McDonald is the best hope for Syracuse football

[OttoMets]

It occurs to me I never commented on the asterisk I put in my post. Here's the thought:

*So on those QB and WR limitations... why wasn't this a bigger concern of the previous staff? I mean, they showed ZERO urgency bringing in wide receivers. I remember when Cornelius was supposedly the only receiver we were going to bring in during his class - we brought in Parker Lewis Can't Lose too, but still.

I mean, it's not like Shafer wasn't looking across the field at the O depth chart and standing in awe of the underclassmen WR talent. I'm irritated to think that the program was caught by surprise. I get it, they wanted to build around the run and stuff, which is fine and dandy but for all of the numbers at the WR position, that cupboard is pretty bare. Same story with the QBs. I honestly think McDonald got here, looked at what we was going to work with, and felt like he was punched in the stomach.

To be fair, Flemming and Foster were supposed to be, what, the top two (or two of the top three) receivers on this team? Everyone was really high on Foster after spring 2012. Hale's allegedly good, Ben Lewis has good hands. Marrone brought in Funderburke. And Kobena showed flashes in his first two years (before looking like a complete JV guy this year).

 

[PhatOrange]

It occurs to me I never commented on the asterisk I put in my post. Here's the thought:

*So on those QB and WR limitations... why wasn't this a bigger concern of the previous staff? I mean, they showed ZERO urgency bringing in wide receivers. I remember when Cornelius was supposedly the only receiver we were going to bring in during his class - we brought in Parker Lewis Can't Lose too, but still.

I mean, it's not like Shafer wasn't looking across the field at the O depth chart and standing in awe of the underclassmen WR talent. I'm irritated to think that the program was caught by surprise. I get it, they wanted to build around the run and stuff, which is fine and dandy but for all of the numbers at the WR position, that cupboard is pretty bare. Same story with the QBs. I honestly think McDonald got here, looked at what we was going to work with, and felt like he was punched in the stomach.

imo, different systems. Marrone/Hackett was short ball control passing game which fits the current groups skill set.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

To be fair, Flemming and Foster were supposed to be, what, the top two (or two of the top three) receivers on this team? Everyone was really high on Foster after spring 2012. Hale's allegedly good, Ben Lewis has good hands. Marrone brought in Funderburke. And Kobena showed flashes in his first two years (before looking like a complete JV guy this year).

I'm not sure that acknowledgement really helps the case. I mean, neither one of them had ever recorded a catch in their careers.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

imo, different systems. Marrone/Hackett was short ball control passing game which fits the current groups skill set.

I would argue that for the most part there isn't a system that fits the current groups skill set.

 

[jgeorge322]

It occurs to me I never commented on the asterisk I put in my post. Here's the thought:

*So on those QB and WR limitations... why wasn't this a bigger concern of the previous staff? I mean, they showed ZERO urgency bringing in wide receivers. I remember when Cornelius was supposedly the only receiver we were going to bring in during his class - we brought in Parker Lewis Can't Lose too, but still.

I mean, it's not like Shafer wasn't looking across the field at the O depth chart and standing in awe of the underclassmen WR talent. I'm irritated to think that the program was caught by surprise. I get it, they wanted to build around the run and stuff, which is fine and dandy but for all of the numbers at the WR position, that cupboard is pretty bare. Same story with the QBs. I honestly think McDonald got here, looked at what we was going to work with, and felt like he was punched in the stomach.

this is a bit of a chicken or the egg argument. is it the OC or the QB and the WR? it really is all speculation but i blame the OC and believe our offense would be producing much better had the prior staff been kept in place. were seniors sales and lemon better than we have now? without a doubt, but they weren't exactly calvin johnson let alone mike williams. last year, our coaches put our players in a position to succeed. mcdonald hasn't done that.

last year was the first year in forever where we finally got the defenses to back off. now were back to 9 guys in the box. this puts too much pressue on the oline, rbs and qb. teams do to us exactly what we do to bad offenses we play. they pressure the heck out of the line of scrimmage and the ball. some say, "oh, we have a great defense." we certainly have talent there but it is more strategy at play then superior talent. we know most other teams don't have the playmakers to make us back off. however, when the team does, ala clemson and fsu, we get blown out.

mcdonald needs to find an offense that keeps the defense honest. he feels bubble screens does this by getting the ball in space away from the defenders. it is easier to win a 3 v 3 battle then a 8 v 8, etc. that actually is not a terrible strategy, but it doesn't work great when it is your only option and the DBs can crowd the line of scrimmage.

i don't want mcdonald fired. i agree he can improve. but he is the main reason this offense is struggling. not hunt. not the wrs. and not the o-line.

 

[Orangello]

I'm not buying the "we only have one way to go and that's up" with Kool Kid.

To the contrary, we could have more of the same next year or actually regress even further. Everyone seems to want to give this guy a free pass on the belief that miraculously, the completely unproven recruits we have coming in next year (as well as the two QB's who came in last year) will click and all will be well. I'm not buying it. The emphasis here is on the unproven. True freshman rarely come in and light it up in year 1. Ditto for a new QB. The things that are the most concerning to me are the controllables which are not being addressed. Constant penalties, confusion on substituitions and personnel, inability to use the clock correctly. These are coaching failures by and large, not personnel related.

We've got a guy who is learning on the job, appears to be slightly ADD with his play calling and will unlikely be here very long anyway. Where does that leave us long term ? We are a program that has struggled with mediocrity for the better part of a decade plus. We are an afterthought on the national scene.

This year feels like a whole lot of backwards instead of forward.

 

[Millhouse]

I'm not sure that acknowledgement really helps the case. I mean, neither one of them had ever recorded a catch in their careers.

you're blaming them for not seeing into the future to know that flemming was going to get hurt

you're getting pretty goofy about this particular topic


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our receivers stink! they should've known it!

uh they thought flemming was good but he got hurt

he's never caught a pass!

uh yeah, he got hurt remember?

 

[PhatOrange]

I would argue that for the most part there isn't a system that fits the current groups skill set.

of course just speculating but i think the current group's skill set would've been WAY better off with Hackett. More short underneath stuff as well as Hackett would've maximized Hunt by rolling him out, moving the pocket, and using the tight ends.

Would've used the backs more in the passing game as well.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

you're blaming them for not seeing into the future to know that flemming was going to get hurt

you're getting pretty goofy about this particular topic


---------
our receivers stink! they should've known it!

uh they thought flemming was good but he got hurt

he's never caught a pass!

uh yeah, he got hurt remember?

You're getting time order wrong here. I get it. It's Monday.

It's not that they could have known that Flemming was going to get hurt. It's that they were pinning their hopes on a player that hadn't done anything. They knew that before the injury.

And no, I'm not counting drawing a PI on Rutgers as grounds for establishing a guy as your #2 wideout.

 

[Millhouse]

You're getting time order wrong here. I get it. It's Monday.

It's not that they could have known that Flemming was going to get hurt. It's that they were pinning their hopes on a player that hadn't done anything. They knew that before the injury.

And no, I'm not counting drawing a PI on Rutgers as grounds for establishing a guy as your #2 wideout.

Do you know how college football works?

We don't generally get to make trades for all americans.

Jameis winston hasn't done a thing before this year!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Do you know how college football works?

We don't generally get to make trades for all americans.

Jameis winston hasn't done a thing before this year!

Right, because evaluating the potential of success for RF Winston vs SR Flemming is a completely balanced exercise.

aye yi yi, to quote one of my fav posters

 

[OttoMets]

I'm not buying the "we only have one way to go and that's up" with Kool Kid.

To the contrary, we could have more of the same next year or actually regress even further. Everyone seems to want to give this guy a free pass on the belief that miraculously, the completely unproven recruits we have coming in next year (as well as the two QB's who came in last year) will click and all will be well. I'm not buying it. The emphasis here is on the unproven. True freshman rarely come in and light it up in year 1. Ditto for a new QB. The things that are the most concerning to me are the controllables which are not being addressed. Constant penalties, confusion on substituitions and personnel, inability to use the clock correctly. These are coaching failures by and large, not personnel related.

We've got a guy who is learning on the job, appears to be slightly ADD with his play calling and will unlikely be here very long anyway. Where does that leave us long term ? We are a program that has struggled with mediocrity for the better part of a decade plus. We are an afterthought on the national scene.

This year feels like a whole lot of backwards instead of forward.

This sums up how I feel.

Yes, I have a bias against the career ladder-climber (no need to tell me that that's just the hand we're dealt or the state of the game or some such; I understand that - I just don't like it).

But he's bad right now.

He's likely to improve, but by how much?

He's gotten some commitments, but how many of them will arrive on campus? stay healthy? not get arrested? simply develop into productive players under this guy's scheme?

And where are we in a couple years when some upper-echelon team hires him away?

We've already wasted one year. Turnover is the enemy of winning programs. We've got a guy who right now is far from a capable coordinator; his struggles have cost us two wins.

The sky is not falling, but I don't like where the program is right now.

 

[Millhouse]

Right, because evaluating the potential of success for RF Winston vs SR Flemming is a completely balanced exercise.

aye yi yi, to quote one of my fav posters

i was just using your own logic.

SU had good seniors who caught lots of passes under different offensive coaches. What is McDonald and Shafer supposed to do about it?

Maybe Shafer should've forced Marrone to stop throwing so many balls to experienced guys last year. He could've been all hardnosed

there is no evidence supporting your presumption that shafer didn't know there was any problem and that he might've been able to do something about it if he had

egad, our passing game stinks! ergo shafer must've thought we were just fine and dandy at WR! how dare he think flemming was good? he hasn't caught a single pass after wrecking his leg!

 

[JeremyCuse]

More then willing to give Mcdonald another year to get some higher skill guys in place and have another year to implement his system. That being said its clear he has struggled mightly at times this year and if we lose to BC will be a big reason why this team is not bowl eligible.

 

[Orangello]

It's not that they could have known that Flemming was going to get hurt. It's that they were pinning their hopes on a player that hadn't done anything. They knew that before the injury.

Eggactly. This year and last year's recruits, with one or two exceptions (Estime), haven't done a thing and hoping against hope that they'll all be Brett Favre and/or Jerry Rice is silly. It's why the glass is half full of piss at the moment.

 

[Millhouse]

Eggactly. This year and last year's recruits, with one or two exceptions (Estime), haven't done a thing and hoping against hope that they'll all be Brett Favre and/or Jerry Rice is silly. It's why the glass is half full of piss at the moment.

who said they were hoping for any of that?

why are you guys so into mind reading?

what should they have done?

should they have claimed someone off the waiver wire?

 

[RF2044]

I'm not buying the "we only have one way to go and that's up" with Kool Kid.

To the contrary, we could have more of the same next year or actually regress even further. Everyone seems to want to give this guy a free pass on the belief that miraculously, the completely unproven recruits we have coming in next year (as well as the two QB's who came in last year) will click and all will be well. I'm not buying it. The emphasis here is on the unproven. True freshman rarely come in and light it up in year 1. Ditto for a new QB. The things that are the most concerning to me are the controllables which are not being addressed. Constant penalties, confusion on substituitions and personnel, inability to use the clock correctly. These are coaching failures by and large, not personnel related.

We've got a guy who is learning on the job, appears to be slightly ADD with his play calling and will unlikely be here very long anyway. Where does that leave us long term ? We are a program that has struggled with mediocrity for the better part of a decade plus. We are an afterthought on the national scene.

This year feels like a whole lot of backwards instead of forward.

#1, we lost a lot of important players from last year's team. So there was going to be "a whole lot of backwards instead of forward" in terms of the offensive production.

#2, we turned over nearly the entire offensive coaching staff in the offseason, so there was bound to be some growing pains.

#3, sure--things could get worse, but they could also get better. Our starting QB was completely green entering this year; now he has a bunch of starts under his belt. We're returning FOUR starting offensive linemen, and three of our top four RBs from a fairly solid running game. We're infusing the WR corps with some much needed playmakers, to go with a solid nucleus of Estime / Broyld. We redshirted two QBs this year who have been immersed in the system, and we're bringing in a pair of QB recruits--one of whom had a really impressive offer list and is the highest rated guy we've brought in in awhile. If any of those four beat out the incumbent, that's a good thing.

I'm sorry, but none of the above suggests the offensive regression you fear. I'm not suggesting that everything is going to magically come together next season offensively, but I am pretty confident that the production will incrementally improve over the next few years. In fact, I'd be flat out stunned if they regress, given the above factors.

 

[retro44]

what I don't get out of this thread is how horrible the play calling was during the last drive... the coaching was way too tight and conservative down the stretch minus the fake field goal attempt that took to long to set up.

come on running our slowest running back on a sweep to the short side doesn't help the argument here and the fact he called a swing pass to the short side immediately after that

 

[retro44]

To me after having a point after blocked and missed a very makeable field goal, it looks like this staff was playing for a long field goal attempt at the end.

not the signs of a genius here

 

[OttoinGrotto]

i was just using your own logic.

SU had good seniors who caught lots of passes under different offensive coaches. What is McDonald and Shafer supposed to do about it?

Maybe Shafer should've forced Marrone to stop throwing so many balls to experienced guys last year. He could've been all hardnosed

there is no evidence supporting your presumption that shafer didn't know there was any problem and that he might've been able to do something about it if he had

egad, our passing game stinks! ergo shafer must've thought we were just fine and dandy at WR! how dare he think flemming was good? he hasn't caught a single pass after wrecking his leg!

OK, I see what was confusing about my earlier post - this was the big thing:

I mean, they showed ZERO urgency bringing in wide receivers.

This is what it looked like the takeaway was supposed to be:

I'm irritated to think that the program was caught by surprise. I get it, they wanted to build around the run and stuff, which is fine and dandy but for all of the numbers at the WR position, that cupboard is pretty bare.

I just don't see how Marrone, the great talent evaluator, was planning on competing with that group.

 

[Timonen]

I agree with you regarding the bowls...that is obviously very important. I'm still up in the air about GM and his overall job calling the plays but I don't know what he knows...I'm not there for each practice. Coaches see something we don't every 2 or so hours a day. I just can't fathom that if these guys gave the ball to Jerome 30+ times and thought they could win and didn't do it. I personally don't think SU would win doing that but that's just my opinion.

I want to believe this and give the benefit of the doubt...but the lack of down/distance logic on playcalling makes me fearful that his brain just isn't constructing things in an especially effective way. If you can't manage the situation when you have 2 downs from 3rd and 11, you've successfully made 5-7 yards plays all day, but you go for all 11 on 3rd and then find yourself in 4th and 11, I honestly don't trust you to make good decisions on personnel, overall game plans, etc. My hope is that his weaknesses are compartmentalized, but I've found that's usually not how humans work. Either you have a handle on the aspects of your job or you don't. His life has been football for 20+ years, right? That stuff should just be muscle memory and "feel" at this point. That it's not is an honest concern for me. Guys like Mike Locksley and Ron Zook (and Frank Wilson and a bunch of others we can highlight from across the country) have ceilings because they can't really coach at the highest level. That said, there's no telling whether his ceiling is still a lot higher than our last 15 years...so I'm up for trying. Hopefully it works well enough for him to have somebody come and poach him.

 

[ForeverOrange]

this is a bit of a chicken or the egg argument. is it the OC or the QB and the WR? it really is all speculation but i blame the OC and believe our offense would be producing much better had the prior staff been kept in place. were seniors sales and lemon better than we have now? without a doubt, but they weren't exactly calvin johnson let alone mike williams. last year, our coaches put our players in a position to succeed. mcdonald hasn't done that.

last year was the first year in forever where we finally got the defenses to back off. now were back to 9 guys in the box. this puts too much pressue on the oline, rbs and qb. teams do to us exactly what we do to bad offenses we play. they pressure the heck out of the line of scrimmage and the ball. some say, "oh, we have a great defense." we certainly have talent there but it is more strategy at play then superior talent. we know most other teams don't have the playmakers to make us back off. however, when the team does, ala clemson and fsu, we get blown out.

mcdonald needs to find an offense that keeps the defense honest. he feels bubble screens does this by getting the ball in space away from the defenders. it is easier to win a 3 v 3 battle then a 8 v 8, etc. that actually is not a terrible strategy, but it doesn't work great when it is your only option and the DBs can crowd the line of scrimmage.

i don't want mcdonald fired. i agree he can improve. but he is the main reason this offense is struggling. not hunt. not the wrs. and not the o-line.

Sometimes it seems as though a lot of us only remember from the point we got Pugh back, on from last season. I am not saying there isn't blame to be spread to Mr. Kool, but at the same time, that line and offense looked awful last year without Pugh, and the receivers we have this season, could barely see the field last year. IJS, let's not act like everything was in place for continued success, because there is evidence to the contrary.

 

[SmilinBob]

We'll see Timonen. I do wonder how much of a free range Hunt has on his playcalls at scrimmage. One play...more options? I don't know.

 

[SmilinBob]

Sometimes it seems as though a lot of us only remember from the point we got Pugh back, on from last season. I am not saying there isn't blame to be spread to Mr. Kool, but at the same time, that line and offense looked awful last year without Pugh, and the receivers we have this season, could barely see the field last year. IJS, let's not act like everything was in place for continued success, because there is evidence to the contrary.

Good point. That Minnesota game looked a lot like some of the ACC games this year.

 

[Millhouse]

OK, I see what was confusing about my earlier post - this was the big thing:

I mean, they showed ZERO urgency bringing in wide receivers.

This is what it looked like the takeaway was supposed to be:

I'm irritated to think that the program was caught by surprise. I get it, they wanted to build around the run and stuff, which is fine and dandy but for all of the numbers at the WR position, that cupboard is pretty bare.

I just don't see how Marrone, the great talent evaluator, was planning on competing with that group.

Do you have any evidence of that?

How is one supposed to demonstrate urgency about this stuff? Infomercials?