Marrone To The Jags...

[Crusty]

This is beyond ridiculous now. So, Syracuse should have hired Holtz or Edsall and been better off if they left to go take a college job at Maryland or Illinois or wherever because they didn't have NFL aspirations?

I just can't...

Who said that?

 

[Toga]

My point is that Marrone left a job unfinished at SU and now again at Buffalo. He did well financially with his meager record - good for him. Would anyone really want him now knowing what a thin skinned flat leaver he is? Apparently not as evidenced by his recent job search. The staff that went with him are all big boys and they pushed their chips into the middle of the table and most lost this hand. I think he is a good coach with an exceptional eye for talent, but I would'nt want him in my lifeboat. Would he push me overboard when I slept? Probably not, but he would eat all the food and drink all the water. Still dead in the end.

You'd be taking up cap space and would be invited to leave the boat.

 

[Statesman1]

If U CNN was such a better up and coming program with facilities and admin support how come we are in the ACC and they are not?

Eyeballs/BC already in the market- why is this difficult to understand?

 

[Scooch]

Here's something I was thinking of the other day...

Let's say that we accept that Marrone was a "great" coach because he took over the worst program in major college football, in the four years prior to his arrival, and got SU to 7 regular season wins, a competent offense, and a bowl win in year 4.

Well, then how do we characterize a head coach who took over a program that had gone 36-10-3 in the four years befor he took the reigns, but by year four won 7 regular season games and had an offense so bad that the team wasn't invited to play in a bowl?

I see that guy get called "great" a lot too.

It's odd that for a program that hasn't been in the top 10 for 22 years and counting we've had so many "great" coaches.

 

[GoSU96]

Brilliant. UCONN was a D-2 team during Edsall's first four years. Edsall built the UCONN program from D2 to D1. They played in the Yankee conference before then.

Why don't you try his first four years in D1? He was 26-22 while moving up a division rank. His last four years he was 33-19 with and 8-win season and a 9-win season - also went to a bowl every year, including a BCS bowl. His worst four year stretch was 26-23.

Of Marrone's 25 wins, 10 - a full 40% - were against such stalwarts as Maine twice, Akron twice, Colgate, Temple, Tulane, Toldeo, Stony Brook, and Rhode Island. Non-conference victories against notable opponents were Northwestern, Kansas State, and Missouri. We managed only 11 conference victories during his tenure - an average of less than three per year. Five of those conference victories came in one year (2012).

My point is simple. It is not to say Marrone was a bad coach - he was not he was a good coach. but his achievements are quite overrated. There are many, many coaches - I used Edsall as an example - that could have done the same or better job.

His first your years in D-1 they went 20-26. Their first four years in the Big East after that they went 26-22. It took until his 9th season to finish above .500 at 54-53.

5o% of Edsalls wins were against non P5, another 36% against P5 with non winning records, 10 of his 70, 14%, wins were against p5 with winning records, and of those wins all but one were in his last four years.

His first four years in the BE, starting his 6th year as a HC, Edsall went 11-16 in conference.

Marrone had 40% of his wins against Non P5, 28% against P5 with losing records, and 8 of 25, 32%, wins against P5 with winning records.

Marrone never lost a game to non P5 team, and only one game, 9-10 to Lville, to a team that finished with 4 wins or less. Edsall manged to did both of those, losing to Temple and a 4-8 Rutgers team, in his last year at Uconn.

Of Marrone's 25 losses, 22 came to teams that went to Bowl games.

Your whole demonstrably better thing is a crock of . I'm sure Edsall could have won eight or nine games here, it just would have probably taken him four or five seasons to do it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The only prima facie case established is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

False premises, facts that don't support your argument at all, and utterly wrong conclusion.

:rolling:

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Serious question for Crusty and the like- what would it have taken to satisfy you to consider Marrone a good coach given the state of the program when he took it over?

I considered Marrone a good coach his final season here, because we had an offense that was competitive with the rest of college football.

From what I know of Marrone the man, I don't like him. I also think he deserves every bit of ripping he gets from myself and others after he sold so hard that this was his dream job, that he had a plan, and how he needed so much commitment from other people. The Marrone Fan Club is also real, and open to criticism for how comical their enthusiasm for all things Marrone is.

 

[xc84]

Brilliant. UCONN was a D-2 team during Edsall's first four years. Edsall built the UCONN program from D2 to D1. They played in the Yankee conference before then.

Why don't you try his first four years in D1? He was 26-22 while moving up a division rank. His last four years he was 33-19 with and 8-win season and a 9-win season - also went to a bowl every year, including a BCS bowl. His worst four year stretch was 26-23.

Of Marrone's 25 wins, 10 - a full 40% - were against such stalwarts as Maine twice, Akron twice, Colgate, Temple, Tulane, Toldeo, Stony Brook, and Rhode Island. Non-conference victories against notable opponents were Northwestern, Kansas State, and Missouri. We managed only 11 conference victories during his tenure - an average of less than three per year. Five of those conference victories came in one year (2012).

My point is simple. It is not to say Marrone was a bad coach - he was not he was a good coach. but his achievements are quite overrated. There are many, many coaches - I used Edsall as an example - that could have done the same or better job.

It really doesn't matter that they were "D-2" and you can't compare someone's first 4 years with another's second 4. It's just dishonest. His worst four years he was not 26-23.... he only won 15 games his first 4 years at a lower tier playing lower tier teams. 15 games in four years is GRobesque. In contrast, Marrone won 25 and had 2 8-win seasons in his first four years in which he went to and won bowl games in each. All this after he inherited a team that won 2.5 games per year in the prior 4 years. I agree Edsall may have done an equal job but then again, he had more HC coaching experience at the point Marrone was hired.

 

[Statesman1]

I considered Marrone a good coach his final season here, because we had an offense that was competitive with the rest of college football.

From what I know of Marrone the man, I don't like him. I also think he deserves every bit of ripping he gets from myself and others after he sold so hard that this was his dream job, that he had a plan, and how he needed so much commitment from other people. The Marrone Fan Club is also real, and open to criticism for how comical their enthusiasm for all things Marrone is.

So the light went on only in year 4 because the offense was decent?-- That's an interesting take. I have to say I find it sort of sad and somewhat pathetic that so many have hurt feelings because of the "dream job" nonsense. Honestly why does anyone care about Marrone "the man" outside of his competence as coach? He got the important stuff right- graduating players, getting rid of the bad apples, ran a clean program by the book, and people here are upset because he isn't personable enough for their liking- well Boo Hoo. If you're looking for a friend maybe you should buy a dog,or at the very least look outside the coaching staff. I just want a competent coaching staff that wins a few games and runs a respectable program. We had that with Marrone- Is that too much to ask?

 

[Crusty]

It really doesn't matter that they were "D-2" and you can't compare someone's first 4 years with another's second 4. It's just dishonest. His worst four years he was not 26-23... he only won 15 games his first 4 years at a lower tier playing lower tier teams. 15 games in four years is GRobesque. In contrast, Marrone won 25 and had 2 8-win seasons in his first four years in which he went to and won bowl games in each. All this after he inherited a team that won 2.5 games per year in the prior 4 years. I agree Edsall may have done an equal job but then again, he had more HC coaching experience at the point Marrone was hired.

You insist on comparing their first four years as HC as if that is the sole criteria of their records. I used Edsall.s D1 record because that is the only record Marrone had. I tried to do like vs like. If Marrone stayed at one place long enough to establish a record we could do a better analysis but his four years of D1 is all we have to compare. He did have the advantage of working under one of the best NFL offensive minds in the country and I think that at the very least offsets Edsall's D-2 HC expereince. So, I think they are comparable.

I think it is clear that many coaches including Edsall could have done at least as good a job as Marrone did.

 

[Statesman1]

You insist on comparing their first four years as HC as if that is the sole criteria of their records. I used Edsall.s D1 record because that is the only record Marrone had. I tried to do like vs like. If Marrone stayed at one place long enough to establish a record we could do a better analysis but his four years of D1 is all we have to compare. He did have the advantage of working under one of the best NFL offensive minds in the country and I think that at the very least offsets Edsall's D-2 HC expereince. So, I think they are comparable.

I think it is clear that many coaches including Edsall could have done at least as good a job as Marrone did.

Such a straw man argument- it is obviously impossible to disprove the theory that many could have done at least as good a job since we can only have one coaching staff at a time. If good coaches are so easy to find why can't our AD swerve into one by accident at least?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So the light went on only in year 4 because the offense was decent?-- That's an interesting take. I have to say I find it sort of sad and somewhat pathetic that so many have hurt feelings because of the "dream job" nonsense. Honestly why does anyone care about Marrone "the man" outside of his competence as coach? He got the important stuff right- graduating players, getting rid of the bad apples, ran a clean program by the book, and people here are upset because he isn't personable enough for their liking- well Boo Hoo. If you're looking for a friend maybe you should buy a dog,or at the very least look outside the coaching staff. I just want a competent coaching staff that wins a few games and runs a respectable program. We had that with Marrone- Is that too much to ask?

Couple of things -

1. Yes, the light did go on for Marrone and he became a better coach when it did. I contend that his preference for low margin for error, field position prioritized games handicapped our offense. He loved white knuckling games. His game plans often consisted of the clause "keep it close and have a chance in the fourth." Then he saw the light, got it in his head that he needed more points, and became a good coach.

2. You keep wanting to make the "he left us" in to an emotional thing. For me at least it's not. He fulfilled his contract. Business wise, it's all good. What went unfulfilled was all of the extra stuff he sold to the fans. It was bad form.

3. I don't have any problem giving Marrone credit for the good things he did. I am not willing to inflate those accomplishments or with old criticism from him. And yeah, part of the fun of criticizing him is seeing how utterly incapable the Marrone Fan Club is at handling it.

 

[Crusty]

His first your years in D-1 they went 20-26. Their first four years in the Big East after that they went 26-22. It took until his 9th season to finish above .500 at 54-53.

5o% of Edsalls wins were against non P5, another 36% against P5 with non winning records, 10 of his 70, 14%, wins were against p5 with winning records, and of those wins all but one were in his last four years.

His first four years in the BE, starting his 6th year as a HC, Edsall went 11-16 in conference.

Marrone had 40% of his wins against Non P5, 28% against P5 with losing records, and 8 of 25, 32%, wins against P5 with winning records.

Marrone never lost a game to non P5 team, and only one game, 9-10 to Lville, to a team that finished with 4 wins or less. Edsall manged to did both of those, losing to Temple and a 4-8 Rutgers team, in his last year at Uconn.

Of Marrone's 25 losses, 22 came to teams that went to Bowl games.

Your whole demonstrably better thing is a crock of . I'm sure Edsall could have won eight or nine games here, it just would have probably taken him four or five seasons to do it.

The strength of wins and losses are at least comparable and Edsall had a better conference, overall and head-to-head record. It really is that simple.

 

[rrlbees]

So the light went on only in year 4 because the offense was decent?-- That's an interesting take. I have to say I find it sort of sad and somewhat pathetic that so many have hurt feelings because of the "dream job" nonsense. Honestly why does anyone care about Marrone "the man" outside of his competence as coach? He got the important stuff right- graduating players, getting rid of the bad apples, ran a clean program by the book, and people here are upset because he isn't personable enough for their liking- well Boo Hoo. If you're looking for a friend maybe you should buy a dog,or at the very least look outside the coaching staff. I just want a competent coaching staff that wins a few games and runs a respectable program. We had that with Marrone- Is that too much to ask?

I always love it when people rip on the players. Just who were these "bad apples"? You mean some of his own recruits?

 

[GoSU96]

The strength of wins and losses are at least comparable and Edsall had a better conference, overall and head-to-head record. It really is that simple.
View attachment 34699

What game did Marrone lose to a non major conference opponent?

Edsall finished 7 games over .5oo from his time at UConn and didn't get to .500 until mid way through his 9th season as a D-1 coach.

He didn't have a better record in his first four years as a D-1 HC, he was 26 and 22 his first four years in the BE, years five through eight as a D-1 HC. His first four years in the BE he was 11 -16 in the BE his first four years.

I wonder if the head to head record has anything to do with a guy in his first two years of a horrible program playing a guy in his 1oth and 11th.

He was 46 and 48 after eight years. Yep, demonstrably better than a guy who got to .500 in four years playing tougher schedules with more quality wins and less bad losses.

It really is simple.

 

[Crusty]

What game did Marrone lose to a non major conference opponent?

Edsall finished 7 games over .5oo from his time at UConn and didn't get to .500 until mid way through his 9th season as a D-1 coach.

He didn't have a better record in his first four years as a D-1 HC, he was 26 and 22 his first four years in the BE, years five through eight as a D-1 HC. His first four years in the BE he was 11 -16 in the BE his first four years.

I wonder if the head to head record has anything to do with a guy in his first two years of a horrible program playing a guy in his 1oth and 11th.

He was 46 and 48 after eight years. Yep, demonstrably better than a guy who got to .500 in four years playing tougher schedules with more quality wins and less bad losses.

It really is simple.

Looks pretty convoluted to me but have a nice day.

 

[GoSU96]

Looks pretty convoluted to me but have a nice day.

What's convoluted?

You mean comparing performance at the same points in convoluted, is it really that difficult for you to follow?

Sorry you're having trouble dealing with the fact that your demonstrably false assertion isn't worth a damn.

 

[Crusty]

What's convoluted?

You mean comparing performance at the same points in convoluted, is it really that difficult for you to follow?

Sorry you're having trouble dealing with the fact that your demonstrably false assertion isn't worth a damn.

The only thing that works for you is to compare the first four years as a head coach. If you think that suffices then good for you. Have a nice day.

 

[Statesman1]

I always love it when people rip on the players. Just who were these "bad apples"? You mean some of his own recruits?

I mean like Malcom Cater, Brice Hawkes, Johnny Miller, Andrew Lewis, Averin Collier? Those bad apples-

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I mean like Malcom Cater, Brice Hawkes, Johnny Miller, Andrew Lewis, Averin Collier? Those bad apples-

Uh...

 

[MadNY3]

What game did Marrone lose to a non major conference opponent?

Edsall finished 7 games over .5oo from his time at UConn and didn't get to .500 until mid way through his 9th season as a D-1 coach.

He didn't have a better record in his first four years as a D-1 HC, he was 26 and 22 his first four years in the BE, years five through eight as a D-1 HC. His first four years in the BE he was 11 -16 in the BE his first four years.

I wonder if the head to head record has anything to do with a guy in his first two years of a horrible program playing a guy in his 1oth and 11th.

He was 46 and 48 after eight years. Yep, demonstrably better than a guy who got to .500 in four years playing tougher schedules with more quality wins and less bad losses.

It really is simple.

Marrone is a really good coach.

But he's 0-1 when he arrogantly quits one of only 32 jobs on the planet to be the guy behind the guy behind the guy for a team that has won nine games since 2011.

So he was so good, every team with a HC opening passed on him. And he didn't land a coordinator position.

I hope one day he becomes somewhat as good of manager of human beings than aren't an X or an O, be it members of the press, former football players of a program, owners, etc. It would be a shame for one's arrogance and hubris to undermine what has been an up-and-coming career...so hopefully, he'll learn from this when he gets another shot when it comes.

 

[GoSU96]

Marrone is a really good coach.

But he's 0-1 when he arrogantly quits one of only 32 jobs on the planet to be the guy behind the guy behind the guy for a team that has won nine games since 2011.

So he was so good, every team with a HC opening passed on him. And he didn't land a coordinator position.

I hope one day he becomes somewhat as good of manager of human beings than aren't an X or an O, be it members of the press, former football players of a program, owners, etc. It would be a shame for one's arrogance and hubris to undermine what has been an up-and-coming career...so hopefully, he'll learn from this when he gets another shot when it comes.

That's all nice, but that has nothing to do with evaluating the job he did here, which is what I was responding to.

 

[KaiserUEO]

That's all nice, but that has nothing to do with evaluating the job he did here, which is what I was responding to.

well thats easy...he gets a D or an incomplete.

depending on how you grade.

he took grobbycakes recruits to a bowl in year 2 then barely snuck into a 2nd one in year 4...then quit.

D or incomplete...your call...

 

[chakka3421]

Holy crap - you boys still at it? I put this to bed long time ago...you stubborn boys won't be changing your perception about Marrone anytime soon so why bother.

Anyway, I hope he does well at the Jags as I'm not one to normally wish ill will on anyone. Marrones a big boy - if he felt it best to leave SU and now the Bills and ends up as an NFL OL coach from now on - I say so what.

 

[GoSU96]

well thats easy...he gets a D or an incomplete.

depending on how you grade.

he took grobbycakes recruits to a bowl in year 2 then barely snuck into a 2nd one in year 4...then quit.

D or incomplete...your call...

That is just flat out stupid.

Marrone inherited a team that had gone 10-37. It was a program with complete end to end incompetence on offense and defense. There isn't one thing they did at even a mediocre level. In Robinson's last two years the defense was every bit as awful as the offense had been for four. That's why I say Marrone took over the worst program in D-1. Add to that a recruiting class that had three kids, one of which was Andy Phillips, that were D-1 level prospects.


Historical incompetence. Rankings in major statistical categories 2005 - 2008, out of 120 teams.

Offense
Pts scored - 4 of 4 years under 102nd (115, 102, 118, 108),
total yds, 4 of 4 under 11oth (117th, 110th,115th, 115th),
yards per play, 4 of 4 under 100th (117th, 113th, 111th, 100th),
first downs 4 of 4 under 106th, (119th, 106th, 117th, 119th),
3rd down conversion, 3 of 4 under 115th (117th, 78th, 117th, 115th),
passing yds, 3 of 4 years under 104th (107th, 104th, 55th, 114th),
completion % 4 of 4 years under 104th (117th, 104th, 109th, 116th),
rushing yds 3 of 4 under 97th (107th, 97, 119th, 55th),
yds per carry 3 of 4 under 100th (105th, 100th, 120th, 39th),
sacks allowed, 4 of 4 years under 98th (109th, 116th, 118th, 98th),
tackles for a loss allowed, 4 of 4 under 90th (116th, 109th, 98th, 90th)

Defense,

Pts allowed, (68th, 72nd, 105th, 102nd)
total yds, (57th, 107th, 112th, 102nd)
ypp, (63rd, 100th, 108th, 94th)
1st Downs, (24th, 104th, 112th, 106th)
3rd down con, (16th, 104th, 109th, 117th)
passing yds, (22nd, 76th, 103rd, 84th)
completion % allowed, (27th, 113th, 117th, 97th)
rushing yds, (98th, 110th, 110th, 102nd),
ypc, (81st, 107th, 99th, 103rd)
sacks, (55th, 19th, 118th, 100th)
tackles for a loss (81st, 69th, 95th, 104th)

The 2007 team might have the worst combined statistical performance ever for a BCS team

By the end of 2012 Marrone had built to the program to the point where it was

55th in scoring, 17th in total yds, 40th in rushing, 29th in passing, 9th in 3rd down conversion, 22nd in sacks allowed on offense.

46th in scoring, 48th in total defense, 43rd in rushing, 62 in pass, 39th on 3rd down, 59th in sacks, and that was after having the 7th ranked defense in 2010 which was half Marrone recruits.

There have been five comparable turnaround jobs recently.

Stanford - was 14-31 prior to Harbaugh, and that is skewed because it appears that Walt Harris had a nervous breakdown based on the team performance his last year. They were 4-7, 4-7, 5-6, and then collapsed to 1-11.

Harbaugh then went 4-8, 5-7, 8-5, 12-1. Four year record of 29-21. He also was coming off of being HC at SD St. and had Andrew Luck at QB his last two years.
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Baylor - was 15-32 the four years before Briles, 3-9, 5-6, 4-8, 3-9. Not a good team but not nearly as historically awful statistically as SU during that time.

Briles first four years, 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, 10-3. Four year record of 25-25, Briles came over from Houston where he was HC and brought Robert Griffin III from his Houston class.
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Washington, - before Sarkisian, went 2-9, 5-7, 4-9, 0-12, 11-37. Other than that last year they were competitive.

Sarkisian went 5-7, 7-6, 7-6, 7-6, for a 26-25 total and had the benefit of having Locker his first two years.
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Duke - was a Syracuse level complete disaster prior to Cutcliffe, 4-42. Cutcliffe went 43-29 at Ole Miss over six full seasons with only one losing season.

He went 4-8, 5-7, 3-9, 3-9 his first four years, 6-7 (with a bowl game) his fifth year. 7 years in he still has a losing record.
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Marrone was the only guy coming from the NFL, three of the other guys already had success and experience as D-1 HC's. Other than Duke he was left with a program in much, much, worse condition than the rest of the turnarounds.

He obviously got SU turned around faster than Cutcliff did with Duke. The others he had very comparable four year performance, and the other three had the benefit of guys that were the #1, #2, and #8 picks to work with at QB.

He did an excellent job doing what he was hired to do, which was rebuild the program, in the time he was here.

But Marrone gets a D according to you. Like I said, flat out stupid.