Mike Waters basketball chat on syracuse.com

[reedny]

I see tees.

I thought you'd like that.

 

[reedny]

My prediction,

2 guard is a strength of this team and the entire "2 guard is a weakness" conversation is irrelevant by the time ACC play starts.

I hope you're right (but I'm not holding my breath either).

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

My prediction -- the 2 guard issues become more relevant once ACC play starts. We have solutions for every other spot.

Add two more predictions:

Ron Patterson will be more of a factor as the season progresses than others in this thread seem to believe.

Roberson will play more than Grant did last season.

The Paul Harris bricklayers local will be happy

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[SoBristol]

SoBristol, like your predictions. Not sure about Patterson though. His defense looks great but not sure about his ball handling skills at 2 guard. Will he struggle from deep as so many freshmen do? I agree on Roberson. He appears to have a better overall skill set than Grant who struggled with his shot.

Grant was also better and more of a factor last year than many saw in pre-season. The main issue was we needed Southerland on the floor to provide the three point threat. Grant didn't get a lot of minutes until Southerland was out for 4 games in January.

I believe the forward combinations this season will work better (for Roberson's playing time).

What Patterson showed in Canada was speed on the break, hustle and movement on both ends, and the ability to get his own shot. He isn't a high percentage shooter, and he might drive JB nuts. But there is potential there. I question whether Cooney or Gbinije have a lot of upside over what they have shown so far (am pulling for both, but they have been with the program).

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Patterson plays big minutes this year we are in big trouble.

I'm with Mike Waters on this one. I am higher on Cooney than most. I will eat crow if he doesn't have a good year. He's capable of playing well against good comepetition. He showed that in the Big East Tournament last year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm really not sure why everyone was assuming BJ was going to be a guard? Not even trying to get into it, but it was my main reason for considering a red shirt for him. He isn't going to get minutes this season.

He played some guard in Canada, and he's a better looking 3 point shooter than Ennis and Gbinije, that's why. He looked like a zone buster.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Grant was also better and more of a factor last year than many saw in pre-season. The main issue was we needed Southerland on the floor to provide the three point threat. Grant didn't get a lot of minutes until Southerland was out for 4 games in January.

I believe the forward combinations this season will work better (for Roberson's playing time).

What Patterson showed in Canada was speed on the break, hustle and movement on both ends, and the ability to get his own shot. He isn't a high percentage shooter, and he might drive JB nuts. But there is potential there. I question whether Cooney or Gbinije have a lot of upside over what they have shown so far (am pulling for both, but they have been with the program).

Personally, Patterson disappointed me in Canada. I don't think he cracks the rotation this year.

 

[SoBristol]

Personally, Patterson disappointed me in Canada. I don't think he cracks the rotation this year.

OK -- we will see.
It depends on what you were expecting and looking for in the games in Canada. I thought Cooney & Gbinije were mediocre against the Canadian guards -- and disappointing because I was expecting a lot more. Both are juniors, both have been practicing in our program.

On the flip side, I wasn't expecting a lot from Patterson (other than defensive hustle) as a new kid who hadn't practiced with the team more than a few days. He is raw, but he can drive by a defender, and can get his shot off when guarded. The other guards aren't real quick on a break; Patterson is. Patterson did not hit a high percentage of his jump shots (actually, which of the guards did?); he needs to improve and he needs to be selective.

 

[SoBristol]

If Patterson plays big minutes this year we are in big trouble.

I'm with Mike Waters on this one. I am higher on Cooney than most. ...

For clarification, I am not talking about "big minutes" for Patterson. I expect he gets 4th guard minutes in November-December, and then it depends on how he improves. Cooney might settle down as a starter and shoot in games as he shoots in practice. Or he might struggle as he did in Canada.

People tend to lock in on judgments. Pre-season, CJ and Keita were not going to play as frosh. Pre-season, Fab was one and done as a frosh. Or, Grant as a frosh was going to be treated like MCW and sit behind Rak, CJ and Southerland.

 

[Shenexon]

Boeheim has a lot of tools available to him and I think he's going to have fun this year. The main issue to me is how well the new guys blend with the old guys. Ennis already seems like he's played with the team for a year, but BJ, Roberson, & Patterson may take a while to adapt to JB's standards. When they do start to click, we could see an exceptional team.

 

[br801]

Yeah, I don't have the patience that some of the older probably wiser fans and reporters have.
I like to play with fire when you have the talent to do so. I think back to Dion and MCW finally coming on strong as lane scorers at the end of their freshmen seasons. They didn't get there without going through slumps early in the season. imo, we can't expect BJ or Ron to do that if we sit them for half the season.

I'm just glad you're not coaching this team. Having players wait their turn and eased into the mix when the talent ahead of them is significant and experienced seems to be working out pretty well for JB.

 

[anomander]

He played some guard in Canada, and he's a better looking 3 point shooter than Ennis and Gbinije, that's why. He looked like a zone buster.

personally i agree with that 100%. however it doesn't matter what we think

 

[orangefan13]

I think Gbinije finding a shot in the lane will be the key to how many minutes he gets at SG. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cooney get around 30 minutes at sg if he doesn't.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think Gbinije finding a shot in the lane will be the key to how many minutes he gets at SG. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cooney get around 30 minutes at sg if he doesn't.

Good observation. I agree. Mike's got to find his place in the offense, and that midrange might be the ticket.

 

[Oakland]

Help me out -- what are you taking issue with?

My initial post was this:

"Offense is rarely a problem for Jim Boeheim-coached teams." - don't agree with that statement. I'd say it was a problem maybe 3 of the last 6 seasons.

Your main reply was that if the team wins then the offense is not a problem. In one sense, if you want to overlook that the D has been much better than the O in certain recent years, and you are satisfied with the team's record then you would be correct. If on the other hand, if you see that the O has not been what we wanted in a number of recent years, and that this is maybe the major reason why we have poor records against a number of our main rivals and we don't have the tournament success we want, then you would be incorrect.

The main reason why I asked if you watched SU games is that you said, "I'm not really sure there's an argument for serious offensive problems". It is hard to imagine anyone watching the games last season and not being aware of serious problems on O. The team was consistently poor in the half court O, had bad outside shooting, no O from the center position, featured MCW repeatedly jumping in the air and passing the ball to the opponent, and too-many-to-want-to-remember airballs by TC and DC. Having been in many chat rooms, and read many posts on this board last season, I can assure you that the vast majority of people here think that last season's team had many serious O problems (BTW, the statistics support this opinion).

Beyond watching the games, the NCAA reports that D-1 ppg scoring for the last 10 yrs has been (recent to oldest): 68, 68, 69, 69, 69, 70, 69, 69, 69, 70, so I'm not sure what, "era of drastically decreased scoring across college basketball", you are talking about. Finally, it is prefectly clear that last year's team went to the FF because of its D and inspite of its O, and lost in the semi's while holding Mich to under 40% shooting because we could only score 56 pts.

 

[Garbs]

Mike agrees with me. Roberson has the best shot at the NBA. He's the most talented player on the team.

I disagree and think most NBA scouts would agree with me. Right now (today) Jerami has the best shot at the NBA.

 

[rrlbees]

I disagree and think most NBA scouts would agree with me. Right now (today) Jerami has the best shot at the NBA.

I think Grant might leave after this year and Roberson after next. I bet Roberson will go higher.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[anomander]

Good observation. I agree. Mike's got to find his place in the offense, and that midrange might be the ticket.

Mikes ticket will be his defense at the top of the zone. I think any offense we get from him this season will be a bonus. And this is another reason why I don't see BJ getting many minutes at the 2 this season.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Exactly what I was thinking, and why I came away from the "Chat" disagreeing with Waters take on the guard rotation. I'm not disputing that BJ may be doing some drills with the forwards, as Waters notes from seeing one early practice. But as the season unfolds, if BJ can shoot the ball and handle it well enough to avoid turnovers -- exactly as we saw him do in Canada after a few freshman jitters -- then he's going to get minutes.

As far as where those minutes will be, Waters and I disagree. The 3 is out (CJ/Roberson), so the 2 is his best chance to play, and it just so happens that this is also a potential weak link in this team.

Now, before you TC fans flame out, yes he might break out, as Waters thinks. Or, he might do exactly what he did all last year (and so far this year), and shoot 26%. If it's door #2, I can almost guaranTEE you that BJ's going to get minutes at SG.

Why not MG, as Waters thinks? Well, I like his (MG's) handle for a 6'7 kid. He's also poised and can definitely fill in for 5 or 6 minutes at the point. But I've seen nothing from him so far that would suggest he could be an outside threat at the 2 -- which is a very important part of JB's offense (not just for points, but also to open up the inside). So unless MG becomes a sharpshooter overnight, and TC undergoes a massive cranial transformation, I'd say Waters has mis-predicted the 2-guard rotation.

Someone can set me straight since I've never been to practice. When I've been at coaching clinics Boeheim has said they spend much more time working on offense than defense. They get into groups and work on offensive moves and break the kids up into guards and forwards. I also have heard him say many of the forwards with range work on moves farther from the basket. This shouldn't impact if he plays the 2 should it? I mean if they start running defensive 2-3 stuff and he is at the 3 the whole time then I would say that would say more right. He is 6-7 so he is probably working with the forwards. Maybe I misunderstood what Waters was saying?

 

[MikeSU02]

I think Grant might leave after this year and Roberson after next. I bet Roberson will go higher.

That's not really a fair comparison. You don't know the talent to knock these guys down the line. If the 2014 draft comes to fruition as projected, it will be one of the best drafts in a while.

Neither of these guys are franchise-changers, which means they will get drafted based on what role they fill and what team needs them.

 

[reedny]

Someone can set me straight since I've never been to practice. When I've been at coaching clinics Boeheim has said they spend much more time working on offense than defense. They get into groups and work on offensive moves and break the kids up into guards and forwards. I also have heard him say many of the forwards with range work on moves farther from the basket. This shouldn't impact if he plays the 2 should it? I mean if they start running defensive 2-3 stuff and he is at the 3 the whole time then I would say that would say more right. He is 6-7 so he is probably working with the forwards. Maybe I misunderstood what Waters was saying?

It's very early to make prognostications ... including drawing conclusions from a few pre-season practices (although this was a fun report to read).

My reasoning is simple: We need an outside shooter. Many think TC is that guy. Unfortunately, after a year in practice, another year in a backup role, and a few pre-season games ... he's making one out of every 4 shots he takes from 3. That's not going to get it done. Our bigs have enough trouble scoring inside, but without reliable outside offense to loose up defenses, we're headed for trouble. That's why the TC problem seems acute as we look ahead.

Now BJ is a freshman. Everyone agrees he's thin and still getting used to D-1 ball at this level. But, at least so far, he sems to be able to do one thing better than anyone else in the guard rotation .. hit the 3.

The rest is fodder for discussion.

 

[Flacusian]

OMG! All these predicted lineups and a veritable endless permutation of minutes for each player at multiple positions have got my head spinning. I think that only thing that can be predicted with any amount of certainty is the fact that there is essentially little certainty with the composition of line ups which we see put out on the floor early on in the season..

Among the certain things, Ennis and CJ will play more minutes than anyone else. JB will try many combinations of personnel in the early going and based on the results observed, the most capable players will get the lion's share of playing time as we move deeper into the season and into league play. Based on JB's past behavior, for the most part, seniority will prevail over youthful talent, consistent and outstanding defensive play will be at least equally rewarded as offensive prowess, one or two players will seemingly never do anything wrong in JB's eyes, and one player and possibly 2 will end up in JB's virtual doghouse and will be placed there for one of 3 reasons. 1. lapses in defensive play 2. Throwing up bad shots when an open man could have been passed to, 3. Publicly arguing with the coach.

There is so much talent, depth and diversity that it's hard to believe that JB will not be able to craft a team which will be able to compensate for any perceived deficiencies which have been mentioned here and that includes all the hand wringing that's been going on with the 2. I think that the only thing that will keep this squad from developing into a late season player among the elites of college basketball would be a significant injury to a key player. There's just too many great ingredients for Chef Boeheim not to be able to bake a great cake with this bunch.

 

[rrlbees]

That's not really a fair comparison. You don't know the talent to knock these guys down the line. If the 2014 draft comes to fruition as projected, it will be one of the best drafts in a while.

Neither of these guys are franchise-changers, which means they will get drafted based on what role they fill and what team needs them.

I know there can be fluctuations from year to year of the quality of the draft class. But I see Grant as top 20 maybe top 15. I see Roberson as top 5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reedny]

I know there can be fluctuations from year to year of the quality of the draft class. But I see Grant as top 20 maybe top 15. I see Roberson as top 5.

This is what we call a first world problem.

 

[MikeSU02]

I know there can be fluctuations from year to year of the quality of the draft class. But I see Grant as top 20 maybe top 15. I see Roberson as top 5.

Wow. Hope it comes true.