Melo Bashing....

[Gabjon]

I think they'd be much more likely to make shots if they move the ball the way they did earlier in the year where they had nothing but wide open jumpshots. It's easy to point at their low shooting percentages now and say they can't shoot, but the shots they're taking now aren't nearly the same as the shots they used to get when the Knicks looked like a formidable opponent. Kidd, Smith, Pablo, Shump, Novak, Felton, and Copeland are all pretty good shooters. Give them shots where they can catch it in rhythm and not have a hand in their face and they'll probably hit a decent amount.

The reason the looks aren't as good is because Indiana is not doubling Melo. 90 percent of teams doubled him. Secondly they are not guarding chandler in the pick and rolls hibbert is just sagging in the middle. Woodson should run pick and roll with Melo setting the pick for felton this would put a guard on melo and force a double, than the ball can move to the open shooter.

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[Melancer46]

The reason the looks aren't as good is because Indiana is not doubling Melo. 90 percent of teams doubled him. Secondly they are not guarding chandler in the pick and rolls hibbert is just sagging in the middle. Woodson should run pick and roll with Melo setting the pick for felton this would put a guard on melo and force a double, than the ball can move to the open shooter.

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They might not be doubling him, but every time he drives, there's 2 or 3 guys collapsing on him. But I agree it isn't nearly all his fault, but he's still #2 on my list of who's to blame.

 

[Gabjon]

So...what? You bounced all over the map here.

I have no problem with melo taking a 15 foot fadeaway with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, in the fourth down by ten. At that point you are desperate for points and I'll take my chances with melo making that over the other options which quite frankly are terrible (I'll get to Woodson in a second).

However, I DO have a problem with melo taking that same shot when the score is 9-6 in the first quarter. At that point, it's simply a bad shot. Sure he has the same odds of making it as he would in the fourth, but alot of it is about the scenario. Get teammates involved. Get to the hoop. Draw the double team. Anything.

Concerning coach Woodson- Novak and Copeland, arguably the best long distance shooters, sit on the bench. Why? I understand you lose defense and Novak is shaken up but they can give instant treys which the Knicks are desperate for. Prigioni has proven to be much more serviceable than Kidd who hasn't hit a shot since Reggie miller was playing. He deserves more minutes.

If I had to rank the remaining teams in terms of "how fun are they to watch", Knicks would be 8. And no, of course this isn't all on melo, but he's got to be the one who demands change and sets the example.

I don't care about fun to watch and Melo is one of the best shooters in the world I always want him shooting 15fts if he is open. This is the NBA the foul line is 15ft away...Woodson deserves to ripped

 

[Gabjon]

They might not be doubling him, but every time he drives, there's 2 or 3 guys collapsing on him. But I agree it isn't nearly all his fault, but he's still #2 on my list of who's to blame.

Right because in basketball we blame the best player for not doing more. When his teammates play poorly that's his fault too even though his teammates are grown men making millions of dollar. Melo only carried the team for 3 quarters so it's his fault and everybody else but the coach gets a pass...

 

[Melancer46]

Right because in basketball we blame the best player for not doing more. When his teammates play poorly that's his fault too even though his teammates are grown men making millions of dollar. Melo only carried the team for 3 quarters so it's his fault and everybody else but the coach gets a pass...

That isn't what I'm saying at all. But as the go to player and the player that has the ball in his hands 90% of the time and as the player that everyone else plays off of, it is his job to try to balance his own shots with those of his teammates. And I'd hardly consider shooting 35% from the field or whatever Melo has done this postseason as carrying the team. He's been as bad as anyone not named Jason Kidd.

And it would be one thing if Melo was playing great and his teammates were just failing him, but Melo has sucked, and yet he's trying to score even more despite the fact that he's shooting so poorly. There's no reason he should shoot more rather than trying to get better looks for the team as a whole. And it's been ever since Game 1 of the playoffs. It's not like his teammates started struggling so he tried to take over. He's been a one man show the whole post season with the exception of Felton doing his best whenever he touches the ball (and even he's gone cold in this series).

 

[OrangeDW]

Yes, the Knicks are in trouble and yes, Melo hasn't played up to his full potential.

However, I simply cannot believe the amount of Melo bashing I have read on this forum in other threads.

Melo is a great player. He is not the best in the league, we can all agree on that.

As Cuse fans, it is inexpressable what he has done for all of us both directly and indirectly. Melo bashing on this forum is frankly unacceptable, which is not so say that there can be no fair criticism.

Does anybody here think even the great LeBron would beat Indiana with the supporting cast that Melo has ??? JR has been horrid, Jason has literally not scored in seven games (I thought Woody should have let him take that technical FT to try and get him going - the one that JR missed). Tyson is still obviously not 100%. Shump was hurt yesterday. Has anybody given Melo any help whatsoever other than Felton, who is a very nice player, but hardly a superstar PG. And how much help has Melo gotten from his $100M sidekick in all this ???

People talk about preferring Paul George to Melo. Give me a break. George is a very nice young player, but would anybody rank him amongst the league's Top Ten ???? People talk about George shutting down Melo, but how much of that is happening with Hibbert's help ???

The Knicks were winning when JR was playing well enough to share the load. With help, Melo did more than his part. The Knicks are a couple of fairly big pieces away, they will not acquire those pieces by hoping ancient mariners can climb aboard some time machine.

And all this is not to mention that I think Melo's shoulder has been bothering much more than has been let on. I think we will hear more on this after the season is over. Melo is a warrior and is giving it his all.

There are a lot of dumb basketball fans out there, seemingly more so than in other sports IMO.

JR Smith is shooting 28% and Chandler is averaging as many fouls per game as rebounds in this series. Those are the Knicks 2nd and 3rd best players. Felton is not playing all that well this series either.

Melo hasn't been great, but it's tough to score when the other 4 on the floor have been flat out awful offensively. He's far from the story here. The teams star catching crap no matter what, every time his team loses in the playoffs gets old. It's a tired act put on by dumb basketball fans and media who don't really understand much about the game or like to piggy back on the big "controversial" conversation.

 

[OrangeDW]

Melo can do other things. He knew his team needed help on the glass & he went out & got 9 boards yesterday. If you watched the game I saw him make a minimum of three kick out passes to wide open trey shooters that would have been assists....had they made the shots. He has stepped up his D play - D hasn't been the Knicks problem this series. Yes, scoring is what he does best, but he does do other things to try and win.

He also made that nice over the top pass to Chandler for a layup, and Chandler blew it.

Harping on a scoring SF's assist totals when the rest of his squad can't buy a basket at the moment is beyond dumb.

 

[Melancer46]

He also made that nice over the top pass to Chandler for a layup, and Chandler blew it.

Harping on a scoring SF's assist totals when the rest of his squad can't buy a basket at the moment is beyond dumb.

It isn't the assist totals. It's the fact that he flat out isnt trying to involve his teammates and restore the ball movement they once had. It's one thing if Melo is passing when 2 or 3 guys collapse on him, but instead, he's just throwing his arms up in the air and is wondering why the refs aren't bailing him out when he shouldn't be forcing these shots to begin with.

Again, when Dirk won the title, he didn't average many assists, but he made a lot of passes to keep the defenses honest and keep his teammates involved in the game. Melo is not doing that.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Right because in basketball we blame the best player for not doing more. When his teammates play poorly that's his fault too even though his teammates are grown men making millions of dollar. Melo only carried the team for 3 quarters so it's his fault and everybody else but the coach gets a pass...

Your orange glasses are practically glued to your face

 

[OrangeDW]

And yet the Pacers are the team that plays with maturity/look like a bunch of veterans while the Knicks look like a bunch of inexperienced players that are having calls go against them for the first time in their careers.

Regarding the OP, I'm with the crowd that doesn't think it's bashing Melo. It's legit criticism of his play. I do think LeBron replacing Melo would be enough for the Knicks to win the series, because LeBron replacing Melo would basically guarantee that the supporting cast plays better.

My biggest problem is with Mike Woodson. Melo hasn't shot the ball well pretty much the entire playoffs, and JR has been even worse. The supporting cast has gone cold in this series. So what does Woodson do? He focuses more on isolations, which only result in more difficult shots, players standing around watching and getting tight, and players losing their motivation because they aren't touching the ball at all. You're playing against a Pacers team that tries to force you inside and then collapse on you with their great length, so what does Woodson do? He puts out a lineup in which he has two big men that literally can't score so that the Pacers can focus even more on just making life a living hell for Melo and JR. Jason Kidd has been horrific, while Pablo Prigioni has shot the ball well and is just about the only guy on the team that still believes in ball movement, so what does Woodson do? He plays Pablo less and less with each passing game, and never lets him play important minutes. Melo and JR can't drive because when they do, there's 2 or 3 people there to contest their shots, so what does Woodson do? Nothing. He just lets Novak and Copeland and Pablo rust on the bench while he watches his team self-destruct before his very eyes. Woodson has done a lot of good for the Knicks over the past year and a half, but in this postseason, he's showing why the Hawks made the right move in firing him years ago. When the postseason rolls around, it's like he completely forgets what worked for them in the regular season.

The worst part about this is that it's now infected the players as well. Melo and JR have especially given up on their teammates (really, Melo has been playing this way before the opening tipoff of the playoffs started). I don't know why they did it, but the only chance that the Knicks have is if they get back to moving the ball around instead of giving it to Melo and watching what happens. That starts and ends with Woodson and Melo. Woodson has to have the balls to tell Melo that holding onto the ball for 15 seconds and then making a move and never passing the ball can only work here and there. This team drew a lot of comparisons to the Mavs team that won it all a couple years ago because they have Kidd and Chandler, and because they moved the ball so well. Melo has to reassert himself as the Dirk of this team; the go-to guy that is always looking to make the hockey assist. Dirk only averaged 2.5 assists per game during that amazing run, but he also shot the ball FAR better than Melo is, and if you account for hockey assists (where he skipped the ball to a teammate and they made the extra pass that led to a bucket, he would have likely been averaging double digits in that category. Watching that team was a thing of beauty, and watching the Knicks early in the year was the same way. Granted the supporting cast shot amazingly early in the year while they're shooting like crap now, but so is Melo, and he has to realize that he needs his teammates if they want to win, and his teammates won't get better if they don't move the ball around so that they can catch the ball in rhythm and get open shots/penetration to the hoop.

Sorry I kinda typed an essay, but it's just disheartening to see what this Knicks team has turned into, and while it isn't all Melo's fault, and he might not even be the one most at fault, he's definitely #2, and as the go-to guy on the team, he needs to make better decisions and get his teammates going. If you've been watching the Thunder series, while the Thunder have been losing, Durant talked about how important it was to get his teammates going in order for them to win, so early on, he tried to get Ibaka a lot of touches to work him out of his slump a bit so that he would play with some more confidence and so that it would rub off on the rest of the guys. That's the difference between Melo and Durant (besides the fact that Durant is flat out playing better). Durant realizes what needs to be done; Melo doesn't.[/

Durant is down 3-1 as well, correct? Just checking. He's finding out that it's hard to carry a mediocre supporting cast very far in the playoffs, without Russ. Melo's been in that spot his whole career.

JR Smith is getting a ton of looks, I really don't think your Durant to Ibaka point works. JR is getting looks, he's just not making them.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think they'd be much more likely to make shots if they move the ball the way they did earlier in the year where they had nothing but wide open jumpshots. It's easy to point at their low shooting percentages now and say they can't shoot, but the shots they're taking now aren't nearly the same as the shots they used to get when the Knicks looked like a formidable opponent. Kidd, Smith, Pablo, Shump, Novak, Felton, and Copeland are all pretty good shooters. Give them shots where they can catch it in rhythm and not have a hand in their face and they'll probably hit a decent amount.

Shumpert has never shot better than 40% in his entire career, including college. Maybe in high school he did. Pablo, Copeland, and Novak aren't even playing much. Felton is who we think he is. He's decent. Smith is getting looks.

 

[Gabjon]

That isn't what I'm saying at all. But as the go to player and the player that has the ball in his hands 90% of the time and as the player that everyone else plays off of, it is his job to try to balance his own shots with those of his teammates. And I'd hardly consider shooting 35% from the field or whatever Melo has done this postseason as carrying the team. He's been as bad as anyone not named Jason Kidd.

And it would be one thing if Melo was playing great and his teammates were just failing him, but Melo has sucked, and yet he's trying to score even more despite the fact that he's shooting so poorly. There's no reason he should shoot more rather than trying to get better looks for the team as a whole. And it's been ever since Game 1 of the playoffs. It's not like his teammates started struggling so he tried to take over. He's been a one man show the whole post season with the exception of Felton doing his best whenever he touches the ball (and even he's gone cold in this series).

His job is not to get everyone else involved. That is the job of the PG Felton, Kidd, and Prigioni. Melo does not point forward very often and when he does its a high pick and roll most of his positions are on Iso plays. Lebron is a point forward that is why Miami doesn't play with a real PG Chambers is off the ball most of the time. (Melo is not Lebron) In the playoffs they have been running him more screens but his job is to shoot and pass out of the doubles. He not shooting a great percentage but who on this team do you want taking those shots?

 

[OrangeDW]

It isn't the assist totals. It's the fact that he flat out isnt trying to involve his teammates and restore the ball movement they once had. It's one thing if Melo is passing when 2 or 3 guys collapse on him, but instead, he's just throwing his arms up in the air and is wondering why the refs aren't bailing him out when he shouldn't be forcing these shots to begin with.

Again, when Dirk won the title, he didn't average many assists, but he made a lot of passes to keep the defenses honest and keep his teammates involved in the game. Melo is not doing that.

I really don't even know what you're watching.

The Knicks aren't even isoing much, and save game 1 when Melo kept getting swallowed up by Hibbert, he's not even taking bad shots. He's literally been the Knicks only productive player the whole series...guess that's his fault! Not making his teammates better! JR misses open shot...Melo's fault! JR wasn't expecting to get the ball. JR takes stupid contested step back...Melo's fault! JR didn't know if he'd get the ball again. Jason Kidd can't get any looks because he's 96 years old and the Pacers defend the 3 exceptionally well...Melo's fault! Chandler averaging as many fouls as rebounds...Melo's fault! He needs to be a leader and inspire Chandler to get after it! K Mart is unguarded but still can't make 16 footers...Melo's fault! He should've helped him with his shot way back in Denver.

Novak and Copeland are glued to the bench...Melo's fault! He needs to tell the coach who to play like he supposedly did with Lin last year!

C'mon Melo, step it up!

 

[Melancer46]

Shumpert has never shot better than 40% in his entire career, including college. Maybe in high school he did. Pablo, Copeland, and Novak aren't even playing much. Felton is who we think he is. He's decent. Smith is getting looks.

1. Shumpert shot 40% from 3 this year and his eFG% this year is better than Melo's in all but two of his seasons. But Melo is supposedly an amazing shooter and Shumpert can't shoot at all?
2. Pablo, Cope, and Novak not playing is Woodson's fault. If you've read my posts, I put most of the blame on Woodson. At the end of the day, the guys that are getting minutes are: Melo, Chandler, Kenyon, Felton, JR, Kidd/Pablo (moreso Kidd lately), and Shumpert. Of those, all of them can knock down spot up 3's except for Kenyon and Chandler. The problem is that Melo and JR and occasionally Felton are the only guys capable of creating looks for those players, and Melo and JR have completely given up on that part of the game. Almost every time they've gotten the ball this post-season (Melo especially), they get tunnel vision and forget that their teammates or the other 4 defenders are even there. That is inexcusable, especially from the guy that's supposed to be your franchise player.

 

[Melancer46]

I really don't even know what you're watching.

The Knicks aren't even isoing much, and save game 1 when Melo kept getting swallowed up by Hibbert, he's not even taking bad shots. He's literally been the Knicks only productive player the whole series...guess that's his fault! Not making his teammates better! JR misses open shot...Melo's fault! JR wasn't expecting to get the ball. JR takes stupid contested step back...Melo's fault! JR didn't know if he'd get the ball again. Jason Kidd can't get any looks because he's 96 years old and the Pacers defend the 3 exceptionally well...Melo's fault! Chandler averaging as many fouls as rebounds...Melo's fault! He needs to be a leader and inspire Chandler to get after it! K Mart is unguarded but still can't make 16 footers...Melo's fault! He should've helped him with his shot way back in Denver.

Novak and Copeland are glued to the bench...Melo's fault! He needs to tell the coach who to play like he supposedly did with Lin last year!

C'mon Melo, step it up!

Please just read my posts. You're trying to call me out for making points that I'm not even making.

But at the end of the day, you're seeing what you want to see. Just because Melo is the only one scoring does not mean that he is being productive. Taking 25 shots to get 27 or 28 points a game isn't being productive. A guy that isn't shooting the ball well shouldn't be looking just to shoot. They should try to move the ball to get better shots.

 

[Melancer46]

His job is not to get everyone else involved. That is the job of the PG Felton, Kidd, and Prigioni. Melo does not point forward very often and when he does its a high pick and roll most of his positions are on Iso plays. Lebron is a point forward that is why Miami doesn't play with a real PG Chambers is off the ball most of the time. (Melo is not Lebron) In the playoffs they have been running him more screens but his job is to shoot and pass out of the doubles. He not shooting a great percentage but who on this team do you want taking those shots?

Kevin Durant and Dirk Nowitzki aren't point forwards either, but they still attempt to get everyone else involved. Durant has even said that it's his responsibility even though it's usually Reggie Jackson bringing the ball up now. The Mavs won their title because Dirk got hot and combined that with his new realization that if he can get his teammates going, it makes things easier for himself and increases the likelihood of his team winning. Melo hasn't had that realization yet, nor has he found his shooting stroke.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Please just read my posts. You're trying to call me out for making points that I'm not even making.
.

Welcome to syracusefan.com!

Btw, it's obama's fault. You're welcome.

 

[OrangeDW]

Funny thing with Paul George is he's shooting 35% and turning it over 5 times per game this series. Why isn't he getting killed for it? Because his team is winning, because they are better. THEY are better.

George is good, but George over Melo is a joke.

And yes, he's doing a nice job defensively. He's very good defensively, I'm not knocking him. Just pointing out some facts for those who like to hop on the underdog with lesser name value so they can feel smart like they're really coming up with something.

 

[OrangeDW]

Kevin Durant and Dirk Nowitzki aren't point forwards either, but they still attempt to get everyone else involved. Durant has even said that it's his responsibility even though it's usually Reggie Jackson bringing the ball up now. The Mavs won their title because Dirk got hot and combined that with his new realization that if he can get his teammates going, it makes things easier for himself and increases the likelihood of his team winning. Melo hasn't had that realization yet, nor has he found his shooting stroke.

LOL, the only difference with Dirk is that he shot better and so did his teammates. He didnt pass the ball any more or any better than Melo. He forced up tough fallaway midrange J's all the time...but they went in. Melo makes the same passes that could be "hockey assists" and often were in the regular season. The difference is the shots aren't going in.

Some credit has to be given to Indiana, it's not all coincidence. But JR shooting historically bad is a huge part of it. He's the biggest key right now, which is not a good thing.

 

[OrangeDW]

1. Shumpert shot 40% from 3 this year and his eFG% this year is better than Melo's in all but two of his seasons. But Melo is supposedly an amazing shooter and Shumpert can't shoot at all?
2. Pablo, Cope, and Novak not playing is Woodson's fault. If you've read my posts, I put most of the blame on Woodson. At the end of the day, the guys that are getting minutes are: Melo, Chandler, Kenyon, Felton, JR, Kidd/Pablo (moreso Kidd lately), and Shumpert. Of those, all of them can knock down spot up 3's except for Kenyon and Chandler. The problem is that Melo and JR and occasionally Felton are the only guys capable of creating looks for those players, and Melo and JR have completely given up on that part of the game. Almost every time they've gotten the ball this post-season (Melo especially), they get tunnel vision and forget that their teammates or the other 4 defenders are even there. That is inexcusable, especially from the guy that's supposed to be your franchise player.

Shumpert was also .396% from the field this year.

40 and 30 last year.
39 and 31, 39 and 33, and 40 and 28 in his 3 college seasons.

He can make open 3s, but he's not a good shooter and never has been. If you're talking about needing to get Iman Shumpet more looks, you're in a lot of trouble. Good player, not a good shooter.

 

[NineOneSeven]

LOL, the only difference with Dirk is that he shot better and so did his teammates. He didnt pass the ball any more or any better than Melo. He forced up tough fallaway midrange J's all the time...but they went in. Melo makes the same passes that could be "hockey assists" and often were in the regular season. The difference is the shots aren't going in.

Some credit has to be given to Indiana, it's not all coincidence. But JR shooting historically bad is a huge part of it. He's the biggest key right now, which is not a good thing.

This is minor, but that shot is what Dirk is famous for.

 

[Melancer46]

Funny thing with Paul George is he's shooting 35% and turning it over 5 times per game this series. Why isn't he getting killed for it? Because his team is winning, because they are better. THEY are better.

George is good, but George over Melo is a joke.

And yes, he's doing a nice job defensively. He's very good defensively, I'm not knocking him. Just pointing out some facts for those who like to hop on the underdog with lesser name value so they can feel smart like they're really coming up with something.

I personally haven't praised George's play in this series, but you kinda answered it yourself because he's been so good defensively. He's also averaging 8 rebounds, 5 assists, and 2 steals per game.

At the same time, Melo is shooting 40% in the series, and averaging 8.5 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1 steal per game.

I think the main guy that's been getting praised in this series has been Roy Hibbert, who hasn't been anything special in terms of scoring, but he's controlled the glass and the paint with his rebounding, shot blocking, and help defense on penetration.

 

[Melancer46]

LOL, the only difference with Dirk is that he shot better and so did his teammates. He didnt pass the ball any more or any better than Melo. He forced up tough fallaway midrange J's all the time...but they went in. Melo makes the same passes that could be "hockey assists" and often were in the regular season. The difference is the shots aren't going in.

Some credit has to be given to Indiana, it's not all coincidence. But JR shooting historically bad is a huge part of it. He's the biggest key right now, which is not a good thing.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Dirk passed the ball during that run at least two or three times more than Melo has this postseason IMO. That's the biggest reason the Mavs were one of my favorite teams to watch and the Knicks have been one of my least favorite.

 

[Gabjon]

Kevin Durant and Dirk Nowitzki aren't point forwards either, but they still attempt to get everyone else involved. Durant has even said that it's his responsibility even though it's usually Reggie Jackson bringing the ball up now. The Mavs won their title because Dirk got hot and combined that with his new realization that if he can get his teammates going, it makes things easier for himself and increases the likelihood of his team winning. Melo hasn't had that realization yet, nor has he found his shooting stroke.

Dirk averaged 2.5 assist a game that year. Durant lost his PG that he had all year, Melo has the PGs that he had all year.

 

[Melancer46]

Shumpert was also .396% from the field this year.

40 and 30 last year.
39 and 31, 39 and 33, and 40 and 28 in his 3 college seasons.

He can make open 3s, but he's not a good shooter and never has been. If you're talking about needing to get Iman Shumpet more looks, you're in a lot of trouble. Good player, not a good shooter.

Again, eFG is higher than Melo's almost every season of his career. By that same logic, you should be in trouble if you think Melo needs more shots.

Note that I'm not saying Shumpert is anywhere near the scorer that Melo is, and I don't think he's near the shooter that Melo is either. But any time you say a guy can knock down open 3's but you don't want to get him open 3's, that's a mistake IMO. An open 3 from a guy that can make them at a good clip > a contested mid-range jumper from a guy that's struggling with his shot moreso than Shumpert.

Edit: And yes, I know Shumpert has been struggling with his 3 point shot in this series too, but so has Melo, and Shumpert has shot it better over the course of the playoffs.