Marrone and Rahme are just plain wrong

[OrangeFoo]

Just want to belatedly add a few thoughts:

• This might be one of the most well thought out and entertaining threads I have seen in a very long time. I applaud everyone involved
• After 5 pages of posts I have yet to see two things explained:

1. I have seen a lot of people say that the line play is causing our problems and I definitely agree. Having said that one of the best ways to mitigate poor line play is to spread the other team out and hit them with a lot of quick hitters kind of like the Buffalo Bills are doing. Why has the coaching staff not identified that and gone that route? Or I should say gone that route more often.
2. This team has looked the most efficient on offense when we have spread the other team out by having lots of receivers on the field. This has opened up the run game as Bailey has to only beat one man and our oline doesn't have to deal with as many stunts by the dlinemen and it opens up the 5 yard out to WRs which Lemon ran all day against USC. That 5 yard pass is amazingly effective because it will put us in reasonable 2nd and 3rd down positions. Again why has the coaching staff not identified this and gone that route as we have proof that it works even with this sorry oline?

 

[Scooch]

Someone smarter than me (most of you) please explain something...

The argument I seem to be hearing is that we're running this offensive "system", or at least taking this offensive approach, as a means to grind out wins. Basically the ol' faithful of run clock, don't turn the ball over, maybe score once or twice, and let the D get the win.

But here's where I get lost... we don't own time of possession (110th in TOP; 66th in 3rd down conversion rate), and we still turn the ball over (better than average to be fair, 14-way tie at #33,) So what exactly are we gaining by playing this way?

It's almost literally impossible for us to possess the ball less! Isn't this going to put even more stress on a D we need to carry us?

I totally get that we have talent limitations, no one disputes that. But it's worrisome that our strategy right now seems to be "do it the same but do it better"... cause if our talent is that bad, let's be real, we ain't going to be doing it better. So maybe, you know, do something different?

 

[RoysRunts]

Doug can't Hack-ett

 

[OrangePA]

I didn't say you were stupid. I called your post stupid nonsense.

I'm surprised I made such an impression on you. I'm sorry I don't remember how your mood was 7 years ago.

Marrone came to SU in 1982, left in 1985, and graduated in 1991. Some really smart people take that long to graduate - they're called doctors.

Yeah, I remember thinking that you were actually upset that the Orange had won because there had been talk that a loss - and a reulsting 5-7 record would have sealed P's SU coaching fate. You do remember meeting just outside the Sheraton bar after the game, don't you?

I have a friend from IU who graduated late, had a very low GPA, and switched majors three or four times. He ended up getting a job in Houson in 1981 - stayed there for two years and then took a job waiting tables at the Spaghetti Factory in Indianapolis.

He eventually got a job selling orthopedic equipment. In five years he was a part owner of the company - knew as much about orthopedic surgery as most of the surgeons he met and is now a multi-millionaire.

I have another friend who took seven years - seven years! - to graduate from dental school. He is now considered one of the finest dentists in his area and has been asked by the IU Dental School to become a member of its Board of Trustees.

Like I said, it's always dangerous to assess another person's intelligence on the fly. Guaging IQ on the basis of graduation dates is not the best way to measure much of anything.

As other posters have observed, the SU offense is not a lot of fun to watch. I prefer a more open approach - I liked the Spence offense a lot for gosh sakes and when it was cooking I loved the DeLeone offense with its options and misdirection. And, I love a running QB. That's why I hope that JFK or Hunt can develope quickly.

I also agree with those who feel that our talent level is not strong enough to simply pound the ball.

But I don't presume to know enough about the x's and o's, however, to declare that Marrone is implementing the wrong scheme. I suspect that he is using a system that gives the team the best chance to win.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're right. I suspect that when we see more athleticism at QB and WR we will see a much more open approach.

 

[Cuseregular]

I usually stay out of he meathead arguments on this board. I could care less what offense we have as long as it works - this one isn't really working. However, I have a very good feeling as to why it doesn't work - this group of upperclassman at the skill positions do not keep defensive coordinators up at night, period.

Rutgers, USC, and even Tulane highlighted this face by going man press with one single high safety all game long. The only receiver showing any sort of separation skills is a converted safety. Chew has speed, but weighs 165 and can't get off the line. Everyone bitches about the line, well, it's tough to block when you are facing 8 men in the box or the other teams send 7 guys on every passing down knowing your qb has major accuracy issues and your db's can lock up the wr's.

Marrone has some issues, but he's not an idiot. He's trying to sell progress to recruits. He's trying to sell wins to fans. He's not going to openly come out and say my qb is mediocre at best on a good day, I don't have a goddamned WR on this roster outside of a converted safety than can get open against press coverage, or a right tackle that can get out of his own way. There's a reason why Greg ******* Paulus was brought in.

We can go spread, watch Nassib throw 30 incompletions and lose by three touchdowns or we can win fugly. My guess is Marrone wants to eat clock and give this team a fighting chance at the end. In fact, I would be willing to bet Doug has said that off the record to a few people.

3 years ago this team had bottom half MAC type talent. Our loss to Akron and struggles at home against Buffalo proves that. Grob was a bad coach, but I don't think Nick Saban could have had gotten more than 5 wins out of those teams. SMU, Hawaii, and Texas Tech had ten times the talent we did, and I would argue still probably do. IB, I love you my brutha but four years ago you were posting in all caps that talent trumps systems, now you've done a 180.

My concern is that the new kids being brought in aren't that big of an improvement over the ones we have. I think Kobena could end up a poor man's Quadry - a kid that struggles with some drops here and there but pulls it together later on. I think West is probably a bigger version of Lemon, which is a good thing. Marrone has said they have spent the last few years putting the better athletes on D, so I will reserve judgement for now.

I may get some heat for this, but Marrones plan was never really New Orleans, it was more Northwestern's O - a spread offense than can run no huddle but also has some pro elements mixed in. I hope he hasn't scrapped that plan, and this O is actually a testament to his ability to install a system for the talent given. I believe this still may be the case when I look at the QB's being brought in: Kinder, Hunt, Broyld, even Miller had wheels (as he proved when he he decked that kid and made off with an iPhone bada-bing!).

Solid. IB would be happier if he attended any of Marrones luncheons where it's not just coach speak going on. Where he intimated exactly as you posted on the future with the type of qb's now working their way up the system. It is what it is, fugly, but as you note better to be competitive with a chance to win vs. losing to get this program where it wants to be. Really great insightful post bud. Off to Hamilton once again BTW to watch them rally...

 

[RoysRunts]

Frank Maloney had 6 years and the 59 Team wanted him Gone, Give Doug Time

 

[billsin01]

I too want an offense that scores points, but I'd rather have a team that wins.

OK, so I'm very late to this thread and I'm sure we're beating a dead horse at this point, but I have to disagree with much of this post. First, for the above, I think it's generally accepted that an offense that scores points is a big part of a team that wins games. I don't have hard data, but there just aren't a lot of teams consistently winning games 17-12 and ending up 11-1 and in the BCS.

I think you're missing my point, which is this offense doesn't have the talent to run any type of effective offense, spread or flexbone. Marrone's belief is that this vanilla pro style offense helps them eat the clock and move the chains. Is it boring? Yup. Are we winning games? Yup.

I give Marrone a ton of credit for winning games thus far but I don't get where you see us eating the clock, moving the chains or, to be perfectly honest, outside of a couple games and a couple key drives (USF last year, Wake) where this offense or this offensive system has truly helped us win games.

Once again, I will reiterate the offense we are seeing isn't the one we will have in a few years. He's trying to sell improvement to recruits and fans. That's really tough to do when you lose.

Please don't tell me this. Please God don't tell me this. A FEW years? We're supposed to give him, what, five years? No way. That's simply absurd. What coach has had a bland, inconsistent, unproductive offense for four or five years and then simply started piling up yardage and points? Absurd.

 

[billsin01]

I don't think that what we're seeing on the field is a byproduct of Marrone's "system," I think the coaches are calling a small subset of plays that they think the offense can execute because the OL sucks and we don't have any players on offense [other than Bailey and Provo] who would crack a top 25 lineup, and because when we DO throw the QB rarely has time to let the play develop before the pass rush gets there.

I've seen this excuse a ton, but I'd like to bring up two points:

1) How about all the IAA teams that have piled up yardage and points against us? How about Toledo? Those weren't teams that physically outmatched us offensively.

2) Marrone and Adkins are our OL coaches. We're not absolving Marrone by blaming an offensive line. That's HIS group! And believe me, coaching is huge in that area. I watched ND suck on the offensive line throughout John Latina's tenure only to play immeasurably better under Verducci and Ed Warriner (Kelly's guy). I'm not advocating we fire anyone, but the fact this OL has not taken significant steps forward is concerning any way you slice it -- regardless of talent and depth (which I agree is also a concern).

3) The perfect foil here is Shafer's defense. That was a group that everyone said for four years under GRob had ZERO talent and was way too slow. Then they were a top 25 defense for two years. Did they all of a sudden explode talent-wise? No, the guy has a great system that puts good players in positions to make plays. Yes, Hogue moved to defense and Derrell SMith was really good, but seriously? That group lost Art Jones and still played well. He helped D'amon Merkerson, who switched back and forth between offense and defense 872 times in his career, look like a really viable corner with strong coverage skills.

I don't know. I love Marrone and think he's done a fabulous job, but I'm not sure how anyone here makes themselves sleep better at night by thinking QB, talent and/or time are going to solve the offensive woes for this team. They would all help, but the issues run deeper, IMO.

 

[Scooch]

First, for the above, I think it's generally accepted that an offense that scores points is a big part of a team that wins games. I don't have hard data, but there just aren't a lot of teams consistently winning games 17-12 and ending up 11-1 and in the BCS.

Yeah, this is where I'm at and you stated it much better.

We are winning games DESPITE our horrendous offense, not in any way because of it.

I mean the argument should NOT be that we went 8-5 because of the way we played O last year... it should be that we could have gone as well as 10-3 or 11-2 if we have an offense that wasn't a trainwreck. I mean we lost games 28-20, 23-6 and 16-7. An achieving O could have won two of those, right?

 

[dollarbill44]

I need to get off this thread before I start hating SU football. There is so much negativity that it gets right to the core. I feel I need to go wash off after having read all of this, like I do after a weekend in Vegas or New Orleans, just being weighed down by shame and mental exhaustion.

 

[javadoc]

this is a painful week for me.

So I'll just ask a couple blunt questions.

Given our team rosters as they were since Marrone took over, could we have run a spread (any variant) successfully?

If so, how many more ypg and ppg do you think it would have resulted in?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Yeah, this is where I'm at and you stated it much better.

We are winning games DESPITE our horrendous offense, not in any way because of it.

I mean the argument should NOT be that we went 8-5 because of the way we played O last year... it should be that we could have gone as well as 10-3 or 11-2 if we have an offense that wasn't a trainwreck. I mean we lost games 28-20, 23-6 and 16-7. An achieving O could have won two of those, right?

well, its kinda like 'hack-a-Shaq'.

we are going to lose playing it straight and trying to go toe to toe. so lets hack Shaq, send him to the line and instead of at least 2 pts or a teammates 3pts...maybe he only makes 1 or hopefully none.
for SU, they cant outscore anyone, they also can barely stop someone from scoring. so all they can hope for is take the air out of the ball or maybe keep the enemy in lousy field position so their drives end after 30-40 yds or so.

if the caliber of opponent is lousy enough, you can lose TOP and still win. the goal here is 6 wins and a bowl game. so far so good.

the curse of grobbycakes continues...

if im still typing this in 3 years, consider me a rare bengal at dusk...

 

[Scooch]

I still don't see it UEO. We're not slowing the game down. We suck at converting 3rd downs. Every game the bad guys are running a ton more plays than us. We can't play for field position when we're not moving the ball.

I mean, look, I was thrilled to get 8 wins last year, and I'd sure as rather be 4-2 than 0-6, so I'm not callimg for heads or anything. But this ain't sustainable. No one builds a decent program that consistently has a 90th ranked offense. I know we need more talent, but just saying that and giving up until these magical diamonds-in-the-rough turn into playmakers is not what I'd call a viable strategy.

I don't care what offense we run. But we gotta find something that works. Unfortunately the Marrone who said "f$ck it, let's go for broke" back in those last 2 games of 2009 and the Pinstripe Bowl has disappeared.

And if the argument is that we don't have more talent than that 2009 O then we're really in trouble.

 

[Fjoinkay]

I need to get off this thread before I start hating SU football. There is so much negativity that it gets right to the core. I feel I need to go wash off after having read all of this, like I do after a weekend in Vegas or New Orleans, just being weighed down by shame and mental exhaustion.

I couldn't have said it better. I enjoyed the thread and learned some things to boot, but this team is 4-2 and the sky is not falling.

 

[Scooch]

I am sure that everyone discussing the statistically proven lousyness of the O, a lousyness confirmed by the head coach, will not be rooting for the Orange tommorow night.

Yeesh.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I am sure that everyone discussing the statistically proven lousyness of the O, a lousyness confirmed by the head coach, will not be rooting for the Orange tommorow night.

Yeesh.

Exactly, good lord, I never said that I hope we don't come out and run the ball for 450 yards tomorrow...

 

[sufan]

Upon further review and some sober self-scouting, I must say this story was poorly conceptualized, poorly researched and poorly executed. I am embarrassed my name is on it. I should have stuck with my original plan of writing a Nick Provo profile with the short week. I let myself be persuaded otherwise despite some issues going on outside the job. I agree with CIL that Marrone's vision is more Northwestern than New Orleans and believe I saw a lot of that early in the season before foes exposed the weaknesses, which have been well documented by me and others. I believe the mobility of Kinder, Hunt and presumably Broyld plus the premium of running quarterbacks in the ACC point in that direction. It was just a piss-poor job on my part. Unfortunately, there is no delete button in the newspaper.

------------------

We love you Dave.

Thanks for your articles and contributing to the discussion.

 

[Moontan]

he's at temple teaching WR to block on 80% of their downs.

That was in 2010. Golden didn't take him down to Miami and he seems to be out of college football this year.

 

[Cuseman78]

I know we all get frustrated with what appears to be the slow development of an offense that can consistently put points on the board, but the bottom line is 4-8, 8-5, 4-2. Until the bottom line says something else, we have to be pleased overall with the progress.

Amen

 

[Chip]

That was in 2010. Golden didn't take him down to Miami and he seems to be out of college football this year.

Syracuse is where once successful offensive coordinators go to die. Brian White, Mitch Browning, Rob Spence. Any of these guys have jobs even close to the responsibility they had at SU?

Maybe we should be happy for Hackett's on the job training. Who else would take the job since it appears to be cursed?

 

[Cuseman78]

Upon further review and some sober self-scouting, I must say this story was poorly conceptualized, poorly researched and poorly executed. I am embarrassed my name is on it. I should have stuck with my original plan of writing a Nick Provo profile with the short week. I let myself be persuaded otherwise despite some issues going on outside the job. I agree with CIL that Marrone's vision is more Northwestern than New Orleans and believe I saw a lot of that early in the season before foes exposed the weaknesses, which have been well documented by me and others. I believe the mobility of Kinder, Hunt and presumably Broyld plus the premium of running quarterbacks in the ACC point in that direction. It was just a piss-poor job on my part. Unfortunately, there is no delete button in the newspaper.

No need to apologize -- mulligan granted. You do a tremendous job covering this team.

 

[orange79]

No need to apologize -- mulligan granted. You do a tremendous job covering this team.

Ditto. Thanks, Dave! Introspection and honesty such as that is very, very rare. Kudos.

 

[Millhouse]

So I'll just ask a couple blunt questions.

Given our team rosters as they were since Marrone took over, could we have run a spread (any variant) successfully?

If so, how many more ypg and ppg do you think it would have resulted in?

WVU improved 35%

Let's say that we could only improve half as much as they did. 2010 322 yards so 2011 378 yards

378 yards would be a huge improvement.

points is a little harder to predict. Call it 25 ppg

that's just asking for half the percentage improvement that WVU got this year. it's less than half the yards improvement since syracuse is starting from a lower point than WVU did

this is assuming we had someone almost the caliber of Holgorsen. I have no idea what Hip Hop Hackett would achieve

one of these days I'll look up how teams did their first year of the air raid compared to previous years

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Reading between the lines and listening to Marrone I am kind of sensing a defeatist attitude regarding the offense. That is really discouraging because I don't know if we can win another game without a better offense because the problem is right now the defense sucks too, when your offense, defense, and special teams stink.. Let me tell you how good your team is, yeah we are 4-2 but most are hoping for 2 more wins... That is the problem, we are 4-2 with almost no shot at say 9-3 or even 8-4, most here would be tickled pink to go .500 from here on out and go 7-5. Just hate not having any firepower and having to grind so gd hard for wins versus uri and Tulane. In addition, if the d doesn't play perfectly tomorrow and we don't get 2-3 turnovers, we have absolutely zero shot at winning and that is the reality, never said we can't win but we certainly can't win going toe to toe, which sucks in itself. As many have said, Syracuse football is a very boring product...

 

[BleedsOrange44]

No need to apologize -- mulligan granted. You do a tremendous job covering this team.

Couldn't agree more. We're lucky to have Dave covering the team. Love his stuff.