Marrone and Rahme are just plain wrong

[Millhouse]

Millhouse: A master at taking words out of context and making "implications" that don't exist. And the rest of us are meatheads. Some things never change. The article implies Marrone is worried about Smith's running ability only in your narrow world. I talked to him for quite a while, and that concern never arose. And never mind that R-R0d himself told me a QB with the ability to run was an essential part his zone-read option spread offense. I think the story said Smith was throwing the ball 45 times a game, but of course by omitting that you are able to make your case in your typical fashion. Now carry on with the attacks. It is what you do and have done best for more than a decade now.

If Marrone isn't concerned about Smith's running ability, that shoots down his idea that it's very difficult to run without the "exact formula of the quarterback who can potentially run"

I'm not taking anything out of context. And I didn't call you a meathead. Yet. I said you were wrong. OOOOO attack!

Explain to me how i get the context wrong.

Holgorson doesn't run the same offense as Rich Rodriguez! You say in your article that Rodriguez installed it but now Holgorson directs it. I bet Holgorson would beg to differ.

You seem to think that Holgorson just took Rodriguez's offense that requires a running qb and just happens to throw a lot more out of it.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

If Marrone isn't concerned about Smith's running ability, that shoots down his idea that it's very difficult to run without the "exact formula of the quarterback who can potentially run"

I'm not taking anything out of context. And I didn't call you a meathead. Yet. I said you were wrong. OOOOO

Explain to me how i get the context wrong.

Holgorson doesn't run the same offense as Rich Rodriguez! You say in your article that Rodriguez installed it but now Holgorson directs it. I bet Holgorson would beg to differ.

I don't remember any of Leach's teams shoving the ball into a running backs gut as he read the DE on the edge.. call me crazy... Their system is all about crossing patterns and outs... timing with the wr.

 

[rrlbees]

In fairness to marrone, and I also have my doubts, he inherited a o-line that was 1AA level

Actually he didn't (tho it wasn't a line of studs by any imagination), but a few left whether they wanted to or not. One, who would be a senior this year was a freshman AA by one mag and would be our starting LT or RT.

 

[dollarbill44]

He is not convinced that the spread is an equalizing element for an otherwise inferior team.

Hawaii, SMU, Houston, Texas Tech

all powerhouses that weren't otherwise inferior.

Which of those teams was a "powerhouse"?

 

[Millhouse]

Which of those teams was a "powerhouse"?

none of them. i was being sarcastic

 

[ImperialOrange]

I think this a nice way of saying "we don't want to line up in the spread and watch teams run right by Hay all day". I really think if we had any sort of depth on the Oline we'd see someone else get a shot. As it stands, the 2nd string is all 1st year players.

If Nassib had Pat White speed he could expolit that all day. Geno Smith would likely struggle behind our line and probably look alot like Nassib.

As to the margin or error... well I'd say it's bigger than it's been considering how many errors we have made in games and still come away with wins in 4 of them. Bigger margin, we're just using most or all of it this year.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Other than Pugh who was a GROB recruit originally, I think the O Line is all Marrone. In addution, if the talent was bad why have not recruited over some of it at the skill spots! Year 3 people, not year 1

 

[orangenirvana]

I support Marrone (at this time), but I must admit...this article scares the crap out of me.

I think Marrone can be a very good head coach...but he needs to find an offensive coordinator that can install his own system and take all responsibility, much like he has in Shafer. Marrone needs to keep his hands off, because what he and his glorified intern are doing with the offense is not working.

And this article further proves that his vision of a college offense is off.

I guess we will see tomorrow night if he can save face and make it seems as if what he says in this article is somewhat accurate.

OTOH, if WVU kills us...then Marrone has some splainin' to do.

 

[Chip]

Multiple = zero identity.

...

You know, yeah, I think that's right actually.

I don't mind the concept of being multiple, an offense that can do about anything at any time from any formation (at least that's how I think of it). But the problem is you can become ok at everything but not really good at any one thing. And ultimately see all the execution mistakes that we are making. Only takes one guy to fail in execution on a play and it can blow the whole thing up. You only get so much practice time, unless you're Rich Rod and just ignore that.

I thought the most interesting quote from SWC's post last night was the staff realizing they aren't going back to plays that worked enough. I don't just fault our staff for being guilty of this, many offensive coaches do it, I just never got why. It's as if you tried something, and it worked. Well now the opponent has seen it and it's on film, so everyone will be planning for it. So we can't run that ever again.

Every offense needs to execute, it's not unique to us. But our coaching staff, when they talk about it, seem to make it sound like it's a lot harder to do in our offense.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Other than Pugh who was a GROB recruit originally, I think the O Line is all Marrone. In addution, if the talent was bad why have not recruited over some of it at the skill spots! Year 3 people, not year 1

55 of 85 are freshman and sophomores

 

[DaveR52]

DM on Monday: "I would say the same elements are still there. They still spread the field. They still have dangerous skill players on the field where if you commit yourself to one, the other one can hurt you; if you commit yourself to coverage, the run can hurt you; or if you’re going after the quarterback, then you’re one-on-one in some situations. So that’s the pressure they put on you from an offensive standpoint, and they do an excellent job of that."
I took that to mean it was the same basic approach R-Rod used. It I erred the fault is mine and not Marrone's. I was referring to the zone-read option offense when I wrote the story, the one that shredded SU for much of the previous decade. I did note in the story that Smith was averaging 45 passes a game. However, I am fair game if WVU is not running an offense that contains "the same elements" this year as it did in previous years.

 

[dollarbill44]

none of them. i was being sarcastic

Ok. Then it was a very odd way of making your point. Those teams all sold out their defenses to create offenses that scored a ton of points, yet their records would indicate that it was a marginally successful strategy, which actually proves Marrone's point that it's about wins and losses and not offensive statistics.

 

[kingottoiii]

DM on Monday: "I would say the same elements are still there. They still spread the field. They still have dangerous skill players on the field where if you commit yourself to one, the other one can hurt you; if you commit yourself to coverage, the run can hurt you; or if you’re going after the quarterback, then you’re one-on-one in some situations. So that’s the pressure they put on you from an offensive standpoint, and they do an excellent job of that."
I took that to mean it was the same basic approach R-Rod used. It I erred the fault is mine and not Marrone's. I was referring to the zone-read option offense when I wrote the story, the one that shredded SU for much of the previous decade. I did note in the story that Smith was averaging 45 passes a game. However, I am fair game if WVU is not running an offense that contains "the same elements" this year as it did in previous years.

They started to go away from the zone read last year. Smith really cannot run it. Now they are not even close to it. They barely even try running the ball anymore. They have around 700 yards rushing in 6 games this year. Their game vs BG they ran for around 350 yards. That is pretty amazing. However the other 5 games they have around 350 yards rushing COMBINED. Not sure what happened that BG game, but their other games they didn't bother to try and run.

 

[Millhouse]

Ok. Then it was a very odd way of making your point. Those teams all sold out their defenses to create offenses that scored a ton of points, yet their records would indicate that it was a marginally successful strategy, which actually proves Marrone's point that it's about wins and losses and not offensive statistics.

you really think the improvements at SMU, Texas Tech, Hawaii, and Houston are marginal?

we all fondly remember those juggernaut defenses at SMU just prior to June Jones got there and sold them out oh sorry sarcasm alert!

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Rahme:
When it possesses the proper elements – a quarterback who can run, lots of speed and game-breaking potential at receiver and lighter, more athletic linemen capable of zone blocking – and is run properly the spread can be explosive.
Marrone:
The one point about that offense is if you don’t have the exact formula of the quarterback who can potentially run, the players on the outside who can win and a line that understands that kind of blocking then it becomes very difficult

Aye yi yi

The Air Raid doesn't need a running QB *at all*. I can't believe both of these guys think it does.

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_c_34.html

I just hope that we don't see First Down: Run Bailey into the line for 1 yard, Second Down: Run Bailey into the line for 1 yard, Third Down: Slant pass - oops...incomplete. Punt. If I see that, I'm gonna barf up my Blue Monkey Sushi Dinner all over whoever is sitting in front of me.

 

[kingottoiii]

I don't mind the concept of being multiple, an offense that can do about anything at any time from any formation (at least that's how I think of it). But the problem is you can become ok at everything but not really good at any one thing. And ultimately see all the execution mistakes that we are making. Only takes one guy to fail in execution on a play and it can blow the whole thing up. You only get so much practice time, unless you're Rich Rod and just ignore that.

I thought the most interesting quote from SWC's post last night was the staff realizing they aren't going back to plays that worked enough. I don't just fault our staff for being guilty of this, many offensive coaches do it, I just never got why. It's as if you tried something, and it worked. Well now the opponent has seen it and it's on film, so everyone will be planning for it. So we can't run that ever again.

Every offense needs to execute, it's not unique to us. But our coaching staff, when they talk about it, seem to make it sound like it's a lot harder to do in our offense.

IMO you cannot succeed at being multiple unless you have a ton of talent. You need an OL that can power block, zone block, and pass block. You need fast RBs and power RBs. You need a passing and running QB. You need big WRs and small quick WRs. It really is not possible to do this. Just about every team will have a deficiency somewhere. An O should be tailored to maximize your strengths and hide your weaknesses.

Then we have the execution point you made. Every team needs a bread and butter. Something they are good at executing. Then from there you can call plays feeding off of that. How can you expect to execute everything?

 

[Chip]

I also don't know how much I buy into this point of we're putting our best athletes on defense instead of offense? How many people does this really apply to?

Dyshawn? Prep school moved him and he seemed to thrive.

Reddish? I think many schools were recruited him as a DB.

Graham was moved the other way (who I think might now be the key to our season on offense).

Seems like the rest of our defensive recruits were recruited by everyone to play defense. Maybe the reason we were able to land them is because we have a set system on defense, one that is attractive to players.

I show we have 32 scholarship players on D, 42 on O.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Ok. Then it was a very odd way of making your point. Those teams all sold out their defenses to create offenses that scored a ton of points, yet their records would indicate that it was a marginally successful strategy, which actually proves Marrone's point that it's about wins and losses and not offensive statistics.

I decided to look up their records. Comparison is against our 16-15 record under Marrone.

Hawaii: 19-16
SMU: 20-13
Houston: 21-11
TT: 21-11

So... our strategy seems to be even more marginal, if that even makes sense, all things being equal. You can make the argument that 3 of those four schools aren't good comps because they're not BCS programs I guess.

Or, we can just call a duck a duck and say that if at best Marrone's vision on offense works someday in the future when there are other programs able to make a vision work pretty much immediately, Marrone's vision is not the optimal one.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I also don't know how much I buy into this point of we're putting our best athletes on defense instead of offense? How many people does this really apply to?

Dyshawn? Prep school moved him and he seemed to thrive.

Reddish? I think many schools were recruited him as a DB.

Graham was moved the other way (who I think might now be the key to our season on offense).

Seems like the rest of our defensive recruits were recruited by everyone to play defense. Maybe the reason we were able to land them is because we have a set system on defense, one that is attractive to players.

I show we have 32 scholarship players on D, 42 on O.

Solid post, Chip.

 

[bnoro]

I also don't know how much I buy into this point of we're putting our best athletes on defense instead of offense? How many people does this really apply to?

Dyshawn? Prep school moved him and he seemed to thrive.

Reddish? I think many schools were recruited him as a DB.

Graham was moved the other way (who I think might now be the key to our season on offense).

Seems like the rest of our defensive recruits were recruited by everyone to play defense. Maybe the reason we were able to land them is because we have a set system on defense, one that is attractive to players.

I show we have 32 scholarship players on D, 42 on O.

He was mainly talking I think about Hogue, Merk, Smith

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I also don't know how much I buy into this point of we're putting our best athletes on defense instead of offense? How many people does this really apply to?

Dyshawn? Prep school moved him and he seemed to thrive.

Reddish? I think many schools were recruited him as a DB.

Graham was moved the other way (who I think might now be the key to our season on offense).

Seems like the rest of our defensive recruits were recruited by everyone to play defense. Maybe the reason we were able to land them is because we have a set system on defense, one that is attractive to players.

I show we have 32 scholarship players on D, 42 on O.

It's really another canned answer... he just hasn't recruited players at WR, running back, O Line maybe but we shall see. He moved the best athlete Graham to WR and that appears that is may begin to be paying off. Where has Chew been? Holy cow. Marrone has recruited very poorly on offense with regard to the wr/ rb position and the fact that Nassib has not one real competitor is concerning as well. I don't think Nassib is very good but he is head and shoulders above anyone else we have. Marrone should at least have one difference maker out there at this point. It's OK to admit failure once in awhile for these guys, why does everything need to be presented in coach speak babble/ code. I don't know why anyone actually even interviews 90% of coaches anymore. They don't say a GD thing of any substance.

 

[Avatusstone28]

Agree. I have zero worry of Smith taking off and running. He is athletic but he is as little a threat to run as Nassib is. I honestly believe that our staff is worried about Smith running.

holgorson installs his offense in 3 days, marrone 3 decades.

West Virginia has better talent across the board. If SU could recruit better talent, perhaps they could have an explosive offense.

 

[Millhouse]

He was mainly talking I think about Hogue, Merk, Smith

hogue and smith would've been buried on the bench on offense.

merk is a good example though

 

[OttoinGrotto]

West Virginia has better talent across the board. If SU could recruit better talent, perhaps they could have an explosive offense.

The question is though, is the offensive production the team has the absolute best it can get out of its talent.

I'm really hard pressed to believe this is the best offense we could have right now.

 

[Millhouse]

West Virginia has better talent across the board. If SU could recruit better talent, perhaps they could have an explosive offense.

they weren't explosive last year. 370 yards to 500 yards in a year.

if we could sniff 400 someday that would be nice

http://www.dailymail.com/Sports/WVUSports/201110180155

wvu wr coach agree with me

"The bottom line is, let's get back to reality. Everywhere we've been, this has been the production. We're doing about average for what this system has done, to be honest with you. We need to understand we're not doing anything Superman-like right now. We're on track to have a very good year, but there are a lot of things we're not doing right."