new kicks

[MCC]

They absolutely DO prevent ankle injuries. Doesn't mean that they are a foolproof solution, but it is ridiculous to claim that they don't afford more protection than low tops, or that they don't reduce the likelihood [i.e., "prevent"] ankle sprains.

There is no evidence that 'high tops' either prevent sprains or minimize severity of sprains - this has actually been studied fairly extensively and the literature / data are inconclusive. If anything, the data to point to a combination of 'low tops' plus taping as marginally more effective at prevention and minimizing severity. A few prospective, randomized (albeit small N) trials have been run and reported in the literature, and I can pull down the references and screen-cap some data if you like.

It appears that for some reason, high shoe collars have proprioceptive effects that decrease pre-landing activation of the peroneus longus (PL), peroneus brevis (PB) and tibialis anterior (TA). These decreases seem to leave the ankle complex less prepared to deal with landing events, particularly those on uneven surfaces. Obviously this is counterintuitive: you'd expect the higher collar to reduce ROM, especially in the lateral aspect. However, the decrease in pre-activation - mean amplitude, which can be measured accurately and reproducibly by EMG - more than washes out any potential gains in structural stability.

Worse still, the onset time for pre-activation for the PL, PB and TA are also observably delayed. Thus you're left with a 'too little, too late' muscle-tendon response from the evertors (complex that turns your foot 'out', and would thus resist a lateral sprain).

The role of pre-landing EMG (EMGpre) activity is obviously critical to preparing the ankle complex for a rapid and potentially high-force stretch upon foot contact and through the subsequent joint rotations, and the current literature suggest that a low(-er) collar combined with taping preserves more EMGpre (both amplitude and rapidity of response) than high collars.

I'm sure the SOC experts know all this; thus the fairly common use of low(-er) tops in hoops (and elsewhere). Hope this helps clarify, and I can always pull down some references / data for interested parties.

 

[chugg21]

i missed the trend change cause i dont play much anymore but when did the kids go form high tops back to the low/mids?

I'd say the Kobe's started it and now most of the KD's are low as well.

 

[orange79]

I'm watching this at work so can't get sound - don't ask - but the exuberance and fun these guys are having made me laugh out loud. Especially when they were doing shoe telephone. I can't wait to go home and watch it again with sound.

After today I will only have 5 more work days. Sad, weird, a lot of loss, also good, I think. So many of my clients are SU fans and we have had so much fun (and depression!) over the years together. I will miss that.

Congrats! CTO always says, "Retirement - I highly recommend it."

 

[cuse2013]

Maybe someone here who is a shoe afficianado can tell me, at :38 second mark they show a close up of the two little orange tags that say ORANGE NATION and 4 orange caps. What exactly are those? I'm sure they're something to add flair to the shoes.

They are caps for the ends of the shoelace

 

[OrangeDW]

i missed the trend change cause i dont play much anymore but when did the kids go form high tops back to the low/mids?

The Nike Kobe line found an identity with lows about 5 or so years ago. KD's line has followed suit.

 

[OrangeDW]

Do high tops really give any more support? It's not like they are as stiff or tied tight like hockey skates.

There is a line of thinking out there(increasingly more popular) that it's all about the support and lockdown of the shoe, as well as whether it "tips"(stand still and try to tip your shoe to the side...how stable it is depends on how easily it tips) If your foot isn't slipping or moving or tipping, then your ankle isn't rolling. That little material on a high top isn't stopping anything, anyway. At that point, if it's going to roll, it's going to roll.

Now I should say personally, I've always felt comfortable in mids...have never been brave enough to play in lows, and have always felt like I'm wearing flimsy boots for no reason in highs.

 

[OrangeDW]

Also, I feel like Jimmy should've been singing this...

 

[Flacusian]

I'm watching this at work so can't get sound - don't ask - but the exuberance and fun these guys are having made me laugh out loud. Especially when they were doing shoe telephone. I can't wait to go home and watch it again with sound.

After today I will only have 5 more work days. Sad, weird, a lot of loss, also good, I think. So many of my clients are SU fans and we have had so much fun (and depression!) over the years together. I will miss that.

Congrats on your retirement! Just turned 60 and can't even imagine being able to get to the point of retirement. Still have a 9 year old in the house so... well just do the math! So, my friend you are truly blessed and I'm sure you will find ways to fill in the void that is left from where work was! Enjoy, I'm sure you've earned it. I'm hoping you can kick off your retirement as you watch the Orange complete a miracle run to another Natty Title~!

 

[bballbeadle]

Congrats on your retirement! Just turned 60 and can't even imagine being able to get to the point of retirement. Still have a 9 year old in the house so... well just do the math! So, my friend you are truly blessed and I'm sure you will find ways to fill in the void that is left from where work was! Enjoy, I'm sure you've earned it. I'm hoping you can kick off your retirement as you watch the Orange complete a miracle run to another Natty Title~!

Me, too! Me, too! And thanks. So much of my identity has been Therapist, but now I guess it'll just have to be Cuse Fan and Resident of Planet Earth.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Also, I feel like Jimmy should've been singing this...

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

 

[Brooky03]

They absolutely DO prevent ankle injuries. Doesn't mean that they are a foolproof solution, but it is ridiculous to claim that they don't afford more protection than low tops, or that they don't reduce the likelihood [i.e., "prevent"] ankle sprains.

Edit: Nevermind, MCC seems to have covered this pretty well.

 

[RF2044]

There is no evidence that 'high tops' either prevent sprains or minimize severity of sprains - this has actually been studied fairly extensively and the literature / data are inconclusive. If anything, the data to point to a combination of 'low tops' plus taping as marginally more effective at prevention and minimizing severity. A few prospective, randomized (albeit small N) trials have been run and reported in the literature, and I can pull down the references and screen-cap some data if you like.

It appears that for some reason, high shoe collars have proprioceptive effects that decrease pre-landing activation of the peroneus longus (PL), peroneus brevis (PB) and tibialis anterior (TA). These decreases seem to leave the ankle complex less prepared to deal with landing events, particularly those on uneven surfaces. Obviously this is counterintuitive: you'd expect the higher collar to reduce ROM, especially in the lateral aspect. However, the decrease in pre-activation - mean amplitude, which can be measured accurately and reproducibly by EMG - more than washes out any potential gains in structural stability.

Worse still, the onset time for pre-activation for the PL, PB and TA are also observably delayed. Thus you're left with a 'too little, too late' muscle-tendon response from the evertors (complex that turns your foot 'out', and would thus resist a lateral sprain).

The role of pre-landing EMG (EMGpre) activity is obviously critical to preparing the ankle complex for a rapid and potentially high-force stretch upon foot contact and through the subsequent joint rotations, and the current literature suggest that a low(-er) collar combined with taping preserves more EMGpre (both amplitude and rapidity of response) than high collars.

I'm sure the SOC experts know all this; thus the fairly common use of low(-er) tops in hoops (and elsewhere). Hope this helps clarify, and I can always pull down some references / data for interested parties.

MCC--first of all, thank you for crafting such an informative post. The medical data provided is insightful.

I will say, however, that you touched on two points that really were not what I was saying. First of all, I am not taking the position that wearing high tops is good or bad for long term joint ability to handle stressors, which feels a lot like the debate about whether it is good for offensive linemen to wear knee braces--which might prevent injuries from happening, but which has the potentially negative effect of mitigating stress on the soft knee tissues, which prevents them from being naturally stronger, which might make them more susceptible to injury down the road.

Nor was I taking the position that wearing high tops with no tape is qualitatively better in terms of avoiding ankle injuries than tape and low tops. Having ankles professionally taped is the best way to stabilize and avoid injury, no matter what kind of shoes are worn.

I'm actually quite surprised to hear that the medical evidence is inconclusive about high tops preventing ankle sprains. Logic, experience, and empirical evidence suggest otherwise, at least to me [and apparently to others who've responded to this thread, as well]. I can't even count the number of times I rolled my ankle back in my playing days, but was able to recover quickly and avoid a worse injury or sprain due to the additional support wearing high tops provided.

 

[NineOneSeven]

On the topic of ankles-
I sprained my right ankle December of 2013 extremely badly (was wearing high tops, but they were old). Playing ball with friends around the holidays (Manlius, NY for those familiar). We had one guy who we almost never played with, and that is whose foot I landed on. Freak accident, but you cannot convince me that he wasn't standing in a spot where most people wouldn't be (he doesn't play much basketball). At the time I knew it was bad (crazy swelling, could put zero weight on it for a bit), but no idea just how bad. Stubbornness, ignorance, improper rehab, severity of the injury, and the fact I had injured that ankle before (albeit not nearly as badly), and here I am, almost 2.5 years later still dealing with it. Some days are worse than others (today being one of them, hence this rant ), and it's frustrating. I guess I would call it chronic pain. I've actually been able to work back a decent amount of mobility compared to where I was a year ago when I could barely squat down 6 inches due to lost dorsiflexion. For someone who likes to lift weights and be active, very discouraging.

I did get an x-ray about 10 days after the initial sprain in January of 2014 at an urgent care, and it showed no fracture. Looking back, I wish it was a fracture. I also got another x-ray in 2015 from a specialist just to confirm. Still no sign of a fracture. I imagine an MRI is what really will show me what I'm looking for, but hard to justify the point/cost at this point. I went to a few physical therapy sessions in fall of 2014 (probably way too late, but again, I wasn't prepared for how bad I actually injured it), and while that did help, it was insanely expensive. In fall of 2015 I got some active release therapy done which definitely helped break down scar tissues for sure, but it seems those are more short term solutions. The ankle is a very complicated joint with a lot of ligaments and structures involved, so it's very hard to determine exactly what is going on, especially since the entire kinetic chain can be involved. I thought impingement could be a big factor, or bone spurs, but wouldn't x-rays pick that up? Doctor said it is all soft tissue related. I've done a lot of joint mobilizations, foam rolling/lacrosse ball rolling my calves, voodoo wrapping, stretching my achilles, rolling my tibilias anterior etc, but literally every day it's hard not to constantly be thinking about it or noticing it. I really seem to notice pain when I sit on my knees and then sit back onto my feet, forcing plantarflexion. That is very difficult and painful (not to mention, shows how tight my quads get). Pain seems to also be on the medial side, almost at the lower shin region most of the time, and can be noticed when I try to twist my foot away from me and force dorsiflexion/plantarflexion. Some days much more noticeable than others. Simply walking, there is not any pain usually.

It's strange, I almost wish I had sprained both of my ankles. Having one constantly stiff just makes the entire body feel non-symmetrical, and I am fairly certain this has been a big reason for other injuries the last couple of years.

Good times indeed!

 

[AZOrange]

On the topic of ankles- I sprained my right ankle December of 2013 extremely badly (was wearing high tops, but they were old). Playing ball with friends around the holidays (Manlius, NY for those familiar). We had one guy who we almost never played with, and that is whose foot I landed on. Freak accident, but you cannot convince me that he wasn't standing in a spot where most people wouldn't be (he doesn't play much basketball). At the time I knew it was bad (crazy swelling, could put zero weight on it for a bit), but no idea just how bad. Stubbornness, ignorance, improper rehab, severity of the injury, and the fact I had injured that ankle before (albeit not nearly as badly), and here I am, almost 2.5 years later still dealing with it. Some days are worse than others (today being one of them, hence this rant ), and it's frustrating. I guess I would call it chronic pain. I've actually been able to work back a decent amount of mobility compared to where I was a year ago when I could barely squat down 6 inches due to lost dorsiflexion. For someone who likes to lift weights and be active, very discouraging. I did get an x-ray about 10 days after the initial sprain in January of 2014 at an urgent care, and it showed no fracture. Looking back, I wish it was a fracture. I also got another x-ray in 2015 from a specialist just to confirm. Still no sign of a fracture. I imagine an MRI is what really will show me what I'm looking for, but hard to justify the point/cost at this point. I went to a few physical therapy sessions in fall of 2014 (probably way too late, but again, I wasn't prepared for how bad I actually injured it), and while that did help, it was insanely expensive. In fall of 2015 I got some active release therapy done which definitely helped break down scar tissues for sure, but it seems those are more short term solutions. The ankle is a very complicated joint with a lot of ligaments and structures involved, so it's very hard to determine exactly what is going on, especially since the entire kinetic chain can be involved. I thought impingement could be a big factor, or bone spurs, but wouldn't x-rays pick that up? Doctor said it is all soft tissue related. I've done a lot of joint mobilizations, foam rolling/lacrosse ball rolling my calves, voodoo wrapping, stretching my achilles, rolling my tibilias anterior etc, but literally every day it's hard not to constantly be thinking about it or noticing it. I really seem to notice pain when I sit on my knees and then sit back onto my feet, forcing plantarflexion. That is very difficult and painful (not to mention, shows how tight my quads get). Pain seems to also be on the medial side, almost at the lower shin region most of the time, and can be noticed when I try to twist my foot away from me and force dorsiflexion/plantarflexion. Some days much more noticeable than others. Simply walking, there is not any pain usually. It's strange, I almost wish I had sprained both of my ankles. Having one constantly stiff just makes the entire body feel non-symmetrical, and I am fairly certain this has been a big reason for other injuries the last couple of years. Good times indeed!

Dude spend the money and go see a speicalist.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Dude spend the money and go see a speicalist.

I thought I already did that last fall! Unless I don't know what a specialist is... That's an Orthopedist yeah? The guy also specialized in ankle area if I recall. Got the x Rays but said main issue is soft tissue/scar tissue.

 

[NineOneSeven]

MCC you an ankle specialist

 

[br801]

Old kicks

 

[CusefanATL]

Congrats on your retirement! Just turned 60 and can't even imagine being able to get to the point of retirement. Still have a 9 year old in the house so... well just do the math! So, my friend you are truly blessed and I'm sure you will find ways to fill in the void that is left from where work was! Enjoy, I'm sure you've earned it. I'm hoping you can kick off your retirement as you watch the Orange complete a miracle run to another Natty Title~!

oh man!! the 9 year old must keep you on your toes