Marrone and Rahme are just plain wrong

[Avatusstone28]

My head is going to explode, I can't take this anymore. Wake me up when we have an AVERAGE offense, apparently that is too much for Marrone to figure out.. What. At least are guys now know what fork to use at dinner.

You can end it now, by jumping into a gorge. It shouldn't be too difficult to find one around Ithaca.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Or, you can dig a little deeper and look at the competition against which they built those records, which I did before making my post. When you're beating up on teams like San Jose St, New Mexico St, South Frothingslosh State U, etc, it does tend to make your program look better from the outside. Just ask Schiano and Beamer.

I get that some of you would rather see a 56-49 loss than a 20-13 win. I, for one, am not in that camp.

Or, the digging deeper isn't super necessary because based on our performance against teams like Tulane and sub division teams, South Frothingslosh State U would give us a game.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well, I would be happy if our offense could get 400 yards per game.
200 rushing.
200 passing.

Get thee behind me, Coach P.

 

[MikeSU02]

I usually stay out of he meathead arguments on this board. I could care less what offense we have as long as it works - this one isn't really working. However, I have a very good feeling as to why it doesn't work - this group of upperclassman at the skill positions do not keep defensive coordinators up at night, period.
.

CIL, you clearly have more football knowledge than I do, but I have one quibble with the above statement. I think what system we have does matters. We are a private, northeastern school with limited resources compared to many other football schools.

Our offense needs to be less dependent on talent and more dependent on scheme so we don't need the same depth and talent that the other schools have.

Our offense needs to appeal to recruits to give us a fighting chance at landing some guys we otherwise would have no shot with.

Our offense needs to put butts in the seats to help with our home game atmosphere. We don't have 100K die hards that are coming every week no matter what. We have a fickle fan base as is, let alone with the ability to watch at home on a 65" hi def tv and not pay ticket prices, parking, etc. We need to put on a show each week in the Dome.

I used to not care about the offense as long as it worked, but we can't get by with that anymore, imo. Yes, it may be fine for me as a die hard fan, but we need the fence sitters to be on board. We either need a T Boone for Syracuse or we need to become the fun team to watch and play for in the NE.

Just my 0.02 cents.

 

[rrlbees]

There's likely a huge talent gap between Nassib and Loeb, who has hardly seen the field since he's been here.

Of course he's worried about Nassib getting injured.

That's what I think it is.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

CIL, you clearly have more football knowledge than I do, but I have one quibble with the above statement. I think what system we have does matters. We are a private, northeastern school with limited resources compared to many other football schools.

Our offense needs to be less dependent on talent and more dependent on scheme so we don't need the same depth and talent that the other schools have.

Our offense needs to appeal to recruits to give us a fighting chance at landing some guys we otherwise would have no shot with.

Our offense needs to put butts in the seats to help with our home game atmosphere. We don't have 100K die hards that are coming every week no matter what. We have a fickle fan base as is, let alone with the ability to watch at home on a 65" hi def tv and not pay ticket prices, parking, etc. We need to put on a show each week in the Dome.

I used to not care about the offense as long as it worked, but we can't get by with that anymore, imo. Yes, it may be fine for me as a die hard fan, but we need the fence sitters to be on board. We either need a T Boone for Syracuse or we need to become the fun team to watch and play for in the NE.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Well said, Mike. Great summary.

 

[Chip]

There's likely a huge talent gap between Nassib and Loeb, who has hardly seen the field since he's been here.

Of course he's worried about Nassib getting injured.

I bet there was an even bigger dropoff from McNabb to Madei and true freshman Nunes in 1998. Yet we let McNabb do whatever he had to do for us to be successful on offense.

We have a 4th year QB. Behind him is a 3rd year player, a 2nd year player, and a 1st year player. If we're that scared of having to go to the backup, I sense this is going to be a recurring problem, not one limited to the current situation.

 

[Bayside44]

I usually stay out of he meathead arguments on this board. I could care less what offense we have as long as it works - this one isn't really working. However, I have a very good feeling as to why it doesn't work - this group of upperclassman at the skill positions do not keep defensive coordinators up at night, period.

Rutgers, USC, and even Tulane highlighted this face by going man press with one single high safety all game long. The only receiver showing any sort of separation skills is a converted safety. Chew has speed, but weighs 165 and can't get off the line. Everyone bitches about the line, well, it's tough to block when you are facing 8 men in the box or the other teams send 7 guys on every passing down knowing your qb has major accuracy issues and your db's can lock up the wr's.

Marrone has some issues, but he's not an idiot. He's trying to sell progress to recruits. He's trying to sell wins to fans. He's not going to openly come out and say my qb is mediocre at best on a good day, I don't have a goddamned WR on this roster outside of a converted safety than can get open against press coverage, or a right tackle that can get out of his own way. There's a reason why Greg ******* Paulus was brought in.

We can go spread, watch Nassib throw 30 incompletions and lose by three touchdowns or we can win fugly. My guess is Marrone wants to eat clock and give this team a fighting chance at the end. In fact, I would be willing to bet Doug has said that off the record to a few people.

3 years ago this team had bottom half MAC type talent. Our loss to Akron and struggles at home against Buffalo proves that. Grob was a bad coach, but I don't think Nick Saban could have had gotten more than 5 wins out of those teams. SMU, Hawaii, and Texas Tech had ten times the talent we did, and I would argue still probably do. IB, I love you my brutha but four years ago you were posting in all caps that talent trumps systems, now you've done a 180.

My concern is that the new kids being brought in aren't that big of an improvement over the ones we have. I think Kobena could end up a poor man's Quadry - a kid that struggles with some drops here and there but pulls it together later on. I think West is probably a bigger version of Lemon, which is a good thing. Marrone has said they have spent the last few years putting the better athletes on D, so I will reserve judgement for now.

I may get some heat for this, but Marrones plan was never really New Orleans, it was more Northwestern's O - a spread offense than can run no huddle but also has some pro elements mixed in. I hope he hasn't scrapped that plan, and this O is actually a testament to his ability to install a system for the talent given. I believe this still may be the case when I look at the QB's being brought in: Kinder, Hunt, Broyld, even Miller had wheels (as he proved when he he decked that kid and made off with an iPhone bada-bing!).

Another reality is that we had kids here that would be upperclassmen that when they were recruited were no joke (Sales, Collier, Fairchild, even Sheeran, etc) that should be carrying the load now. Hard to be very innovative when you don't have that much to work with.

My 2 cents is that I think we'll eventually have guys like Hunt, Broyld running the show, and we'll look more like VT in that respect, with a defense that continues to bring it. They win and that's fine by me.

 

[Avatusstone28]

I know we all get frustrated with what appears to be the slow development of an offense that can consistently put points on the board, but the bottom line is 4-8, 8-5, 4-2. Until the bottom line says something else, we have to be pleased overall with the progress.

Indeed. We could still be living in the G-Rob era.

 

[OttoMets]

I bet there was an even bigger dropoff from McNabb to Madei and true freshman Nunes in 1998. Yet we let McNabb do whatever he had to do for us to be successful on offense.

I don't think it's the talent "gap" per se. More an indictment of the capabilities of the back-up.

Say McNabb was a 9 and Williams/Nunes were like a 4. If Nassib is a 6 but Loeb and the young kids are 2s, it's a smaller talent gap, but we'll have no chance at being competitive if Nassib gets hurt.

I'd like to see Nassib run more; I think that option could open things up. I'd also hate to see us lose our next 6 games because Nassib gets hurt and his back-up is worse than Chad Elliott. It looks like the coaching staff wants to reduce the possibility of that happening.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I know we all get frustrated with what appears to be the slow development of an offense that can consistently put points on the board, but the bottom line is 4-8, 8-5, 4-2. Until the bottom line says something else, we have to be pleased overall with the progress.

This says it all.

The only thing more disgusting than Hackett's play calling, is seeing three pages of gloom and doom a day before the biggest game of the year. Talking yet again about the system and the talent, the two things that aren't going to be quick fixes, no matter how many ranting threads get started.

 

[kingottoiii]

I'd like to see Nassib run more; I think that option could open things up. I'd also hate to see us lose our next 6 games because Nassib gets hurt and his back-up is worse than Chad Elliott. It looks like the coaching staff wants to reduce the possibility of that happening.

Disagree. Should Nassib get hurt we can just run the O we run now. Try and pound the ball away and throw only when needed, while trying to shorten the game. Using that with Loeb or Kinder at QB we would still have a good shot at getting to a Bowl. Heck you can move Bailey or Lemon at QB and it wouldn't be much worse than what we have seen the last 2 games. I think Nassib is a lot better than all of those guys, but the O we run requires very little from the QB.

 

[Chip]

I don't think it's the talent "gap" per se. More an indictment of the capabilities of the back-up.

Say McNabb was a 9 and Williams/Nunes were like a 4. If Nassib is a 6 but Loeb and the young kids are 2s, it's a smaller talent gap, but we'll have no chance at being competitive if Nassib gets hurt.

I'd like to see Nassib run more; I think that option could open things up. I'd also hate to see us lose our next 6 games because Nassib gets hurt and his back-up is worse than Chad Elliott. It looks like the coaching staff wants to reduce the possibility of that happening.

If Loeb, Kinder and Hunt are a lower ranking than Madei and Nunes were in 1998 (not talking about senior year Nunes), then goodbye cruel world, I'm jumping out the window.

If McNabb was a 9, then Madei/Nunes were a negative 30 as backups. 1999 spring game? 1999 season? I'm using that as the basis, and I hope the current backups are at least somewhere in between.

The more I think about this, Marrone is probably completely scarred head to toe from the injuries.

 

[rrlbees]

Disagree. Should Nassib get hurt we can just run the O we run now. Try and pound the ball away and throw only when needed, while trying to shorten the game. Using that with Loeb or Kinder at QB we would still have a good shot at getting to a Bowl. Heck you can move Bailey or Lemon at QB and it wouldn't be much worse than what we have seen the last 2 games. I think Nassib is a lot better than all of those guys, but the O we run requires very little from the QB.

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

 

[OttoMets]

Disagree. Should Nassib get hurt we can just run the O we run now. Try and pound the ball away and throw only when needed, while trying to shorten the game. Using that with Loeb or Kinder at QB we would still have a good shot at getting to a Bowl. Heck you can move Bailey or Lemon at QB and it wouldn't be much worse than what we have seen the last 2 games. I think Nassib is a lot better than all of those guys, but the O we run requires very little from the QB.

That's the assumption I would make, but it seems very likely that the coaching staff sees it differently. I can't think of any other reason for not freeing Nassib to run (unless they think he wouldn't be productive).

 

[OttoMets]

If Loeb, Kinder and Hunt are a lower ranking than Madei and Nunes were in 1998 (not talking about senior year Nunes), then goodbye cruel world, I'm jumping out the window.

If McNabb was a 9, then Madei/Nunes were a negative 30 as backups. 1999 spring game? 1999 season? I'm using that as the basis, and I hope the current backups are at least somewhere in between.

The more I think about this, Marrone is probably completely scarred head to toe from the injuries.

Haha, I don't know. Did Loeb look better in the spring game this year than Madei and Nunes looked in 1998 or 1999? I didn't attend either.

I agree with the last bit. Marrone sees 30 players get injured in two years, he's probably more than a little gun-shy.

 

[Chip]

Haha, I don't know. Did Loeb look better in the spring game this year than Madei and Nunes looked in 1998 or 1999? I didn't attend either.

I agree with the last bit. Marrone sees 30 players get injured in two years, he's probably more than a little gun-shy.

You could have grabbed a 7 year old out of the spring game crowd and asked him to run the offense. I guarantee that he wouldn't have looked worse than Nunes/Madei in that 1999 Spring Game. May not have looked better, but certainly not worse. At one point, I just thought P&D were with us because they had a great sense of humor. Then I remembered that they don't. Then I realized I was terrified about the 1999 season.

 

[OttoMets]

You could have grabbed a 7 year old out of the spring game crowd and asked him to run the offense. I guarantee that he wouldn't have looked worse than Nunes/Madei in that 1999 Spring Game. May not have looked better, but certainly not worse. At one point, I just thought P&D were with us because they had a great sense of humor. Then I remembered that they don't. Then I realized I was terrified about the 1999 season.

I'm glad I didn't know that at the time. It would've ruined my summer.

 

[orangenirvana]

At one point, I just thought P&D were with us because they had a great sense of humor. Then I remembered that they don't. Then I realized I was terrified about the 1999 season.

LOL - that's funny.

 

[RoysRunts]

Poor Broyld, Seem's like a good candidate for the spread

 

[OrangePA]

Rahme:
When it possesses the proper elements – a quarterback who can run, lots of speed and game-breaking potential at receiver and lighter, more athletic linemen capable of zone blocking – and is run properly the spread can be explosive.
Marrone:
The one point about that offense is if you don’t have the exact formula of the quarterback who can potentially run, the players on the outside who can win and a line that understands that kind of blocking then it becomes very difficult

Aye yi yi

The Air Raid doesn't need a running QB *at all*. I can't believe both of these guys think it does.

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_c_34.html

So, you understand offensive football better than Coach Marrone?

Aye, yi, yi!

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that every QB we have faced this year - other than perhaps the Nova kid for Rutgers - was able to run with the ball far better than Nassib, whose feet are more Perry Patterson than even Troy Nunes.

And, Rutgers demonstrated that our WRs have great difficulty getting off the line of scrimmage - every route was jumped during that game without any negative consequence. I can understand Marrone's calculus.

 

[Chip]

So, you understand offensive football better than Coach Marrone?

Aye, yi, yi!

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that every QB we have faced this year - other than perhaps the Nova kid for Rutgers - was able to run with the ball far better than Nassib, whose feet are more Perry Patterson than even Troy Nunes.

And, Rutgers demonstrated that our WRs have great difficulty getting off the line of scrimmage - every route was jumped during that game without any negative consequence. I can understand Marrone's calculus.

Yet he was our mix it up option QB in 2009. Showed useful (not dynamic) speed in TD runs against Akron and Washington in 2010, used his legs to extend some drives in the Pinstripe Bowl. I guess this is just one of those rare cases where the calculus is easier than the algebra.

 

[Phillymoose]

You guys enjoying this little group therapy session?

Seriously. What a circle jerk.

Gee - is it so hard to understand that not all spread offenses are created equal, and that each requires the right components to work? It is entirely possible that a TT type offense, or the one that Houston ran in the early 90's, is simply not in the conversation because our coach is not a believer.

Yes - those offenses put up ridiculous numbers, but yes - those offenses ultimately did squat against top 25 teams (with an exception here or there). I don't want to be the Loyola Maramount of college football.

I'd rather have a sustainable arc of progress than be a flash in the pan vs. weak competition. In our (recent) glories days under P, we beat some great football teams. Houston never did. I believe our coach is building this program the old fashioned way - and when we get to where he wants us, we'll be competing again with the big boys. Ultimately it is you clowns who are the ones pining for mediocrity.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So, you understand offensive football better than Coach Marrone?

I think that's in play for Millhouse, yeah actually.

Yup. I just went there. Let it be known that I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility for a common message board poster to know more about football.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'd rather have a sustainable arc of progress than be a flash in the pan vs. weak competition.

We don't know if we have a sustainable arc of progress. We aren't even a flash in the pan vs. weak competition, at least offensively.