Marrone talent pool

[Millhouse]

Not all air raid offenses are created equal Milly. Many run different route schemes, etc. WVU's is very different from A&M's.

The YPA is misleading as well. A good chunk of Nassib's deep throws came off of play action against 3 deep coverage. Very rarely was Ryan asked to fire one 20 yards between a linebacker and safety.

i get all that. my point was that 4 verticals doesn't mean 4 deep routes.

 

[Millhouse]

There certainly may be better players at TCU, I never said as much. But it is also an offense that is not made for his strengths, period.

MCW was great for our hoops team because he was great at the top of the zone and in the pick and roll game. We weren't asking him to be a spot shooter.

i think there is a bigger difference between playing the point and being a spot up shooter than what allen would've had to do at QB here vs there

you picked an entirely different position to make your point about MCW when we're talking about the same position in different offenses

 

[CIL]

i think there is a bigger difference between playing the point and being a spot up shooter than what allen would've had to do at QB here vs there

you picked an entirely different position to make your point about MCW when we're talking about the same position in different offenses

Why? You don't think that QB's have different skill sets? Do you think Joe Montana would have been Joe Montana in an offense that wanted a guy to push the ball downfield often?

How well would Manziel do in a pro style offense? Or RGIII for that matter?

i get all that. my point was that 4 verticals doesn't mean 4 deep routes.

Huh? 4 verticals IS 4 deep routes. It literally means 4 vertical routes. Malzhan had made a career out of the vertical passing game. Most of his passing game relies on at least 2 vertical routes in every play to try and get 2 deep options or so on a solo defender.

The entire point of my post is that Zach Allen would have had a greater probability of success given his skill set under Marrone / Hackett than he would in an offense that isnt necessarily built for his strengths. QB's are not always interchangeable.

 

[Millhouse]

Huh? 4 verticals IS 4 deep routes. It literally means 4 vertical routes. .

vertical and deep don't mean the same thing. if the WR stops and you throw it quickly, it's not deep. sure, go deep if you can but if not, lots of backshoulder throws that should be something that a very accurate qb would excel at.

 

[CIL]

vertical and deep don't mean the same thing. if the WR stops and you throw it quickly, it's not deep. sure, go deep if you can but if not, lots of backshoulder throws that should be something that a very accurate qb would excel at.

You described an option route. Not a vertical.

 

[Scooch]

I don't think you included the two bowl wins?

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Doug Marrone was or is Urban Meyer.

But, he was a very good coach on the Hill and did a great job restoring the program to respectability. With additional time and more money I have no doubt he would have continued the growth of the program.

I am still disappointed that he chose to leave.

I did include the bowl wins. They are in the years with 6 and 7 FBS total wins.

He was a good coach and he did excellent work making us respectable, we are in complete agreement there.

 

[Millhouse]

You described an option route. Not a vertical.

When teams run four verticals that's what they're doing. It's not a hail mary

 

[qdawgg]

lets see how shafer can do with a competent offensive coordinator.

Did we hire a new offensive coordinator? Did I miss something?

 

[TheCusian]

Did we hire a new offensive coordinator? Did I miss something?

If you think you know what a Lester run Syracuse offense looks like - you must be an assistant coach or something. 'Cause all we have is the spring game.

 

[qdawgg]

If you think you know what a Lester run Syracuse offense looks like - you must be an assistant coach or something. 'Cause all we have is the spring game.

Exactly, my only point is we don't know if he is competent or not. I hope he is.

 

[jgeorge322]

Did we hire a new offensive coordinator? Did I miss something?

I was waiting for this comment and all i can say is i hope.

 

[qdawgg]

I was waiting for this comment and all i can say is i hope.

I really do too. I have no reason to believe he won't but no real reason to believe there will be a big turnaround. I'm at a wait and see but I really hope we can see something with the offense this season.

 

[CIL]

When teams run four verticals that's what they're doing. It's not a hail mary

I'm not trying to be combative but you're wrong with this. Teams might run some option routes off of the four verts, but it is absolutely a staple of a Briles, Leach type of offense.

Four verts can be lethal against cover 3 teams (although run against many other D's as well like variations of cover 2, cover 2 man or combo, etc)

Here's a piece explaining it, although it's a tad dated.

http://www.cougcenter.com/2011/12/13/2633162/mike-leach-playbook-four-verticals-airraid

 

[Millhouse]

I'm not trying to be combative but you're wrong with this. Teams might run some option routes off of the four verts, but it is absolutely a staple of a Briles, Leach type of offense.

Four verts can be lethal against cover 3 teams (although run against many other D's as well like variations of cover 2, cover 2 man or combo, etc)

Here's a piece explaining it, although it's a tad dated.

http://www.cougcenter.com/2011/12/13/2633162/mike-leach-playbook-four-verticals-airraid

from that link

And that's the most interesting thing about Four Verticals, and why it's not really the sandlot play it looks like: It's usually not about beating the defense over the top. It's about finding the open space in the coverage and hitting it quickly. If you try too hard to go over the top, you give the deep defenders time to adjust to the ball in the air, unless it's acomplete blown coverage. Instead, the ball is usually delivered about 10-15 yards downfield outside one of the hashes, over the top of the underneath defenders but beneath the deep defenders:

and

Notice here how the receiver breaks off the route to sit in the zone against this Cover 2:

and

Depending on the MLBs leverage, the can run a little hook, break outside, or continue a flare up the hash. And when he catches the ball, he will need only to beat a linebacker in space for another big gain, since all the DBs are now about 20 yards downfield:

and

Still, with corners matched up on the outside one-on-one with no help, it leaves them exposed to back-shoulder fades or the receivers breaking off the route when the ball leaves the QB's hand

kentucky's OC played at Kentucky when bonner was the QB who had no arm. he said four verticals was their most called play http://cstv.collegesports.com/mt5.2/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=13&tag=Mumme&limit=20

 

[cuseincincy]

no one drafted in 2015.

my buddy is an agent who has a few former cuse players as clients with close ins to the program... said very little chance anyone gets drafted in 2016. only shot is broyld but a lot of teams are scared of his past.

at least grob left the liquor cabinet more stocked

So NFL teams are more scared off of a player because he dropped trow in high school than the fact that he's only scored 1 TD in 3 years in college?

 

[CIL]

I know you love having to get the last word in and I kind of respect that, but you're kind of punching above your weight here.

Sure, not every qb needs to have a gun in that system, but it most certainly helps Milly. I'm not sure if you know the nuances of a cover 2 defense or not, but it really helps if the QB has an arm that can deliver the ball quickly over the top of the CB who is passing off the WR to his Safety who would but closing that gap relatively quickly - all the while getting the throw over the OLB who is taking the curl throw away.

The receiver doesn't literally stop in that zone or the olb is going to take that throw away all day.

What you referenced were option routes which I do not deny exist off of a vertical passing game. However, the most effective passes in that play or system are the throws that occur in the space between the lbs and safeties. It's a big time plus if the QB can make those throws into tighter windows.

I would liken Zach Allen's skill set to Greg Paulus. Not a great arm by any means, but pretty accurate and mobile enough. If TCU has another QB with a better arm and an equal grasp of the offense, it's no wonder why Zach isn't playing.

I'm going to bow out now and I'm sure you can finish.

 

[CusefanATL]

So NFL teams are more scared off of a player because he dropped trow in high school than the fact that he's only scored 1 TD in 3 years in college?

if I said "but he measures well" how would that be taken?

 

[Millhouse]

I know you love having to get the last word in and I kind of respect that, but you're kind of punching above your weight here. Sure, not every qb needs to have a gun in that system, but it most certainly helps Milly. I'm not sure if you know the nuances of a cover 2 defense or not, but it really helps if the QB has an arm that can deliver the ball quickly over the top of the CB who is passing off the WR to his Safety who would but closing that gap relatively quickly - all the while getting the throw over the OLB who is taking the curl throw away. The receiver doesn't literally stop in that zone or the olb is going to take that throw away all day. What you referenced were option routes which I do not deny exist off of a vertical passing game. However, the most effective passes in that play or system are the throws that occur in the space between the lbs and safeties. It's a big time plus if the QB can make those throws into tighter windows. I would liken Zach Allen's skill set to Greg Paulus. Not a great arm by any means, but pretty accurate and mobile enough. If TCU has another QB with a better arm and an equal grasp of the offense, it's no wonder why Zach isn't playing. I'm going to bow out now and I'm sure you can finish.

You said four verticals was four deep routes. Then you posted that link which clearly contradicts you. I'm sure you're more fluent in meathead but I'm just reading the English that you posted back to you

 

[MadNY3]

Based on their statistical performance over the year they really should have had 9 or 10 wins. I also think they were playing with a high level of execution with a small margin of error based on talent. When they didn't have their full compliment they had issues.

That and gift points against NWestern, Rutgers, and Cinci that directly led to losses. Inability to score on the doorstep was the factor against Minny.

They should have won at least two if not all four of those games.

By the end of the year that team was easily one of the twenty best in the country.

All of what you said was oh-so true.

That damn Cincy game burns me. Helluva effort to rally against Northwestern and USC was fun to watch all things considered.

Missouri was an incredible, gutsy performance. Awing to this day. And then the systemic destruction of W VA that went against the core was simply brilliant.

I miss that. We won't out-coach too many teams with HCSS. But maybe he can field damn good talent and be good enough.