Marrone talent pool

[TheCusian]

Marrone also had the luxury of recruiting to a school that just came off of a smooth 10-37 four year run, let alone the embarrassing GameDay segment in 2008 featuring Floyd Little about how far the program has fallen. Everyone knew Syracuse was a laughingstock. The initial recruiting job he had was ridiculously challenging. So yeah, his first 2-3 years was similar to selling ice to eskimos. We need to put things into perspective.

Yeah - agree with this. I never said their weren't very good reasons for his trouble in recruiting. But the results are the results. I also can't get over the rumors of him disliking recruiting.

 

[TheCusian]

imo the biggest falsity on this board is that Marrone was this horrible recruiter, while Shafer is the 2nd coming of Urban Meyer. All things equal, i'm not sure we would see a huge difference. As you said Marrone had a very strong class going before he left, and the class before that was solid. Marrone had a lot going against him. The state of the program was in shambles, we had bottom of the barrel facilities, and Big East affiliation. Compare that to what Shafer has right now with the ACC affiliation, taking over after 2 bowl wins in 3 years, and totally renovated facilities. Even with all that we still had recruiting classes towards the bottom of the conference. Our recruiting has improved, but I would have liked to see what Shafer would have done with what Marrone inherited, and vice versa. I should also say this isn't a knock on Shafer, but more in defense of Marrone. I think just because he didn't like recruiting he gets knocked for it. Not liking it, and not knowing what he was doing are 2 different things. Plus most importantly, as you said, Marrone knew how to recruit for his system. I really think we would be a top 25 program right now if Marrone were still here.

Recruiting strikes me as one of those things you have to like to be good at. No passion = no chance with 4 star kids. His personality hurt him too. And his aloofness; closed-door policy.

No one thinks Shafer is Urban Myer (link?) ... And he def has things going in his favor that Marrone didn't. But Shafer has pulled more quality kids from Jersey than Marrone (a city guy). I like Shafers ability to identify talent early as well.

I think on the whole, Shafer is a better recruiter and Marrone is built for the NFL.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

imo the biggest falsity on this board is that Marrone was this horrible recruiter, while Shafer is the 2nd coming of Urban Meyer. All things equal, i'm not sure we would see a huge difference. As you said Marrone had a very strong class going before he left, and the class before that was solid. Marrone had a lot going against him. The state of the program was in shambles, we had bottom of the barrel facilities, and Big East affiliation. Compare that to what Shafer has right now with the ACC affiliation, taking over after 2 bowl wins in 3 years, and totally renovated facilities. Even with all that we still had recruiting classes towards the bottom of the conference. Our recruiting has improved, but I would have liked to see what Shafer would have done with what Marrone inherited, and vice versa. I should also say this isn't a knock on Shafer, but more in defense of Marrone. I think just because he didn't like recruiting he gets knocked for it. Not liking it, and not knowing what he was doing are 2 different things. Plus most importantly, as you said, Marrone knew how to recruit for his system. I really think we would be a top 25 program right now if Marrone were still here.

I agree and Marrone's teams made mistakes but there were games that were just so well orchestrated WVU ( 3 x), first game was ugly but what a huge win that was. Rutgers his first year, Louisville in the dome, the run his last 5 games his last year. Shafer doesn't have one of those games in 2 years. Good bowl win, I guess but that is it.

Shafer has a lot of work to do. He needs to figure out the offense and until Washington verballed here, I don't think the recruiting has been anything but average by either Marrone or Shafer. I think it can get better with Shafer but he needs to provit it on the field. Marrone was proving that he was building a winner and by the end of the 4th year, you could see the tide on the recruiting front slowly beginning to turn and then it went away.

 

[rosconey]

just give me a danm 21st century offense- its not asking alot- everyone in the nation not named syracuse has one

 

[Rocco]

A good coach who is a good recruiter doesn't sell the past. They sell the future, a vision, the staff and what a recruit can do to be part of a turn around. We could have a great class this year. We went 3-9 last year. I'm sure HCSS is selling the future.

There is no question that's what Shafer is doing and I hope that it works out wonderfully.

Shafer can at least say he was part of the initial rebuilding project during Marrone's tenure and that he shows kids how they will continue to build off of that.

Marrone had a slightly harder pitch to sell.

 

[Millhouse]

Once again, it's recruiting the right kids for his system. Zach Allen's skill set is not really idea for TCU's current system. Had he come here who knows? And as for the backs, didn't Jerome Smith run for 1200 yards in Marrone's last season here? I'm pretty confident PTG, McFarlene, et. Could have done the same.

why is allen's skill set not ideal for TCU's system but ideal for marrone's?

what are Allen's skills that marrone valued and TCU doesn't

 

[OttoMets]

2012 was much better than 2013. We were legitimately good in 2012. We played one of our toughest OOC schedules ever, had a great road win at Missouri and played tough against USC(and got robbed against Northwestern). Hammered WVU in the bowl game. We were in every game that year. No blowouts.

2013 was good to get to another bowl and win it, but we got absolutely pounded several times. We can excuse FSU and Clemson...but not Georgia Tech. They wouldn't have stood out on the 2012 schedule. Just a pathetic showing that day.

And Pittsburgh. And Penn State. And Northwestern.

The celebration of 2013 truly confuses me. That was a frustrating season and a real step back.

 

[TheCusian]

And Pittsburgh. And Penn State. And Northwestern. The celebration of 2013 truly confuses me. That was a frustrating season and a real step back.

The step back occurred when Nassib graduated with no great options behind him. We would have had a similar record WITH Marrone and no QB. Also: 2012 was frustrating too. Gave away a couple of games. Should have been a truly great season.

I'm rooting like crazy for Hunt, but it is what it is.

 

[OttoMets]

The step back occurred when Nassib graduated with no great options behind him. We would have had a similar record WITH Marrone and no QB. Also: 2012 was frustrating too. Gave away a couple of games. Should have been a truly great season.

I'm rooting like crazy for Hunt, but it is what it is.

There's no winning an argument of "what-if," but I bet Marrone would've coached a Charlie Loeb team to 8-5 or better in 2013. (Though you're correct that he was no great shakes, either.)

Yes, we handed away Northwestern, Minnesota, and Rutgers in 2012. That was frustrating. But my eyes told me that that was a far superior team than the one that followed it. The difference wasn't just one player; a number of factors were involved, with a totally inept offensive coordinator at the top of the list.

 

[anomander]

I agree and Marrone's teams made mistakes but there were games that were just so well orchestrated WVU ( 3 x), first game was ugly but what a huge win that was. Rutgers his first year, Louisville in the dome, the run his last 5 games his last year. Shafer doesn't have one of those games in 2 years. Good bowl win, I guess but that is it.

Shafer has a lot of work to do. He needs to figure out the offense and until Washington verballed here, I don't think the recruiting has been anything but average by either Marrone or Shafer. I think it can get better with Shafer but he needs to provit it on the field. Marrone was proving that he was building a winner and by the end of the 4th year, you could see the tide on the recruiting front slowly beginning to turn and then it went away.

Completely agree with everything here.

My biggest concern with Shafer is not only does he have that signature win that Marrone was able to get, but we've got absolutely steamrolled in a bunch of big games. I was always confident Marrone gameplan would at least make it a game. I don't have that confidence yet with Shafer. That's why I can't get as excited with his recruiting, because no matter how talented the players you are bringing in, they are worthless if you can't put them into a position to succeed. Hopefully some of that were growing pains, and we worked through them the past 2 years?

 

[OrangePA]

I can't help but chime in with this... I know the depths of where he was picking up from, but these are Marrone's FBS win totals... 3, 6, 4, 7.

With all the "Marrone *won* with..." posts it's fair to note that he actually was under .500 both in conference and against FBS opponents (20-25).

He was a good coach but he wasn't Urban Meyer or something.

I don't think you included the two bowl wins?

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Doug Marrone was or is Urban Meyer.

But, he was a very good coach on the Hill and did a great job restoring the program to respectability. With additional time and more money I have no doubt he would have continued the growth of the program.

I am still disappointed that he chose to leave.

 

[CIL]

why is allen's skill set not ideal for TCU's system but ideal for marrone's?

what are Allen's skills that marrone valued and TCU doesn't

One think Allen really lacked was a big arm. If you recall, the big knock on Allen was his mediocre arm strength coming out of HS. However, he was a very accurate thrower of the football.

Marrone's offensive philosophy his last year here can be somewhat characterized as a hurried up version of the west coast offense run out of the gun. The WCO lives on the ability of the short to intermediate passing game and the QB to make quick decisions and ability to get rid of the ball. It has major emphasis on QB accuracy above all else.

I've only watched a handful of TCU football since the offense changed, but it appears it is an air raid offense based upon the vertical game, especially the quarterback's ability to attack the vertical seams of a zone defense, with a little read option mixed in.

I'm not sure that really is up Allen's alley to be honest. He was recruited for TCU's prior offensive set, not this one. Too bad. Success at this level is part luck too.

 

[TheCusian]

There's no winning an argument of "what-if," but I bet Marrone would've coached a Charlie Loeb team to 8-5 or better in 2013. (Though you're correct that he was no great shakes, either.) Yes, we handed away Northwestern, Minnesota, and Rutgers in 2012. That was frustrating. But my eyes told me that that was a far superior team than the one that followed it. The difference wasn't just one player; a number of factors were involved, with a totally inept offensive coordinator at the top of the list.

I agree that the 2012 team was better than the 2013 team. My point is that the Marrone/Nassib team underperformed their O/D ranking. The 2013 team overachieved given the gaping hole at QB and WR, new league, etc.

 

[TheCusian]

Completely agree with everything here. My biggest concern with Shafer is not only does he have that signature win that Marrone was able to get, but we've got absolutely steamrolled in a bunch of big games. I was always confident Marrone gameplan would at least make it a game. I don't have that confidence yet with Shafer. That's why I can't get as excited with his recruiting, because no matter how talented the players you are bringing in, they are worthless if you can't put them into a position to succeed. Hopefully some of that were growing pains, and we worked through them the past 2 years?

His first year was odd. We really dominated peer schools defensively and bludgeoned them with a run game. And then got destroyed by elite offensive teams like FSU, Clemson (and sorta elite) Gtech.

Last year, I thought we played good teams closer on the whole - until the last two games (where I feel like the offensive ineptitude and young QB's really killed us).

 

[TheCusian]

Completely agree with everything here. My biggest concern with Shafer is not only does he have that signature win that Marrone was able to get, but we've got absolutely steamrolled in a bunch of big games. I was always confident Marrone gameplan would at least make it a game. I don't have that confidence yet with Shafer. That's why I can't get as excited with his recruiting, because no matter how talented the players you are bringing in, they are worthless if you can't put them into a position to succeed. Hopefully some of that were growing pains, and we worked through them the past 2 years?

Also - Marrone lost his fair share of head scratchers - and close games with FBS teams. People remember the big wins, sure.

 

[Millhouse]

One think Allen really lacked was a big arm. If you recall, the big knock on Allen was his mediocre arm strength coming out of HS. However, he was a very accurate thrower of the football.

Marrone's offensive philosophy his last year here can be somewhat characterized as a hurried up version of the west coast offense run out of the gun. The WCO lives on the ability of the short to intermediate passing game and the QB to make quick decisions and ability to get rid of the ball. It has major emphasis on QB accuracy above all else.

I've only watched a handful of TCU football since the offense changed, but it appears it is an air raid offense based upon the vertical game, especially the quarterback's ability to attack the vertical seams of a zone defense, with a little read option mixed in.

I'm not sure that really is up Allen's alley to be honest. He was recruited for TCU's prior offensive set, not this one. Too bad. Success at this level is part luck too.

nassib's ypa in 2012 was higher than boykin's

plenty of air raid teams get by without guys with big arms.

verticals doesn't necessarily mean long throws, lots of quick 15 yard throws at holes in the zone defense

i don't think the skillsets are that different.

 

[baggerbob]

imo the biggest falsity on this board is that Marrone was this horrible recruiter, while Shafer is the 2nd coming of Urban Meyer. All things equal, i'm not sure we would see a huge difference. As you said Marrone had a very strong class going before he left, and the class before that was solid. Marrone had a lot going against him. The state of the program was in shambles, we had bottom of the barrel facilities, and Big East affiliation. Compare that to what Shafer has right now with the ACC affiliation, taking over after 2 bowl wins in 3 years, and totally renovated facilities. Even with all that we still had recruiting classes towards the bottom of the conference. Our recruiting has improved, but I would have liked to see what Shafer would have done with what Marrone inherited, and vice versa. I should also say this isn't a knock on Shafer, but more in defense of Marrone. I think just because he didn't like recruiting he gets knocked for it. Not liking it, and not knowing what he was doing are 2 different things. Plus most importantly, as you said, Marrone knew how to recruit for his system. I really think we would be a top 25 program right now if Marrone were still here.

Your last statement is my only problem with Doug, he came here saying it was his dream job, and walked out before he finished the job. In essence he quit before the job was done, and that is not a good example to set for future employment.

 

[GoSU96]

why is allen's skill set not ideal for TCU's system but ideal for marrone's?

what are Allen's skills that marrone valued and TCU doesn't

Trevor Boykin and two better recruits behind him.

Marrone had a more pro orientation to his no huddle, iso/power run game out, play action, complex patterns and reads. The option play they developed had more of a pro concept than a zone read based play.

The zone read component was minimal, used in spots to get a first down or two or set up second and five. My guess is they thought Allen would fit that well with a little more quickness than Nassib had.

Boykin had the most rushing attempts for TCU, 2nd most rushing yards. A very college offense.

 

[jgeorge322]

lets see how shafer can do with a competent offensive coordinator.

 

[OrangePA]

I agree that the 2012 team was better than the 2013 team. My point is that the Marrone/Nassib team underperformed their O/D ranking. The 2013 team overachieved given the gaping hole at QB and WR, new league, etc.

The 2012 team won two games it probably should not have won - at USF and at Missouri.

The record that year was a fair gauge of where the team was in terms of talent and competitiveness.

 

[Millhouse]

Trevor Boykin and two better recruits behind him.

Marrone had a more pro orientation to his no huddle, iso/power run game out, play action, complex patterns and reads. The option play they developed had more of a pro concept than a zone read based play.

The zone read component was minimal, used in spots to get a first down or two or set up second and five. My guess is they thought Allen would fit that well with a little more quickness than Nassib had.

Boykin had the most rushing attempts for TCU, 2nd most rushing yards. A very college offense.

if you have a guy like boykin, go ahead and use him running. but i wouldn't assume that's their system going forward based on their oc's history. i don't think allen should suffer in an offense with less complicated patterns and reads. a million air raid offenses thrive with smart slow guys with so-so arms. if he was just beaten out by better players, ok, but i still think that casts a little doubt. i buy the TCU is just that loaded argument more than the skillset one

 

[CIL]

nassib's ypa in 2012 was higher than boykin's

plenty of air raid teams get by without guys with big arms.

verticals doesn't necessarily mean long throws, lots of quick 15 yard throws at holes in the zone defense

i don't think the skillsets are that different.

Not all air raid offenses are created equal Milly. Many run different route schemes, etc. WVU's is very different from A&M's.

The YPA is misleading as well. A good chunk of Nassib's deep throws came off of play action against 3 deep coverage. Very rarely was Ryan asked to fire one 20 yards between a linebacker and safety.

 

[CIL]

if you have a guy like boykin, go ahead and use him running. but i wouldn't assume that's their system going forward based on their oc's history. i don't think allen should suffer in an offense with less complicated patterns and reads. a million air raid offenses thrive with smart slow guys with so-so arms. if he was just beaten out by better players, ok, but i still think that casts a little doubt. i buy the TCU is just that loaded argument more than the skillset one

There certainly may be better players at TCU, I never said as much. But it is also an offense that is not made for his strengths, period.

MCW was great for our hoops team because he was great at the top of the zone and in the pick and roll game. We weren't asking him to be a spot shooter.

 

[GoSU96]

The 2012 team won two games it probably should not have won - at USF and at Missouri.

The record that year was a fair gauge of where the team was in terms of talent and competitiveness.

Based on their statistical performance over the year they really should have had 9 or 10 wins. I also think they were playing with a high level of execution with a small margin of error based on talent. When they didn't have their full compliment they had issues.

That and gift points against NWestern, Rutgers, and Cinci that directly led to losses. Inability to score on the doorstep was the factor against Minny.

They should have won at least two if not all four of those games.

By the end of the year that team was easily one of the twenty best in the country.

 

[OrangePA]

The step back occurred when Nassib graduated with no great options behind him. We would have had a similar record WITH Marrone and no QB. Also: 2012 was frustrating too. Gave away a couple of games. Should have been a truly great season.

I'm rooting like crazy for Hunt, but it is what it is.

With a simplified offense, a commitment to execution - rather than simply an insistence on running as many plays as possible - and with nearly a full season to see the game as a coach sees the game, hopefully TH will show us something this fall.