My Take

[Consigliere]

People realize that this isn't pickup basketball?

This isn't like "I'm the two guard, so I HAVE TO GUARD JOE GIRARD NOW ON DEFENSE".

That isn't how any of this works and is such a fundamentally flawed way of looking at defensive strategy, it's mind boggling.

Do people really think teams are more scared of Judah or Joe?

Do people really think you need "bigger" guys on JGIII?

This is not the way D1 P5 defenses are constructed. It's lazy analysis.

Confused by this take. In a m2m defense guards defend guards and the point guard almost always guards the point unless the opponent's 2 is a lock down defender and that your point guard is your best scorer. Joe is being guarded by the guy that would have been on Buddy last year and that's generally a bigger, often more athletic player. Was certainly the case last night and against St. John's

 

[djcon57]

Joe simply doesn't have the footspeed or endless stamina to run from screen to screen. Last night he tried and was getting zero separation and he was having to work harder than the speedier defender following him.

On the flip- the tape of how to guard him on the ball is clear too. Extend the defense and hedge on the high ball screen and he can be trapped and give up his dribble quickly. His limitations are often out of his control.

I can admit when I’m wrong and take the L

I was dead wrong on Joe at the 2. he simply doesn’t have the speed (or as you said never ending stamina) at this level to play the 2.

and he doesn’t have the handle to be a PG.

Initial analysis on him was prob correct. he’d be very good as a lower level PG or a spot SG who can get hot at this level.

 

[Orangezoo]

I can admit when I’m wrong and take the L

I was dead wrong on Joe at the 2. he simply doesn’t have the speed (or as you said never ending stamina) at this level to play the 2.

and he doesn’t have the handle to be a PG.

Initial analysis on him was prob correct. he’d be very good as a lower level PG or a spot SG who get hot at this level.

I was wrong too on him honestly. So I'm right there with you.

Looking back, we had the Jalen Carey debacle and Joe was the more confident of the two frosh (Goodine) who stepped up and took the spot. Outside of that scenario not sure if he ever would become our lead guard. Had Carey been as advertised, Goodine as well- then Joe is clearly the third guard and given his desire to play probably takes advantage of the portal.

 

[orangepassion]

Waters made a good point on the radio a few minutes ago. Said that the move to the 2 sounded great in theory, but now Joe is being guarded by bigger SGs instead of relatively small PGs. Buddy could shoot over those types of players. Joe cannot

The irony is that Joe has been dying to finally play off the ball when playing PG partially blocked some of his flaws

 

[tbonezone]

the zone is a lazy man's D. we used to switch into it to protect bigs in foul trouble cuz basically it's just standing around with your hands up. no accountability. and with today's shooters it's target practice . JB can't shed it becuz it's part of his legacy now.
but truly both have outlived their usefulness and it's time to retire them.

 

[Manleymen]

Some fans here have watched the zone too long

Hahaha, I'm from Lyons and actually watched the 2 3 zone when Boeheim was in HS. Way too long.

 

[SWC75]

Pretty scathing takes on the current state of the program from Fraschilla, including telling Syracuse fans that based on what he sees on the court, it will not be getting any better than last year. I was also surprised he shared that JB apparently told him the night before at dinner that if he was 50 right now, he'd go to the NBA. To me, that tells you all you need to know about JB's appetite for recruiting at this point of his career.

If he doesn't like coaching in college anymore - why is he doing it? What is his goal at this point?

 

[MikeSU02]

Confused by this take. In a m2m defense guards defend guards and the point guard almost always guards the point unless the opponent's 2 is a lock down defender and that your point guard is your best scorer. Joe is being guarded by the guy that would have been on Buddy last year and that's generally a bigger, often more athletic player. Was certainly the case last night and against St. John's

In M2M defenses, defensive assignments are for players to initially guard the primary offensive player they are assigned and then action off the strategy for switching, fighting over/under screens, dropping, blitzing, hedging, etc that gives the defense the best chance to succeed.

This is like last year where every game it was stated that Buddy had some Kawhi-esque defender that was only focused on him and Buddy slayed them all.

Do you think Steph and Klay are guarding the lead ball handler and wing, respectively, all the time? Of course not. Klay was one of the best on-ball defenders before his injuries. So Klay would be the stopping point for the most dynamic wing or lead guard that was best for their defense.

Joe is a career 36% field goal shooter. 32% inside the arc. 36% from three. No team is scared of him.

 

[MikeSU02]

I can admit when I’m wrong and take the L

I was dead wrong on Joe at the 2. he simply doesn’t have the speed (or as you said never ending stamina) at this level to play the 2.

and he doesn’t have the handle to be a PG.

Initial analysis on him was prob correct. he’d be very good as a lower level PG or a spot SG who can get hot at this level.

Same. Thought he'd do better at the 2. I would transition to JT with Joe's minutes reducing and based on how his 3pt shooting is.

 

[SWC75]

i'm not gonna write off joe yet. he has to figure out his new role. and that's not jacking up 20 shots.with proper guard rotation he should have enuf legs to at least make an effort on D. he still is an outside threat and has enuf handle to bring the ball up court. pass more and shoot less. and be a vocal leader.

Mike Waters, in an interview of Orange Nation, said that Mintz has to look for his teammates and Torrence no longer looks to penetrate. Those things would have big impact on a 2 guard. I expected Joe to receive a lot of passes from guys who had penetrated and made the defense come to them and then passed it back out to an open Joe at the three-point line. Joe was 8 for 13 from two vs. Richmond. Maybe he needs to look for open shots wherever they are, not just outside the arc.

 

[djcon57]

Mike Waters, in an interview of Orange Nation, said that Mintz has to look for his teammates and Torrence no longer looks to penetrate. Those things would have big impact on a 2 guard. I expected Joe to receive a lot of passes from guys who had penetrated and made the defense come to them and then passed it back out to an open Joe at the three-point line. Joe was 8 for 13 from two vs. Richmond. Maybe he needs to look for open shots wherever they are, not just outside the arc.

*cue Millhouse to post Joe's percentage from 2 for his career*

 

[OrangeDW]

What are these "so-called" alternatives?

We can't make a trade with another school. We can't pick up a SG off the free agent wire and sign him to a 10 day contract.

Your only options are Taylor and Copeland.

Taylor played 23 minutes last night, and made two baskets. Which is 3 more minutes than Joe got.

Maybe change is coming. I can see Joe getting a quick hook, and Taylor being the 1st guy off the bench.

Now?
Or back in 2020-21?

 

[MikeSU02]

In M2M defenses, defensive assignments are for players to initially guard the primary offensive player they are assigned and then action off the strategy for switching, fighting over/under screens, dropping, blitzing, hedging, etc that gives the defense the best chance to succeed.

This is like last year where every game it was stated that Buddy had some Kawhi-esque defender that was only focused on him and Buddy slayed them all.

Do you think Steph and Klay are guarding the lead ball handler and wing, respectively, all the time? Of course not. Klay was one of the best on-ball defenders before his injuries. So Klay would be the stopping point for the most dynamic wing or lead guard that was best for their defense.

Joe is a career 36% field goal shooter. 32% inside the arc. 36% from three. No team is scared of him.

Consigliere btw, I'm not trying to snap at you, I just mean that it's a systemic approach and that Joe won't need a Marcus Smart-type guy to shut him down.

And to put it on Judah, teams are now anticipating his drive and getting the secondary defender, for example, over more quickly and he's not seeing it. This isn't just Joe. Judah doesn't have that next step to mitigate it (using a pull up, a better floater, cross court pass maybe).

And for Jesse, as another example, they know if they bully Jesse on his initial positioning, he'll get frustrated and throw elbows and maybe get called for the offensive foul.

I'm just super frustrated with it all.

 

[grepal]

Gotta be brief but I will jot down a few things...

Yes, it was a disaster. 15 baskets in a game? Wow.

That said, our defense is vastly improved this season. If we were just average on offense, we would have been right in this game until the end. The kids are way more athletic, engaged and they play hard possession after possession. They fight through screens and for the most part, do a good job maintaining focus. Huge improvement over last season. If you can play defense, you should be able to have a chance to win most games.

There is a lot of film out on Judah and teams have made adjustments. They are over playing the drive, looking to pick up charges, over playing his right hand side, and bodying him up/playing him physical.

Judah is a different player when played this way. I think he will make adjustments. He missed the chance to against Bryant. I think he made some progress in the second half against Illinois but he has a lot of work to do here. I think he will get there but it is going to take time. It is a big leap from HS to college, especially for a PG who is being asked to be the focal point of the offense from day one.

Jesse is doing a phenomenal job rebounding. Far beyond what I thought he was capable of. Thought he did a good job avoiding fouls too today. It is tough to rebound hard and not pick up a bunch of fouls, but he did it. His defense was really good as well. He scared the crap out of the Illinois players in the paint and forced them to focus on attacking us from the outside.

We are trying to feature him on offense and doing a lot better job getting him the ball. Props mostly to Judah for that. Benny is doing well here most of the time too. But Jesse is not doing a great job finishing. Lots of shots when spinning away from the basket, way off balance. He takes too much time, doesn't feel the defender well and takes too many charges. And he misses too many bunnies...ranging from layups to open 4 foot jumpers. Just seems to be playing a bit too tight.

But most of all, he needs to develop a go to move. Hope it comes together for him soon because I don't see anyone else stepping up to help much on offense.

JGIII strikes me as a guy who has overachieved greatly in his career, largely fueled by great self confidence and confidence from his coach.

That confidence is gone now and so is his game. Not how you want your senior to lead. I hope he gets his act together. Things are coming to a point where if he doesn't turn it around fast, he might stop getting playing time. This is a seminal moment in Joe's career at Syracuse. I hope he finds his way out of this. I don't blame JB. He has shown a lot of patience and confidence in Joe to date. It is a sad situation.

I think Joe knows he will miss before he lets the ball go. As a high school player I had a very good jump shot but there was a point my junior year where I went through what he is going through. One of our assistants sat me down and got me out of my head and I was fine. granted a vastly different level but the principle is the same. Now he is guarded by the kind of player who guarded Buddy the last couple of years but he is not as big as Buddy and cant get his shot off in the paint the way Buddy could. Im just not sure if he will fix this

 

[orangepassion]

If he doesn't like coaching in college anymore - why is he doing it? What is his goal at this point?

Great question for the Jim Boeheim show : )

 

[FrancoPizza]

If he doesn't like coaching in college anymore - why is he doing it? What is his goal at this point?

Because he doesn't know anything else. But that shouldn't be our problem or Syracuse University's problem.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

If he doesn't like coaching in college anymore - why is he doing it? What is his goal at this point?

Glory. just like the washed up athlete who can’t play anymore, doesn’t even really love the game , but sees the gig as his identity and not a job, and thus doesn’t know how to quit it.

 

[RF2044]

Joe was never the focal point of the offense before. His first 3 years he was on teams where the defense focused heavily on stopping other players. This year he's the focal point and the guy other teams gear to stop. And it's not hard to stop a 6'1 guard who can only catch and shoot and is terrible at putting the ball on the floor. He's no threat to drive so it's relatively easy to just get in his grill and deny his shot or force him further and further out to take bad shots which is why his percentage is so poor. That's what we're seeing.

...which is why many expressed that constructing the offense around him was not feasible. It might work against a portion of the OOC schedule, but not against most P5 caliber opponents.

For all of the reasons you outline.

 

[RF2044]

I was wrong too on him honestly. So I'm right there with you.

Looking back, we had the Jalen Carey debacle and Joe was the more confident of the two frosh (Goodine) who stepped up and took the spot. Outside of that scenario not sure if he ever would become our lead guard. Had Carey been as advertised, Goodine as well- then Joe is clearly the third guard and given his desire to play probably takes advantage of the portal.

You're bringing up some important context here.

The year we recruited Girard was Battle's final year. We had extremely limited depth [especially after Frank got injured], and virtually no bench scoring. We had talent [Battle, Brissette, Hughes, Buddy] but games were typically rock fights, and we had NO scoring outside of the main guys. If anyone was "off" any given night, there was nobody to turn to.

Joe was a 50 ppg scorer who was also touted as a deadeye shooter. I don't think that even when he committed, anyone viewed him as a multi-year [let alone 4 year] starter -- but I do think he was viewed as a guy who might be able to provide a consistent dose of bench scoring and outside shooting. Kind of like how Spike Albrecht was for Michigan -- a microwave caliber scorer, and spot starter. In other words, exactly the type of bench performer that the preceding, Battle-led team lacked.

But then Battle departed after his junior year, and Frank got suspended and ran out of eligibility. The reins were handed to Carey, but he was a big recruiting "miss." Carey lost his starting job 3 or 4 games into the season, because Joe at least could put the ball in the basket. Neither one of them could dribble down their chins.

Carey went on to be a bust [relative to his recruiting ranking] even at a lower conference level, and Joe went on to be a four-year starter.

The one recruit JB brought in to challenge Joe played better than him during significant portions of games two years ago, but transferred out when it became clear that Joe enjoyed favored status.

We brought players in this year [Joe's senior campaign], but most of them don't seem as equipped to play extended minutes yet.

Very strange four years, in no small part due to Joe's controversial career / capabilities.

 

[Orangezoo]

You're bringing up some important context here.

The year we recruited Girard was Battle's final year. We had extremely limited depth [especially after Frank got injured], and virtually no bench scoring.

Joe was a 50 ppg scorer who was also touted as a deadeye shooter. I don't think that even when he committed, anyone viewed him as a multi-year [let alone 4 year] starter -- but I do think he was viewed as a guy who might be able to provide a consistent dose of bench scoring and outside shooting. Kind of like how Spike Albrecht was for Michigan -- a microwave caliber scorer, and spot starter. In other words, exactly the type of bench performer that the Battle team lacked.

But then Battle departed after his junior year, and Frank got suspended and ran out of eligibility. The reins were handed to Carey, but he was a big recruiting "miss." Carey lost his starting job 3 or 4 games into the season, because Joe at least could put the ball in the basket. Neither one of them could dribble down their chins.

Carey went on to be a bust [relative to his recruiting ranking] even at a lower conference level, and Joe went on to be a four-year starter.

The one recruit JB brought in to challenge Joe played better than him during significant portions of games two years ago, but transferred out when it became clear that Joe enjoyed favored status.

We brought players in this year [Joe's senior campaign], but most of them don't seem as equipped to play extended minutes yet.

Very strange four years, in no small part due to Joe's controversial career / capabilities.

Yessir

 

[OrangeDW]

You're bringing up some important context here.

The year we recruited Girard was Battle's final year. We had extremely limited depth [especially after Frank got injured], and virtually no bench scoring.

Joe was a 50 ppg scorer who was also touted as a deadeye shooter. I don't think that even when he committed, anyone viewed him as a multi-year [let alone 4 year] starter -- but I do think he was viewed as a guy who might be able to provide a consistent dose of bench scoring and outside shooting. Kind of like how Spike Albrecht was for Michigan -- a microwave caliber scorer, and spot starter. In other words, exactly the type of bench performer that the Battle team lacked.

But then Battle departed after his junior year, and Frank got suspended and ran out of eligibility. The reins were handed to Carey, but he was a big recruiting "miss." Carey lost his starting job 3 or 4 games into the season, because Joe at least could put the ball in the basket. Neither one of them could dribble down their chins.

Carey went on to be a bust [relative to his recruiting ranking] even at a lower conference level, and Joe went on to be a four-year starter.

The one recruit JB brought in to challenge Joe played better than him during significant portions of games two years ago, but transferred out when it became clear that Joe enjoyed favored status.

We brought players in this year [Joe's senior campaign], but most of them don't seem as equipped to play extended minutes yet.

Very strange four years, in no small part due to Joe's controversial career / capabilities.

Truly amazing that we had the golden chance to get Joe in the correct role 2 years ago, and blew it. And for what?

 

[Millhouse]

*cue Millhouse to post Joe's percentage from 2 for his career*

Our expectations for what is normal from a two guard is so messed up because we are so used to it. I posted that nonsense Cooney a hundred times too.

I have most of the same criticism of boeheim that everyone else does. I just have a soft spot and a long leash for a guy who has made winter fun my whole life

 

[djcon57]

Our expectations for what is normal from a two guard is so messed up because we are so used to it. I posted that nonsense Cooney a hundred times too.

I have most of the same criticism of boeheim that everyone else does. I just have a soft spot and a long leash for a guy who has made winter fun my whole life

yeah nothing about JB there...just he mentioned Joe should shoot more from 2 and you've been clear with the stats posted that if anything he shouldn't take 2s at all.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Consigliere btw, I'm not trying to snap at you, I just mean that it's a systemic approach and that Joe won't need a Marcus Smart-type guy to shut him down.

And to put it on Judah, teams are now anticipating his drive and getting the secondary defender, for example, over more quickly and he's not seeing it. This isn't just Joe. Judah doesn't have that next step to mitigate it (using a pull up, a better floater, cross court pass maybe).

And for Jesse, as another example, they know if they bully Jesse on his initial positioning, he'll get frustrated and throw elbows and maybe get called for the offensive foul.

I'm just super frustrated with it all.

Yeah, the thought that Joe gets these elite defenders is funny to me. It might LOOK like that, because Joe is simply overmatched physically at this level from a size, strength, and speed perspective. And it does not help that we don't seem to run consistent off-ball movement on offense. Because of that, we see Joe often just standing there, with a guy next to him, i.e. defense. And when he has the ball, the overall limitations make it so much harder to do anything, again because the other team is playing defense. None of this is too surprising. All things considered, honestly, it's a testament to his overall ability (relative to those limitations) that's he's had the success (don't take that word as meaning efficient, it's used as a relative word here) he's had to this point.

I'm honestly about Joe's size, a little shorter. I've played a lot of bball in my life, and nowhere near the level of, or to the ability of Joe. But I've been guarded by guys that are simply way out of my league from an athleticism standpoint where I don't stand much chance trying to create anything on my own with the ball. I am also doing it at an LA Fitness or in Archbold gym, not in P5 arenas.

All in all, hopefully he can get back to getting some 3s to fall. That's clearly where the strength lies. It's been tough watching the last 3 games. Can't imagine being in his shoes.

 

[Consigliere]

Consigliere btw, I'm not trying to snap at you, I just mean that it's a systemic approach and that Joe won't need a Marcus Smart-type guy to shut him down.

And to put it on Judah, teams are now anticipating his drive and getting the secondary defender, for example, over more quickly and he's not seeing it. This isn't just Joe. Judah doesn't have that next step to mitigate it (using a pull up, a better floater, cross court pass maybe).

And for Jesse, as another example, they know if they bully Jesse on his initial positioning, he'll get frustrated and throw elbows and maybe get called for the offensive foul.

I'm just super frustrated with it all.

Not taking it as snapping at all and I appreciate the analysis. I do think there is some validity in Waters point though, if not in terms of primary defender, the fact that Joe is the only reliable perimeter threat on the team this year certainly demands heightened attention from the defense and we saw St. John's put a 6'4" 230 lb lock down defender on him and completely shut him down.

Judah has to play much smarter, recognize the double teams and pass out of it to the open man. Too often he leaves his feet first, then tries to figure out what to do next and ends up flipping a wild shot toward the basket. Yes, he should have finished two or three more last night, but the bulk of his misses at the rim didn't have a prayer.

And agree completely on Jesse. Not sure if I ever saw a player of his talent commit more soft fouls. He is clearly bothered by physical play and doesn't have the body to counter that physicality.