winning and they tend to basically not care much about things outside of talent, but either way, ruling out kids with some hiccups on the ol' college application makes little sense.

As for the second part -- I don't know. We can agree to disagree. My feeling is that if the staff is moving on it probably has more to do with who they have than the events of the past year or so. Just my opinion. Either way, I agree that I'm fine with them moving in a different direction.

Funny thing is, I'm arguing in this thread that Malik Brown disrespected us with his flip and arguing elsewhere that Dante Davis didn't disrespect us with his decommit. For me it really comes down to how he did it is all, left a bad taste in my mouth.