NLRB Dartmouth ruling

[jgeorge322]

And get ready for Non-compete agreements.

good luck with enforcing those... they certainly won't be enforceable if a player transfers to a school in a different state

 

[HRE Otto IV]

if you are getting 2500 for a 4-5 bedroom thats a steal.. my kids 3 bd room in Roch is almost 3k

1. I would expect that the universities would covert the athletic dorms into apartments and give the players a discount. That way they can keep an eye on them.

2. Just doing a quick google search this place seems pretty nice and would be affordable. Certainly less than $50k a year each.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

i said 50k.. because that is roughly the cost to live in the dorm and go to school and eat 50-75k or more.

But they can't have it both ways. Either they are a student or they are an employee.

Let's say at a big school the total compensation package is $100k per player. They can choose to be a unionized employee and get paid $100k but have to find their own housing, or they can be a non unionized student and get paid a $25k stipend, while getting tuition, housing, food, etc. An employee can still take classes at the employee discounted rate but it isn't free.

Either way it is $100k cost for the school. So nothing really changes for the school.

A student getting a full ride isn't taxable. An employee getting one, would be. If you gave them everything free they would need to be taxed on $175k income not $100k.

 

[David321]

But they can't have it both ways. Either they are a student or they are an employee.

Let's say at a big school the total compensation package is $100k per player. They can choose to be a unionized employee and get paid $100k but have to find their own housing, or they can be a non unionized student and get paid a $25k stipend, while getting tuition, housing, food, etc. An employee can still take classes at the employee discounted rate but it isn't free.

Either way it is $100k cost for the school. So nothing really changes for the school.

A student getting a full ride isn't taxable. An employee getting one, would be. If you gave them everything free they would need to be taxed on $175k income not $100k.

I work at a college and the RA’s recently unionized. You can absolutely be a student, a unionized employee, and live on campus all at the same time.

 

[tep624]

I suspect we’re starting to head into the end game now and long term this will result in less scholarship opportunities overall.

 

[dollarbill44]

O'Bannon case "could put NCAA out of business..."

This Forbes article by David Lariviere (a Syracuse grad) is very interesting...

syracusefan.com

Interesting thread from 11 years ago. Same suspects, same arguments.

Again...11 years ago. Amazingly college sports is still here and so are we.

But, it has progressed so much more towards full-on pay for players in a free-agent environment. I can't figure out how the B1G , SEC and the tag-alongs can move forward with multiple sports in a pro league and still keep them under the university umbrella. There has to be a split up of sports because the football players probably aren't going to want to share with the basketball players.

There will also be issues with title 9 unless the revenue sports will are spun off from the education system to be completely separate. So then you have purely pro leagues that are a step below the current pro leagues (NFL and NBA). How long does that keep sports fans' attention? I know I'm not going to watch on TV. I might go to a local game in person, like I would a Syracuse Mets game, but how many national tv viewers do minor leagues get in baseball, hockey and basketball?

I don't see this benefitting too many people in the long run.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I work at a college and the RA’s recently unionized. You can absolutely be a student, a unionized employee, and live on campus all at the same time.

Not what I meant, and I am only talking P4 type programs here. Are the RAs getting a full ride to be RAs? A BBall player can be a student, an employee, and live on campus but they shouldn't get a full ride to do so. They are already getting compensated for playing BBall, they shouldn't get paid twice.

Currently they are being compensated with NIL, the cost of an education, the cost of housing, and the cost of feeding them. If the school is forced to pay X% of BBall revenue to the players, that shouldn't be in addition to the prior compensation. The net cost for the school should be close to even.

The coaches aren't going to want the players to be students in season. Academics get in the way. Academics also puts a restriction on who can get onto and stay on the team. No one wants a Fab Melo situation. That now is a non factor. So the cost of an education likely goes away for most P4 BBall players, which leaves non academic costs.

The rest of the costs are part of the player's compensation and are taxable to the employee (player). That is going to be part of the bargaining. There is no reason for the schools to give that away for free. So if the negotiated total compensation is $X per year, part of that will be the non academic costs.

For example if the total compensation is $150k, they aren't getting $150k and free housing, food, etc. They will be getting something like $105k and $45k, the cost of everything.

Also as employees these kids will be have to pay taxes on that free stuff, where as students they do not. So if they are making $75k as students, they net around $53k. If they are making $105k as employees, they net around $60k. Isn't it worth $7k a year to get an education?


Edit

Again the above is for schools like Kentucky. For a school like Dartmouth none of the above will apply. They will still require the BBall players to be full time students. How much revenue does Dartmouth make for men's BBall in a given year? Maybe $1M? So the players will get around $25k a year now as employees. Does Dartmouth still give the players full financial assistance to attend school? Or do they reduce it somewhat to offset the added cost?

 

[elimunelson]

And worker's comp, disability insurance, collective bargaining agreements, grievances, and maybe educational benefits taxed as income ... careful what you wish for.

It’ll be contractual cba agreements. That will be collectively bargained. The Ivy will prob create interesting bargained laws where kids can only play 4 years, gpa minimums for raises, etc

Net net this is a good end game. It also will bounce into title 9 and prob limit Ivy sports programs to like 10 if they are employees

 

[kcsu]

if you are getting 2500 for a 4-5 bedroom thats a steal.. my kids 3 bd room in Roch is almost 3k

Not sure where you rent but try finding a house close to any major school for less than 1k a room.

 

[donniesyracuse]

They are already getting compensated for playing BBall, they shouldn't get paid twice.

They should be compensated however the market dictates.

 

[SURules]

Do we have to put our Australian girls basketball players on employment visas now? They aren’t students based upon this ruling.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

They should be compensated however the market dictates.

Right. I am not arguing against that. There will be a CBA. Part of the total comp will be room and board. The schools won’t say you are worth X but on top of that out of the goodness of our heart you get free stuff too.

 

[MadNY3]

I could see the Ivy’s and some smaller schools eliminate most if not all their sports programs.
This ruling might actually get congress to finally step in and take action.
If they are employees would there be contracts? No more immediate transfer without breach of the employment contract.

The alums would go nuts.

Dartmouth tried cutting some of its smaller sports during Covid. A mutiny erupted that threatened donations. Most sports re-instituted.

 

[MamesJungro]

Unions were the result of economic maltreatment of workers. This is a logical step. NFL & NBA unions could step in. Wait until the kids owe income taxes.
Likely sets stage for SCOTUS review, given prior opposite finding, if memory serves.

I assume they owe income taxes from NIL?

 

[texascpa]

I assume they owe income taxes from NIL?

Most definitely.

 

[donniesyracuse]

The schools won’t say you are worth X but on top of that out of the goodness of our heart you get free stuff too.

Are people arguing they should do anything out of the goodness of their hearts?

 

[donniesyracuse]

Most definitely.

And look at all of those stories this month about athletes being shocked by this development.

 

[upperdeck]

The issue will also be will there have to be a union for each sport to make it work? You would think so.

What happens in the case of a sport that is self funded.. The school is paying nothing now to support that team and there are many across the country. So those kids join a union and the school has to pay them?

its a crazy bag of worms for sure.. Do schools negotiate with a union or all the schools as one like MLB/NBA does? They want a level playing field which means going to congress and getting a deal like the pros do to allow the limited collusion rules they have?

 

[SUDadx2]

How much is an SU off campus house rental, $2500/m for a 4-5 bedroom? That is $500-$625 per kid. That is far from $50k a year.

Double that.

Two bedroom apartment, $1700 mo.
Five bedroom house, $1100 mo.

Real numbers. The apartment doesn’t including electricity or parking. The house has one covered parking space and doesn’t include electricity or internet.

 

[Hoo's That]

This would change things. Create SEC and Big players unions and each league to share ~40% with the players. Suddenly Presidents, Chancellors and ADs are like "Wait wut"?

Full Stop.

While the wild speculation about haves and have-nots was semi-interesting (and quite imaginative), this ruling would only affect Vanderbilt and Northwestern as the only private schools in those conferences. The NLRB has no jurisdiction WRT state governments. The law specifically exempts state, tribal, and local governments from being required to participate in collective bargaining. So, with all the state schools not unionized things continue to progress gradually from where they are now. Private schools will have some decisions to make.

 

[upperdeck]

SO why do state colleges bargain with Unions then?

 

[DPCuse]

Of course they give scholarships. They just aren't called athletic scholarships. It's all needs-based.

Financial aid has nothing to do with athletics. It's all based on your family income and assets. My kid went through the recruiting process with an Ivy. They don't throw money at athletes like some think.

 

[USMCSnyper]

This is just stupid. Now students are employees? What about non-athletic students? They don't bring revenue so they are not employees? The lack of a 360 review of this decision is astounding. I hate it here.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

They will certainly have to budget differently. Some will probably decide it is not sustainable. I am sure some plantations shut down after they could no longer count on free labor too.

Free? - Not counting of course the $250k free education in liue of pay. Im so sick of this bullcrap

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I work at a college and the RA’s recently unionized. You can absolutely be a student, a unionized employee, and live on campus all at the same time.

The RA's unionized is everything wrong with our freaking country WTH its a clown world