More division realignment talk | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

More division realignment talk

I'll bring back an old suggestion of mine

Rank the teams 1-14 based on what they did the year before and put teams 1,3,5,7,9,11 and 13 in one division, 2,4,6,8,10,12 and 14 in the other division. It will be more like a 14 team conference than a 7 team conference that plays a couple teams form another 7 team conference, which is what we've got now and we will have good competitive balance.
 
I like:

Atlantic: Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Miami, Virginia Tech, Virginia, Louisville
Coastal: FSU, Clemson, UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, NCSt, Georgia Tech
 
cusefan88 said:
I like: Atlantic: Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Miami, Virginia Tech, Virginia, Louisville Coastal: FSU, Clemson, UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, NCSt, Georgia Tech
i like this too, but it will never happen because UVA doesn't want to be in the Big East.
 
It means that the divisions are grouped other than by geographic location (East/West, North/South).

There is more to it than that. I think the idea is that teams are paired geographically and then split into divisions, with the paired teams as protected rivalry games:

FSU-Miami
Clemson-GT
Wake-Duke
NCSU-UNC

but, the ACC zipper got stuck in Virginia, so instead of

UVa-VT
MD-BC

we had

UVa-MD
VT-BC

With Louisville coming in, properly zippered divisions should look something like this

FSU-Miami
Clemson-GT
Wake-Duke
NCSU-UNC
VT-UVa
Pitt-Louisville
Syracuse-BC
 
i like this too, but it will never happen because UVA doesn't want to be in the Big East.

Adding two more Big East teams would solve that problem:

Eastern Division: Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Miami, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame, Louisville, Cincinnati
Atlantic Division: FSU, Clemson, UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, NCSt, Georgia Tech.Virginia
 
Whenever you do a divisional realignment remember the following games MUST BE PLAYED each year.
Florida State-Miami
North Carolina-Virginia
North Carolina-Duke
North Carolina-NC State
Virginia-Virginia Tech
Virginia-Duke
Georgia Tech-Clemson
Georgia Tech-Duke
NC State-Clemson
Miami-Virginia Tech
Duke- Wake Forest

Our games like Boston College-Syracuse, Syracuse-Pittsburgh, Wake Forest-NC State, Clemson-Florida State would likely want to be protected as well, but they aren't MUSTs.

Thus as our Duke fan has suggested the best format would be a zipper
I would put North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, Miami, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Clemson in one division
The other division is NC State, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Florida State, Louisville, Boston College, Georgia Tech

Coastal would be moving Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech to the Atlantic for Syracuse and Clemson.
Crossovers
NC State-UNC
VPI-UVA
Duke-Wake Forest
Pittsburgh-Louisville
Florida State-Miami
Syracuse-Boston College
Clemson-Georgia Tech

The problems with this are that we lose Georgia Tech-Duke and Clemson-NC State if anybody can fix this for the better this is what the process will look like.
 
Petition to get rid of divisions and conduct a championship game. 9-game schedule, rotating opponents with 1 (maybe 2 if that's what is so desired) annual game. Top two teams in the conference play for the conference championship.

Even with 2 annual games, you'll play every team once every other year.
 
Whenever you do a divisional realignment remember the following games MUST BE PLAYED each year.
Florida State-Miami
North Carolina-Virginia
North Carolina-Duke
North Carolina-NC State
Virginia-Virginia Tech
Virginia-Duke
Georgia Tech-Clemson
Georgia Tech-Duke
NC State-Clemson
Miami-Virginia Tech
Duke- Wake Forest

Our games like Boston College-Syracuse, Syracuse-Pittsburgh, Wake Forest-NC State, Clemson-Florida State would likely want to be protected as well, but they aren't MUSTs.

Thus as our Duke fan has suggested the best format would be a zipper
I would put North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, Miami, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Clemson in one division
The other division is NC State, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Florida State, Louisville, Boston College, Georgia Tech

Coastal would be moving Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech to the Atlantic for Syracuse and Clemson.
Crossovers
NC State-UNC
VPI-UVA
Duke-Wake Forest
Pittsburgh-Louisville
Florida State-Miami
Syracuse-Boston College
Clemson-Georgia Tech

The problems with this are that we lose Georgia Tech-Duke and Clemson-NC State if anybody can fix this for the better this is what the process will look like.


At some point a league has to tell it's members that there is a greater good beyond protecting a secondary or tertiary "rivalry".

Hell, we have basically blown up the notion of geographic logic and traditional rivalries through the course of conference realignment over the past decade, but we have to protect Duke-Wake Forest? What the ?

The pro leagues have it all over college conferences in this regard. They realign divisions constantly to optimize ratings, travel, etc. So if the Colts have to stop playing the Dolphins, Bills, Jets and Pats, and go play the Titans, Jaguars, and Texans? Well, happens, suck it up, it's for the good of the league.
 
Petition to get rid of divisions and conduct a championship game. 9-game schedule, rotating opponents with 1 (maybe 2 if that's what is so desired) annual game. Top two teams in the conference play for the conference championship.

Even with 2 annual games, you'll play every team once every other year.

The SEC petitioned in 1990 to have a conference championship with one "division" of 11 teams. The NCAA, citing a rule made for Division III, declined. And that ruling set off a wave of catastrophic conference expansion that lasted 20 years.

So yeah, guessing that petition will fail.

;)
 
At some point a league has to tell it's members that there is a greater good beyond protecting a secondary or tertiary "rivalry".

Hell, we have basically blown up the notion of geographic logic and traditional rivalries through the course of conference realignment over the past decade, but we have to protect Duke-Wake Forest? What the ?

The pro leagues have it all over college conferences in this regard. They realign divisions constantly to optimize ratings, travel, etc. So if the Colts have to stop playing the Dolphins, Bills, Jets and Pats, and go play the Titans, Jaguars, and Texans? Well, happens, suck it up, it's for the good of the league.

At the end of the day, the most important thing that probably every team unanimously wants to protect is to keep Miami and Florida State in separate divisions. Guarantees each team no worse than 1 trip every other year to the most talent rich state in the league's footprint.

After that, I think people will probably get to pick one rivalry at best to preserve. So UVA might need to pick between a VT rivalry that hasn't gone well for them in quite some time, or a UNC rivalry. If they don't get their way are they going to call up the Big 10?

I don't really care what happens as long as we don't have to play UConn, Cincy, USF, Rutgers anymore. I start to throw up in my mouth a little when I even think about it.
 
At the end of the day, the most important thing that probably every team unanimously wants to protect is to keep Miami and Florida State in separate divisions. Guarantees each team no worse than 1 trip every other year to the most talent rich state in the league's footprint.

After that, I think people will probably get to pick one rivalry at best to preserve. So UVA might need to pick between a VT rivalry that hasn't gone well for them in quite some time, or a UNC rivalry. If they don't get their way are they going to call up the Big 10?

I don't really care what happens as long as we don't have to play UConn, Cincy, USF, Rutgers anymore. I start to throw up in my mouth a little when I even think about it.
of all the stupid things i've said, this might be the most stupid. i'm sure there's a rule about it. but if schools feel so strongly about a rivalry that the acc doesn't accomodate, why not schedule that team as an "ooc" game

we can call it ICOOC in conference out of conference. we can't call it oocic. that just sounds dumb unlike icooc. sounds like some apple product. hi tech. snazzy
 
9 game conference schedule

North (AKA south with 3 northern teams)

Boston College
Louisville
Miami
Pitt
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech
South
Clemson
Duke
Florida State
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
NC State
Wake Forest

UVA-UNC, Miami-FSU, VT-GT are guaranteed games every season.

The only problems are minor, insignificant, nitpicks. ie. "North looks too much like old Big East" and "We don't want a 9 game conference schedule".
 
I like this combo a lot:

Atlantic------------------------------------Coastal
Florida State-------------------------------Miami
Georgia Tech------------------------------Clemson
North Carolina----------------------------NC State
Duke----------------------------------------Wake Forest
Virginia------------------------------------Virginia Tech
Louisville----------------------------------Pittsburgh
Boston College----------------------------Syracuse

which amounts to a Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Duke and Virginia for Clemson, NC State, Wake Forest and Syracuse swap and I think keeps the majority of the rivalries
 
keep the standard 8 game where schedule goes 6-1-1 (division-perm cross rival-rotating team)
go to 9 conference games in a 6-2-1 (division-perm cross rival-rotating team)


2 permanent rivals:
Florida State-Miami, Clemson
Georgia Tech-Clemson, Miami
North Carolina-NC State, Duke
Duke-Wake Forest, NC State
Virginia-Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh
Louisville-Pittsburgh, Syracuse
Boston College-Syracuse, Virginia Tech
Miami-Florida State, Georgia Tech
Clemson-Georgia Tech, Florida State
NC State-North Carolina, Duke
Wake Forest-Duke, North Carolina
Pittsburgh- Louisville, Virginia
Syracuse-Boston College, Louisville

Typical Syracuse Schedule:
Miami
Clemson
NC State
Wake Forest
Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech
Boston College
Louisville
Florida State/Georgia Tech/North Carolina/Virginia/ Duke
 
These divisional threads are entertaining. Something everyone has to understand is:
1) There will not be a North/South split. UVA, VaTech, even Pitt will never go for this. Schools like UVA will not "suck it up" for the sake of the conference. Not everyone is equal, certain entities will get taken care of. Anyone who's ever been a partner in a business understands this. Maybe in 10 years the dynamics shift, and other schools will have leverage. But things will never be equal.

2) ND is NOT joining full time. Spend five minutes with their alum and you'll understand this. They would rather shutdown the football program. Simple game theory allows ND to keep their sweetheart status: No conference wants to see them join any other conference. So they'll be taken care of in any playoff/bowl scenario. I don't like it, I remember what that partial-member crap did to the old BE, but it's reality. Yes, I understand they're on the ACC website. That's not what we're talking about here, let's have a big boy discussion.

3) Assume that the NCAA does not allow non-divisional pods anytime soon.

Given the constraints above, the current setup is pretty good for Syracuse. We play BC and Pitt every year (adding Louisville to that next year). It's tough to be in the same division as FSU/Clemson, but keep in mind those two teams probably had their best squads in decades this year. It won't always be flat-out impossible to contend in the Atlantic.

The only realistic improvement would be going to a 9-game schedule. The southern schools would resist this because they already have their annual SEC rivalry game, so in years they have ND that would mean a very inflexible schedule...but if the SEC adopts a 9-game slate then the ACC probably will too.
 
Tell me if I'm crazy, but what if divisions changed yearly? Could that ever work?

You're not crazy. It would be easier with sixteen teams and pods of four, but it could be done. I think it should be done.

I get the argument that you don't develop rivalries otherwise, but that doesn't make sense with the divisions not geographical and with 7 teams in the division. FSU is never going to develop big time rivalries with Pitt and BC, just won't happen, but the current structure basically PREVENTS FSU and GT from ever playing each other, and BC and Pitt. The current divisions have been in place for years and haven't created any rivalries where there weren't before, and it has broken up others (FSU-GT, Wake-UNC)

The fundamental problem is that in the ACC, nobody needs 7 annual set opponents, which is what we have. It's just awful. We leave too many good games (Miami-Clemson, Clemson-VT, VT-FSU, Louisville-VT, Miami-SU etc etc etc) on the table, and yet play FSU-BC, Pitt-Duke, SU-Wake, every single year. Those are games that just aren't justified by either tradition, proximity or national appeal.

I can understand (although I respectfully disagree) with the problems with a north-south split. But at least that creates some proximity and history sensibility to the seven mandated annual games.

So if you don't want to do north/south, I really think the best bang for the buck is a totally new (albeit complicated) system based on two pods of five teams and one pod of four teams. Set the schedule accordingly so each team has four (or in the case of the 4-team pod, five) every-year opponents. Those are the rivals. Nobody needs more than those.

Most likely that would mean no division, and the top two seeds to the ACC championship game. That's ok. I understand that is against the rules now, but that rule can be changed. We already know the B12 wants to change it, and there is no real reason for any other conference to oppose it, other than spite. That rule is a vestige of the old, over-powerful NCAA, and we are moving into an era where the conferences will be empowered with those kinds of decisions. Changing that rule should be the easiest part of the scenario.

With 16 teams, I would match two pods into a division for two year periods, and re-rack it, but it isn't an option with 14. So forgo the divisions, which almost nobody knows anyway...even on here I see the names used incorrectly. Nobody outside the ACC knows what teams are in which division after 8 years of this anyway. Hell, outside the SEC I bet most fans don't know the divisions of other conferences. Divisions just haven't worked out all that well for anyone beside the SEC, and probably hastened the destruction of the Big 12.

It's time for fresh thinking, and the ACC should be on the forefront.
 
These divisional threads are entertaining. Something everyone has to understand is:
1) There will not be a North/South split. UVA, VaTech, even Pitt will never go for this. Schools like UVA will not "suck it up" for the sake of the conference. Not everyone is equal, certain entities will get taken care of. Anyone who's ever been a partner in a business understands this. Maybe in 10 years the dynamics shift, and other schools will have leverage. But things will never be equal.

2) ND is NOT joining full time. Spend five minutes with their alum and you'll understand this. They would rather shutdown the football program. Simple game theory allows ND to keep their sweetheart status: No conference wants to see them join any other conference. So they'll be taken care of in any playoff/bowl scenario. I don't like it, I remember what that partial-member crap did to the old BE, but it's reality. Yes, I understand they're on the ACC website. That's not what we're talking about here, let's have a big boy discussion.

3) Assume that the NCAA does not allow non-divisional pods anytime soon.

Given the constraints above, the current setup is pretty good for Syracuse. We play BC and Pitt every year (adding Louisville to that next year). It's tough to be in the same division as FSU/Clemson, but keep in mind those two teams probably had their best squads in decades this year. It won't always be flat-out impossible to contend in the Atlantic.

The only realistic improvement would be going to a 9-game schedule. The southern schools would resist this because they already have their annual SEC rivalry game, so in years they have ND that would mean a very inflexible schedule...but if the SEC adopts a 9-game slate then the ACC probably will too.

Agree with 1 and 2 absolutely, 100%.

I think you're dead wrong on #3. The entire posturing on a breakaway or Division 4 and everything is exactly about wresting control of those type of laws that benefit nobody but just serve the capricious will of the NCAA to legislate. There is no better example of an unnecessary rule on power conferences by the NCAA, and it could be the first one to go. There won't be any major breakaway or Division 4, exactly because the NCAA is ready to back off rules like this.
 
Here's a piece I wrote six months ago on getting rid of divisions completely. There are other ways to structure it, but I think this lays out a pretty strong case for the pros of doing so...

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/...ivisions-altogether-this-is-what-the-schedule
lou, im gonna need you to send me a lot of booze for that 2015 schedule you gave us. the 1 with fla st, clemson, vpi & lville, thats a 'helllo, goodbye' sched if i ever saw 1.

at some point, i got to figure that the other 4 confs are going to put the screws to the bevo and tell them to go to 12.

this no champ game bullspit, but yet 2 teams in the bcs is just that, bullspit.
 
lou, im gonna need you to send me a lot of booze for that 2015 schedule you gave us. the 1 with fla st, clemson, vpi & lville, thats a 'helllo, goodbye' sched if i ever saw 1.

at some point, i got to figure that the other 4 confs are going to put the screws to the bevo and tell them to go to 12.

this no champ game bullspit, but yet 2 teams in the bcs is just that, bullspit.

Hahaha. Now you see why I keep telling you guys to downgrade your OOC to four scrubs, LOL.
 
lou, im gonna need you to send me a lot of booze for that 2015 schedule you gave us. the 1 with fla st, clemson, vpi & lville, thats a 'helllo, goodbye' sched if i ever saw 1.

at some point, i got to figure that the other 4 confs are going to put the screws to the bevo and tell them to go to 12.

this no champ game bullspit, but yet 2 teams in the bcs is just that, bullspit.

Actually, not necessary any more. Only reason they got a second is because of the limit on two teams per conference in the BCS. No restriction to access bowls next year. Would be South Carolina probably, maybe Missouri instead of OU if not for that restriction.
 
Actually, not necessary any more. Only reason they got a second is because of the limit on two teams per conference in the BCS. No restriction to access bowls next year. Would be South Carolina probably, maybe Missouri instead of OU if not for that restriction.
what we need is for the ACC, b1g, pac & sec champ all have 1 loss after the champ game...and have them all jump an undefeated texas team for the F4.

no shot accross the bow, just a direct hit.

great season guys, but your conf sucks and you just skipped the most important week and game of the season. enjoy the chik-fil-a v ucf.
 

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