More division realignment talk

[Scooch]

The fundamental problem is that in the ACC, nobody needs 7 annual set opponents, which is what we have. It's just awful. We leave too many good games (Miami-Clemson, Clemson-VT, VT-FSU, Louisville-VT, Miami-SU etc etc etc) on the table, and yet play FSU-BC, Pitt-Duke, SU-Wake, every single year. Those are games that just aren't justified by either tradition, proximity or national appeal.

Lou, you got to the heart of the matter with this. IMHO, the great thing about NFL alignment is that each team plays a small core of division opponents every year and everything else floats. It's madness that just 38% of an NFL team's schedule is guaranteed to be the same every year, while 67% of an ACC team's schedule is the same each year. Teams in one ACC division will play 43% of the league just once every SIX years. In a 14 team conference! Meanwhile in the 32-team NFL a team never goes more than 4 years without playing every team. The whole setup is bonkers.

 

[Moontan]

Here's a piece I wrote six months ago on getting rid of divisions completely. There are other ways to structure it, but I think this lays out a pretty strong case for the pros of doing so...

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/...ivisions-altogether-this-is-what-the-schedule

The alternative (from that article's comments) of 3-fixed annual games and alternating home-and-away series with the rest is probably the way to go until the ACC has 15/16 permanent football members.

 

[Lou_C]

Lou, you got to the heart of the matter with this. IMHO, the great thing about NFL alignment is that each team plays a small core of division opponents every year and everything else floats. It's madness that just 38% of an NFL team's schedule is guaranteed to be the same every year, while 67% of an ACC team's schedule is the same each year. Teams in one ACC division will play 43% of the league just once every SIX years. In a 14 team conference! Meanwhile in the 32-team NFL a team never goes more than 4 years without playing every team. The whole setup is bonkers.

Except it's worse, because we do home and home, so it's more like 12 years, then two in a row.

 

[omniorange]

Lou, you got to the heart of the matter with this. IMHO, the great thing about NFL alignment is that each team plays a small core of division opponents every year and everything else floats. It's madness that just 38% of an NFL team's schedule is guaranteed to be the same every year, while 67% of an ACC team's schedule is the same each year. Teams in one ACC division will play 43% of the league just once every SIX years. In a 14 team conference! Meanwhile in the 32-team NFL a team never goes more than 4 years without playing every team. The whole setup is bonkers.

And I think your example of the NFL is precisely why a 16 team conference with 4 four-team pods and a 9 game schedule is truly the way to go.

Let's forget the ND pipe-dream and:

1) add WVU and one of Cincy or UConn to be the first major conference to get to 16 football teams
2) add G'Town to bring basketball to 18 teams
3) go to a 9 game schedule for football,
4) go to a 20-game schedule for basketball,
5) and get that ACCN up and running.

Tired of seeing other conferences take the lead, like the SEC (first major conference with football championship game) and BiG (first major conference with its own TV network). Time for the ACC to lead.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[baggerbob]

And I think your example of the NFL is precisely why a 16 team conference with 4 four-team pods and a 9 game schedule is truly the way to go.

Let's forget the ND pipe-dream and:

1) add WVU and one of Cincy or UConn to be the first major conference to get to 16 football teams
2) add G'Town to bring basketball to 18 teams
3) go to a 9 game schedule for football,
4) go to a 20-game schedule for basketball,
5) and get that ACCN up and running.

Tired of seeing other conferences take the lead, like the SEC (first major conference with football championship game) and BiG (first major conference with its own TV network). Time for the ACC to lead.

Cheers,
Neil

The only thing about Notre Dame, and why I believe their AD pulled the 5 games a year deal. Last year a bad Pitt team almost derailed their championship bowl hopes, this year an average Pitt team beat their 8-4 team. Within their 5 games a year they have agreed to, every year they are going to get 2 of Florida St, Miami, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Georgia Tech, and some group of Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Virginia, North Carolina St, Wake Forest. Their is a good possibility of them losing 2 or more games every year to the ACC, and then you have USC, Stanford, Michigan St. They might eventually realize the only way to the playoffs is through the conference.

 

[adbern7]

And I think your example of the NFL is precisely why a 16 team conference with 4 four-team pods and a 9 game schedule is truly the way to go.

Let's forget the ND pipe-dream and:

1) add WVU and one of Cincy or UConn to be the first major conference to get to 16 football teams
2) add G'Town to bring basketball to 18 teams
3) go to a 9 game schedule for football,
4) go to a 20-game schedule for basketball,
5) and get that ACCN up and running.

Tired of seeing other conferences take the lead, like the SEC (first major conference with football championship game) and BiG (first major conference with its own TV network). Time for the ACC to lead.

Cheers,
Neil

Why don't we move the ACC office to Providence and re-hire Pasqualoni while we're at it? I wouldn't want the ACC to add anyone except Penn St or ND (which as we've said isn't happening). But I guess that's another topic. On divisions, that article Lou posted is the most thought out suggestion I've seen that adheres to the constraints of no North/South divisions, no expansion, and an 8-game schedule. I might quibble that by putting Wake in the southern block, it doesn't guarantee the rest of the ACC a game vs. a Florida opponent every season...out of the 9 north/atlantic schools only 8 will play Miami or FSU in any given year (since Miami and FSU would each have 4 non-southern games in an 8-game ACC schedule). If Wake were to move to the North, then there would only be 4 schools in the southern block, so Miami and FSU would each have 5 non-rivalry games/year for a clean total of 10 northern/atlantic vs. Florida games every season.
I realize Wake may not want this, but hey if the B1G can tell Nebraska to and go the the Western Division, I'm guessing ACC can say that to Wake. Plus 'cuse could use the annual W.

 

[Toga]

Agree with 1 and 2 absolutely, 100%.

I think you're dead wrong on #3. The entire posturing on a breakaway or Division 4 and everything is exactly about wresting control of those type of laws that benefit nobody but just serve the capricious will of the NCAA to legislate. There is no better example of an unnecessary rule on power conferences by the NCAA, and it could be the first one to go. There won't be any major breakaway or Division 4, exactly because the NCAA is ready to back off rules like this.

Agree. That s--t ain't gonna fly no more.

 

[omniorange]

Why don't we move the ACC office to Providence and re-hire Pasqualoni while we're at it? I wouldn't want the ACC to add anyone except Penn St or ND (which as we've said isn't happening). But I guess that's another topic. On divisions, that article Lou posted is the most thought out suggestion I've seen that adheres to the constraints of no North/South divisions, no expansion, and an 8-game schedule. I might quibble that by putting Wake in the southern block, it doesn't guarantee the rest of the ACC a game vs. a Florida opponent every season...out of the 9 north/atlantic schools only 8 will play Miami or FSU in any given year (since Miami and FSU would each have 4 non-southern games in an 8-game ACC schedule). If Wake were to move to the North, then there would only be 4 schools in the southern block, so Miami and FSU would each have 5 non-rivalry games/year for a clean total of 10 northern/atlantic vs. Florida games every season.
I realize Wake may not want this, but hey if the B1G can tell Nebraska to and go the the Western Division, I'm guessing ACC can say that to Wake. Plus 'cuse could use the annual W.

I liked Lou's idea as well. I'd rate the probability of it actually happening though to less than the chance of ND joining full in football. And I don't like those chances very much. Waiting on ND, or PSU, or Texas will just slow progress down.

BiG will be going to a 9-game schedule by 2016. Pac and B12 are already there. SEC will eventually get there as well. ND sees the handwriting on the wall. They actually have a very smart AD. None of it seems to matter to the Irish. It's like they are in a bubble where everything is still peaches and cream. They have access to a 4 team playoff which most see becoming an 8-team playoff in the next decade. They have the best possible home for their basketball and olympic sports. Seems to me, they aren't budging unless someone casts a might powerful spell over them.

Texas has never wanted wanted what ND has wanted. They want a conference that is Texas-centric with southwestern teams in it. And those huge massive public BiG schools and the BTN have made it so I don't see the Nits ever jumping ship.

Got to be bold. Scott almost pulled it off for the Pac. I believe Swofford can do it for the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[nccusefan]

I like:

Atlantic: Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BC, Miami, Virginia Tech, Virginia, Louisville
Coastal: FSU, Clemson, UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, NCSt, Georgia Tech

Call me selfish but I don't want to be in the separated from all the Carolina teams. I'm sure there are thousands of other transplants in the Carolina's who would agree.

 

[Moontan]

Call me selfish but I don't want to be in the separated from all the Carolina teams. I'm sure there are thousands of other transplants in the Carolina's who would agree.

That's why you would like the other proposed solution in that article's comments. It would average out to one NC home game and one NC road game every year.

 

[nccusefan]

That's why you would like the other proposed solution in that article's comments. It would average out to one NC home game and one NC road game every year.

The pod system would work fine for everyone getting a local game in a reasonable period. How would that work with the conference championship game?

 

[Moontan]

The pod system would work fine for everyone getting a local game in a reasonable period. How would that work with the conference championship game?

Pods with 16 teams is easy. The divisions are virtual. The 2 pods that are joined that year form a division.

In the other 16-team pod model with 9 games in which each team plays 2 from each other pod, the top 2 teams would go to the CCG.

 

[Moontan]

He good news is that there are now three P5 conferences dealing with the issue. Look for some progress on this front as they negotiate their position within the NCAA.

 

[Geode]

Why does everyone assume that Clemson wont skip a beat when Boyd and their OC leave? I mean, i know the media has been slurping them the past few years but honestly, werent they pretty mediocre prior to that?

Clemson - the greatest team that never will...

 

[chakka3421]

Lou, you got to the heart of the matter with this. IMHO, the great thing about NFL alignment is that each team plays a small core of division opponents every year and everything else floats. It's madness that just 38% of an NFL team's schedule is guaranteed to be the same every year, while 67% of an ACC team's schedule is the same each year. Teams in one ACC division will play 43% of the league just once every SIX years. In a 14 team conference! Meanwhile in the 32-team NFL a team never goes more than 4 years without playing every team. The whole setup is bonkers.

THIS. ACC needs to use the NFL model as an example. The 2 best teams play in title champ game. If for example 2 teams are tied record wise for the 2nd team to get in, use a pre-established method agreed to by all conference members for tie breaking purposes.

SU could play BC, Pitt & Lville every year as it's 3 and rotate the other ten teams to play them 2 times every 4 years. Done!

 

[Lou_C]

Call me selfish but I don't want to be in the separated from all the Carolina teams. I'm sure there are thousands of other transplants in the Carolina's who would agree.

I get that. Keep in mind, in this scenario we are getting rid of the way we're all used to where anyone you're not in division with is seen few and far between. Even the ones you are "separated from" are going to rotate in pretty frequently. With four NC teams, you would see plenty of them. But I would be open to other variations on this general approach of course.

 

[Lou_C]

Why don't we move the ACC office to Providence and re-hire Pasqualoni while we're at it? I wouldn't want the ACC to add anyone except Penn St or ND (which as we've said isn't happening). But I guess that's another topic. On divisions, that article Lou posted is the most thought out suggestion I've seen that adheres to the constraints of no North/South divisions, no expansion, and an 8-game schedule. I might quibble that by putting Wake in the southern block, it doesn't guarantee the rest of the ACC a game vs. a Florida opponent every season...out of the 9 north/atlantic schools only 8 will play Miami or FSU in any given year (since Miami and FSU would each have 4 non-southern games in an 8-game ACC schedule). If Wake were to move to the North, then there would only be 4 schools in the southern block, so Miami and FSU would each have 5 non-rivalry games/year for a clean total of 10 northern/atlantic vs. Florida games every season.
I realize Wake may not want this, but hey if the B1G can tell Nebraska to and go the the Western Division, I'm guessing ACC can say that to Wake. Plus 'cuse could use the annual W.

That makes sense what you're saying on Wake. But there are two ways I'm thinking on this. One, Wake is the one team getting kind of screwed by this, in the sense of getting left out of their traditional Tobacco road group. I thought giving them the group with the best recruiting grounds and the more attractive football programs would be at least some consolation. They may not feel that way, to them it might be a death sentence to their hope of competitiveness.

The other thing to think about is that these are the teams that you are going to be married to on every year's schedule. Let's call a spade a spade, the North is light on star power. If you're in the North, do you really want to slot a game every year to Wake Forest, at the expense of another game vs. the Atlantic or South? I wouldn't if I were you.

I have a lot of affection for Wake, but they are kind of the dog in this whole thing, when you look at their ceiling, the interest they draw, their tiny fan base, and their traditional ties. If any group can absorb Wake it would be the powerful South Division.

That was just my thinking.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I get that. Keep in mind, in this scenario we are getting rid of the way we're all used to where anyone you're not in division with is seen few and far between. Even the ones you are "separated from" are going to rotate in pretty frequently. With four NC teams, you would see plenty of them. But I would be open to other variations on this general approach of course.

so we basically need the big5 to tell the ncaa, listen this is what we are going to do and you are going to like it. i also want them to keep the 12 team minimum and tell the bevo that they also need 12, their little boys club money grab drives me nuts.

also, can we all stop this north/south nonsense?? listen to lou, it doesnt work and we should all want to be in the south as much as possible.

 

[SUinNYC]

Here's a piece I wrote six months ago on getting rid of divisions completely. There are other ways to structure it, but I think this lays out a pretty strong case for the pros of doing so...

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/...ivisions-altogether-this-is-what-the-schedule

I love this.

I remember when you posted this, I thought..."This is so smart and logical. Why don't we do this?". Now, I think "This is so smart and logical. It will never happen."

But please keep linking to it because maybe the right person/people will see it...

 

[chakka3421]

That makes sense what you're saying on Wake. But there are two ways I'm thinking on this. One, Wake is the one team getting kind of screwed by this, in the sense of getting left out of their traditional Tobacco road group. I thought giving them the group with the best recruiting grounds and the more attractive football programs would be at least some consolation. They may not feel that way, to them it might be a death sentence to their hope of competitiveness.

The other thing to think about is that these are the teams that you are going to be married to on every year's schedule. Let's call a spade a spade, the North is light on star power. If you're in the North, do you really want to slot a game every year to Wake Forest, at the expense of another game vs. the Atlantic or South? I wouldn't if I were you.

I have a lot of affection for Wake, but they are kind of the dog in this whole thing, when you look at their ceiling, the interest they draw, their tiny fan base, and their traditional ties. If any group can absorb Wake it would be the powerful South Division.

That was just my thinking.

LouC - I'm not sure I like your math or breakdown. Off the top of my head, wouldn't it be better to set up a 3 pod x 4 team plus 2 over a 14 year schedule make more sense. The plus 2 is where you play home & away with your linked team (like FSU-Miami) and you play 6 teams 1 year the other 6 the next year then you go back to your 4 team regular pod after the 2 years you are out?

It may not work out cleanly for 2 of the teams but for the most part your playing your designated 4 team pod for 10 years out of the 14?

 

[Alsacs]

Atlantic------------------------------------Coastal
Florida State-------------------------------Miami
Georgia Tech------------------------------Clemson
North Carolina----------------------------NC State
Duke----------------------------------------Wake Forest
Virginia------------------------------------Virginia Tech
Louisville----------------------------------Pittsburgh
Boston College----------------------------Syracuse





This is the best division split I have seen with the must have games I have suggested good job. I will pass it along to my buddy who works for the ACC that I bitch too.

 

[RandygoCuse]

keep the standard 8 game where schedule goes 6-1-1 (division-perm cross rival-rotating team)
go to 9 conference games in a 6-2-1 (division-perm cross rival-rotating team)

Why not two rotating rivals and one permanent rival?

 

[Scooch]

Everyone proposing pods and all that should quit doing it for the ACC and think about if it makes sense for the SEC. If those guys move to a 9 game schedule and need pods to manage it then it could happen. Otherwise...

 

[omniorange]

Everyone proposing pods and all that should quit doing it for the ACC and think about if it makes sense for the SEC. If those guys move to a 9 game schedule and need pods to manage it then it could happen. Otherwise...

You should add the BiG to that as well. Seems like nowadays, if both the SEC and the BiG don't like it, it doesn't happen.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[riskylogic]

You should add the BiG to that as well. Seems like nowadays, if both the SEC and the BiG don't like it, it doesn't happen.

Cheers,
Neil

Get a grip. We're the ACC. They're like really so Not.