my big concern with Boeheim is still the zone (steph curry effect?)

[NineOneSeven]

How does Pitino have time to practice 3 defenses?

Pitino does things quickly... very quickly

 

[HOFCeluck]

How does Pitino have time to practice 3 defenses?

Was going to say Coach K has somehow found time to teach zone.

I also don't like the Izzo/Self 100 percent man philosophy either.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I will add, that this year JB did see it coming. He knew this team was going to struggle to pick up the zone and that is why we saw some M2M in the preconference season.

I don't think he did which is why I think he made the preseason comments that he did.

I think that, once we got into November and got into our games and he saw how they played it after a month of practice, he knew he had a problem on his hands.

But going into October 15th, I don't think he ever imagined how hard it would be for Gillon and White to pick it up as 5th year guys...

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Was going to say Coach K has somehow found time to teach zone.

I also don't like the Izzo/Self 100 percent man philosophy either.

Self admitted that switching to zone was the only reason they beat Kentucky this year...

 

[SoBeCuse]

I don't think he did which is why I think he made the preseason comments that he did.

I think that, once we got into November and got into our games and he saw how they played it after a month of practice, he knew he had a problem on his hands.

But going into October 15th, I don't think he ever imagined how hard it would be for Gillon and White to pick it up as 5th year guys...

Or TT being that bad as well.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Self admitted that switching to zone was the only reason they beat Kentucky this year...

You're right. He's made some good defensive adjustments in recent years (IE vs UNC to get to the final four in 2012)

 

[SUfanNC]

Was going to say Coach K has somehow found time to teach zone.

I also don't like the Izzo/Self 100 percent man philosophy either.

I'm not pro M2M or Zone. I think JB is smart enough to know in his experience that using the zone is the best way for him. What I like that K does is he has a base D then depending on how game is going he decides on how to move forward in that particular game. I would love to see JB do this as well. He has shown he can be a good game tactician by putting a press on during a game and really switching how the other team is playing. I don't think with JB's personality and being set in his ways he would be open to this (obviously my opinion cause I don't know the man personally...and I'm not him)

I like that K appears to shape his team each year based on what he has and also as the season goes. In this I am saying that JB is one of the best and would love to see him evolve a bit.

 

[orangecuse]

Man-to-man defense is a type of defensive tactic used in team sports such as American football, association football, basketball, and netball, in which each player is assigned to defend and follow the movements of a single player on offense. Often, a player guards his counterpart (e.g. center guarding center), but a player may be assigned to guard a different position. However, the strategy is not rigid, and a player might switch assignment if needed, or leave his own assignment for a moment to double team an offensive player. The term is commonly used even in women's basketball,[1] though the gender-neutral 'player-to-player' also has some usage.[2]

Appears simple enough and presumably why it's the standard defense and reasoning behind why 99.9% of the hoops teams play it. However, I understand how schools that get much lessor talent, as Syracuse typically does, when compared to its peer schools, or even mid-major types like Dayton, Butler, Xavier, etc., that SU just has no choice but to play the more specific/complicated zone if they want to be competitive.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Or TT being that bad as well.

I think he expects frosh to be bad...especially frosh bigs...he has said over and over again that it takes time for them to learn the zone...

I don't think he expected two 5th year guys to be that bad...

 

[Forza Azzurri]

You're right. He's made some good defensive adjustments in recent years (IE vs UNC to get to the final four in 2012)

But you are right...he is a 99.9% MTM guy...

 

[upperdeck]

UL plays the D many want here, press, mix it up.. they still lost because in the game that mattered the D was awful.. Duke was the same. play what you want just be good at it. UV played solid D most of the year and lost because the D was awful the last game and they couldnt score either.

 

[Orangeman]

Brooky, please. Stop confusing these guys.

It is a tenet of faith among some that M2M is the answer against outside shooting. To suggest it isn't is heresy. It's a left-over from the days when Billy Packer said, "If Team A keeps making those outside shots, Team B will have to come out of its zone and play M2M.

They'll just ignore your post and rattle on about the weakness of the SU zone against the 3.

The math is starting to work against the strategy. There are four distinct downsides to constant zone.

1) The lack of ball pressure allows inferior teams/talent to compete and hang in there.
2) The zone can "Create Shots" for inferior to equal teams without having to do anything...a couple passes, a slow rotation, bang they have an open look without "accomplishing anything". This also helps capable but inferior teams hang around.
3) The "dagger" threes at key times...as OP originally posted, the zone works due to percentages. But those %s go out the window on a "key play". The reality is that opposing coaches know you can overload a zone and get an open look whenever you want. See Buzz Williams, Jamie Dixon, etc. You're constantly hearing on this board that opposing teams hit dagger threes with high regularity...that's because whenever they want they can overload 4-on-3 and get an open look (picture Roberson over in the far corner guarding noone). It's not something you'd do every possession, but when you need a shot it's easy. Frankly, it can be as easy as rolling up a ball-screen (we have no hedging mechanism in the zone), drawing a slide and making the extra pass.
4) We get no easy baskets from transition out of our zone. In effect we have to out-score our opponents 1.25:1.0 because they get breaks and we don't

It is irrational given the current over-coached environment to exclusively play zone 4o mins a game. I hope this changes.

 

[Millhouse]

Ken Pom tracks 3 point % every year since 2002. ehre are the numbers

2002: 34.5%
2003: 34.7%
2004: 34.4%
2005: 34.6%
2006: 34.8%
2007: 34.9%
2008: 35.1%
2009: 34.2% (line was moved back this year)
2010: 34.2%
2011: 34.4%
2012: 34.3%
2013; 33.9%
2014: 34.5%
2015: 34.2%
2016: 34.7%
2017: 35%

So, this season is the second highest of all time, we are basically back to the levels we were hitting before the line was moved back.

I also did a weighted average, what I did was take the prior 3 years, and weight it 50% to the current year, 33% to the year prior, and 17% to the third year. So for example, the average for 2017 is 50% the 2017 average, 33% 2016, and 17% 2015. Obviously we need 3 years of data, so the first year for this is 2004.

2004: 34.5%
2005: 34.6%
2006: 34.7%
2007: 34.8%
2008: 35%
2009: 34.6%
2010: 34.4%
2011: 34.3%
2012: 34.3%
2013: 34.1%
2014: 34.3%
2015: 34.3%
2016: 34.5%
2017: 34.8%

So basically, the % was moving steadily up, by about a tenth of a percent per year, reaching 35% (34.98% but who's counting?), until they moved the line back in 2009. Not surprisingly, %'s went down that year, and it took a while for the moving average to catch up, and we still aren't quite at the level we were prior to the line moving out. Another year next year around 35% will get the 3 year average to right around 35%, where we were in 2008.

3 point shooting is steadily improving, which makes sense, but at the same time, we're not talking huge amounts. We allowed 863 3's this year. At 34% defense, that's 293.42 3's made. At 35%, it's 302.05. So an extra 10 3's over the course of the year. Which is a difference of 30 points, but it's really less than that, because some of those 10 threes that go from hits to misses result in offensive rebounds, and we'd give up some points off that.

there are so many teams that maybe the number doesn't move. I was surprised that our 3 pt shooting wasn't near the top - i think the improvement might be in the top 50. there are so many schools that the overall average doesn't move much

or maybe the 40th best always shoots this well and I'm just not aware (very possible, i haven't gone through all the years to find out where this year's 3 pt % would rank)

 

[HoustonCuse]

How does Pitino have time to practice 3 defenses?

Was going to say Coach K has somehow found time to teach zone.

I also don't like the Izzo/Self 100 percent man philosophy either.

Like I said, you can debate that JB isn't a good enough coach and that is why he must concentrate on the one rather than being able to do both. That said, the ability to recognize ones own weaknesses is probably one of the most important traits of elite performers in any field.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I don't think he did which is why I think he made the preseason comments that he did.

I think that, once we got into November and got into our games and he saw how they played it after a month of practice, he knew he had a problem on his hands.

But going into October 15th, I don't think he ever imagined how hard it would be for Gillon and White to pick it up as 5th year guys...

No, I mean once we got into playing. I think he recognized that we were going to have trouble after making those comments.

 

[HoustonCuse]

How does Pitino have time to practice 3 defenses?

By the way, I want to point out that this is the type of post that serves us zero purpose on this board. You are not making a point or engaging in a useful discussion or debate on merits. You took my post, which fully acknowledged that there are points of debate open to people who disagree with JB's philosophy and you throw a zinger about a completely unrelated coach from a different team (who got bounced in a huge upset as a 2 seed in the 2nd round by the way). In that environment, there is no point even talking about this stuff, is there?

 

[Knicks411]

there are so many teams that maybe the number doesn't move. I was surprised that our 3 pt shooting wasn't near the top - i think the improvement might be in the top 50. there are so many schools that the overall average doesn't move much

or maybe the 40th best always shoots this well and I'm just not aware (very possible, i haven't gone through all the years to find out where this year's 3 pt % would rank)

We're currently 49th at 37.9%. Last year, Baylor finished the season 49th at 37.4%. The year before, it was Maryland at 37.6. For whatever that's worth.

One thing that might be worth investigating, that I'm not going to do, is to look at this by conference or something. Presumably, ACC teams shoot better from 3 than schools in the SWAC or MEAC or whatever. Has the improvement been across the board, or are the better conferences improving more than the smaller ones?

 

[Townie72]

The math is starting to work against the strategy. There are four distinct downsides to constant zone.

1) The lack of ball pressure allows inferior teams/talent to compete and hang in there.
2) The zone can "Create Shots" for inferior to equal teams without having to do anything...a couple passes, a slow rotation, bang they have an open look without "accomplishing anything". This also helps capable but inferior teams hang around.
3) The "dagger" threes at key times...as OP originally posted, the zone works due to percentages. But those %s go out the window on a "key play". The reality is that opposing coaches know you can overload a zone and get an open look whenever you want. See Buzz Williams, Jamie Dixon, etc. You're constantly hearing on this board that opposing teams hit dagger threes with high regularity...that's because whenever they want they can overload 4-on-3 and get an open look (picture Roberson over in the far corner guarding noone). It's not something you'd do every possession, but when you need a shot it's easy. Frankly, it can be as easy as rolling up a ball-screen (we have no hedging mechanism in the zone), drawing a slide and making the extra pass.
4) We get no easy baskets from transition out of our zone. In effect we have to out-score our opponents 1.25:1.0 because they get breaks and we don't
It is irrational given the current over-coached environment to exclusively play zone 4o mins a game. I hope this changes.

What lack of ball pressure?

A zone defense ought to make transition easier, since the defenders are already up top. Versus a M2M where defenders chase guards deep.

It certainly isn't irrational because there is a significant rationale that underlies it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

By the way, I want to point out that this is the type of post that serves us zero purpose on this board. You are not making a point or engaging in a useful discussion or debate on merits. You took my post, which fully acknowledged that there are points of debate open to people who disagree with JB's philosophy and you throw a zinger about a completely unrelated coach from a different team (who got bounced in a huge upset as a 2 seed in the 2nd round by the way). In that environment, there is no point even talking about this stuff, is there?

I've defended JB's 100% use of the zone until this year. You can go back and look at years of posts I have made on this board. I'm usually very optimistic about the programs prospects, but I am more concerned than usual because we have little shooting returning(outside of Battle and he's slightly above average from the arc) and we are showing an increasing inability to defend the 3 point shot. If we can't make 3's and we can't defend them, we aren't going to be very good. That's why I'm pointing this out.

I am not trying to be sarcastic at all. I'm just sick of the excuses from the HC. Some of the Syracuse philosophies are starting to become outdated. When we switched to full time to zone in 2009 the 3 point line was moved back. Players have adjusted since then. Maybe we get a PG/SF in here who can defend and shoot next year. Maybe! I'm just sick of sitting back in the zone against the St. Johns and BC's of the worlds while they shoot over us and losing and sick of not having any shot against the UNC/Louisvilles of the world cause we can't rebound.

 

[Cusefan0307]

What lack of ball pressure?

A zone defense ought to make transition easier, since the defenders are already up top. Versus a M2M where defenders chase guards deep.

It certainly isn't irrational because there is a significant rationale that underlies it.

Why do we annually play games with some of the fewest possessions then? Why do we have on average(annually) play the longest(by time) defensive possessions in the country?

 

[Townie72]

Why do we annually play games with some of the fewest possessions then? Why do we have on average(annually) play the longest(by time) defensive possessions in the country?

That's a very good thing. It's good to make opposing teams take as much time as possible out of the 30 seconds.

It also demonstrates that they are not getting open shots early in the clock. (They are being guarded closely)

This occurs because teams have problems executing their offense against our zone defense (when it is played properly)

 

[HOFCeluck]

Pretty sure when we play good zone defense it leads to turnovers and runouts.

It wasn't THAT long ago that we were praised as a great transition team.

 

[FrancoPizza]

What lack of ball pressure?

The offensive player just has to step away from the 3 point line and they can pull out a blanket and do some yoga stretches. There is a force field that prevents our defenders from going any further. If your argument is that we actually try to put a body on them once they penetrate, well duh, I would hope we're at least making an effort there. The conventional definition of pressure defense means not giving the opponent a chance to breathe.

That's a very good thing. It's good to make opposing teams take as much time as possible out of the 30 seconds.

Have you ever considered that milking the shot clock with good ball reversal quite often leads to a breakdown in the zone rotations? It's part of the strategy to get a good shot. Coaches will also sometimes instruct teams to pass up a good opportunity early in the shot clock if they want to tire the defense out. If they can get a good look early in the shot clock, that means they often can get a good look whenever they choose.

But the worst part is also the thing that you choose to ignore -- longer possessions means fewer possessions... which reduces our margin for error and favors the team with less talent.

 

[Townie72]

The offensive player just has to step away from the 3 point line and they can pull out a blanket and take a nap. There is a force field that prevents our defenders from going any further. If your argument is that we actually try to put a body on them once they penetrate, well duh, I would hope we're at least making an effort there.


Have you ever considered that milking the shot clock with good ball reversal quite often leads to a breakdown in the zone rotations? It's part of the strategy to get a good shot. Coaches will also sometimes instruct teams to pass up a good opportunity early in the shot clock if they want to tire the defense out. If they can get a good look early in the shot clock, that means they often can get a good look whenever they choose.

But the worst part is also the thing that you choose to ignore -- longer possessions means fewer possessions... which reduces our margin for error and favors the team with less talent.

Without going into this too deeply, I disagree with each of your points.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Popcorn