No matter how things unfold, no matter who the next head coach ends up being...

[rrlbees]

You should remember that was Covid year. Which was not fun for college kids in any way. That was a very stressful and unusual season for everyone with all the restrictions. I think he would’ve had a very different experience here with no pandemic. And JB did not help matters.

yes i know it was the covid year. and su was basically shut down with no fraternization allowed at the time.

 

[Sherman20]

Syracuse starting point guards since Tyler Ennis departed...

2015: Kaleb Joseph
2016: Michael Gbinije
2017: John Gillon
2018: Frank Howard
2019: Frank Howard
2020: Joe Girard
2021: Joe Girard
2022: Joe Girard
2023: Judah Mintz
2024: Judah Mintz
2025: Jaquan Carlos
2026: Naithan George

This may be the most depressing list I've ever posted here.

This is somewhat misleading. Gbinije was very good, even if he wasn’t a true PG. He led us to a Final Four in 2016, and he was the starting PG in 2015, too, after JB benched Joseph. Mintz was a very good PG, though had his limitations. And in 2021, we had Kadary even if he wasn’t starting.

Side note, remember the top 50 PG we recruited in Girard’s class, Jalen Carey, who we all thought was gonna be a star and wound up being a bust. He started a few games and looked like a deer in the headlights and JB went with Girard at PG instead for the rest of the year. Carey was a Red recruit and a huge missed evaluation.

 

[721Comstock]

This is misleading. Gbinije was very good, even if he wasn’t a true PG. He led us to a Final Four in 2016, and he was the starting PG in 2015, too, after JB benched Joseph. Mintz was a very good PG, though had his limitations. And in 2021, we had Kadary even if he wasn’t starting.

Side note, remember the top 50 PG we recruited in Girard’s class, Jalen Carey, who we all thought was gonna be a star and wound up being a bust. He started a few games and looked like a deer in the headlights and JB went with Girard at PG instead for the rest of the year. That was a Red recruit and a huge missed evaluation.

The more damning list would be of the PG’s who we could have potentially gotten, instead of that motley crew.

Seeing both Jalen Brunson & SGA crushing it in the NBA gives me agita,
knowing that JAB basically blew them off by prioritizing other options,
that either sucked or we didn’t land.

 

[Brooky03]

The more damning list would be of the PG’s who we could have potentially gotten, instead of that motley crew.

Seeing both Jalen Brunson & SGA crushing it in the NBA gives me agita,
knowing that JAB basically blew them off by prioritizing other options,
that either sucked or we didn’t land.

I know, or at least heard, we passed on Brunson because he wasn’t a zone fit, but I don’t remember convos about Shai. Did we really have a chance to get him over Kentucky? His size and athleticism profile would have obviously fit the zone and we didn’t have great incumbent or expected PGs. Even without the benefit of hindsight, passing on him would be bizarre.

 

[Brooky03]

I know he has/had mental health struggles, but Kaleb Joseph being unplayable really started the derailment. iirc, the staff was counting on him to be a multi-year starter. The staff bears the responsibility for not pivoting better/sooner, but that really started the trend of makeshift PGs.

 

[Sherman20]

I know, or at least heard, we passed on Brunson because he wasn’t a zone fit, but I don’t remember convos about Shai. Did we really have a chance to get him over Kentucky? His size and athleticism profile would have obviously fit the zone and we didn’t have great incumbent or expected PGs. Even without the benefit of hindsight, passing on him would be bizarre.

Apparently, per ITKs on here, Hop felt we could’ve had SGA if we had pivoted away from Quade that fall when he was dragging his feet (SGA hadn’t blown up yet), but JB stuck to his guns. More failure to listen to the assistant coaches with recruiting. We also apparently had Monte Morris (who became a star at Iowa State) in our pocket and blew that one. I forget the story there.

 

[RF2044]

Apparently, per ITKs on here, Hop felt we could’ve had SGA if we had pivoted away from Quade that fall when he was dragging his feet (SGA hadn’t blown up yet), but JB stuck to his guns. More failure to listen to the assistant coaches with recruiting. We also apparently had Monte Morris (who became a star at Iowa State) in our pocket and blew that one. I forget the story there.

The story with Morris is that we recruited him, and he came to the elite camp [where he killed it] with his family, who expected him to receive an offer. They were prepared to accept, which is why the whole family was in town to tour the campus, etc. outside of him playing in the camp. I think there may have even been a reporter from his local [Detroit?] press on hand to cover it. Morris [I believe -- may have this detail wrong] was in the same class as Ennis, and was cool coming here alongside Ennis.

Very surprisingly, Boeheim opted to NOT offer him. The family was stunned, as Syracuse was his top choice. He proceeded to end up at Iowa State, where he played on some good teams, ended up being a multi-year all-american, and had a lengthy NBA career.

But apparently, he wasn't good enough to play here.

 

[rrlbees]

I know he has/had mental health struggles, but Kaleb Joseph being unplayable really started the derailment. iirc, the staff was counting on him to be a multi-year starter. The staff bears the responsibility for not pivoting better/sooner, but that really started the trend of makeshift PGs.

we knew kaleb needed development, but he showed tremendous potential. but his development year working with ennis went out the door when ennis went pro and kaleb was thrown to the wolves too early. that probably wrecked his confidence. and as we know now, kaleb had mental health issues. who knows if that played any role in his lack of confidence.

 

[SU91]

Let's make sure we have a good point guard and good coach.

Nait George led the ACC in assists last year as an all-conference PG as a sophmore.

He certainly isn't the best PG we've ever had, but running a terrible and poorly-coached system is a big part of his problems this year methinks and his talent was squandered.

He'd be quite capable with the right system and coach.

Nait George is a terrible point guard. I don’t care if he had a billion assists on a poor team prior to coming here. It was bad scouting as he is not good. Repeat, not good.

And, if you want specifics: poor handle, weak with the ball, poor decision making, turnover prone, can’t beat anyone off the dribble, turnstile on defense, telegraphs passes, leaves his feet and gets caught in the air, picks up his dribble, unathletic, can’t make an entry pass, rarely finds the open man, over dribbles constantly. The anti point guard if you will.

Best player on a crappy GT team maybe, but a very poor pickup by the Cuse. Don’t believe the hype, believe your eyes.

 

[kingtidge]

Nait George is a terrible point guard. I don’t care if he had a billion assists on a poor team prior to coming here. It was bad scouting as he is not good. Repeat, not good.

And, if you want specifics: poor handle, weak with the ball, poor decision making, turnover prone, can’t beat anyone off the dribble, turnstile on defense, telegraphs passes, leaves his feet and gets caught in the air, picks up his dribble, unathletic, can’t make an entry pass, rarely finds the open man, over dribbles constantly. The anti point guard if you will.

Best player on a crappy GT team maybe, but a very poor pickup by the Cuse. Don’t believe the hype, believe your eyes.

I believe this coaching staff is not getting the most out of the current players and the lack of modern systems and coaching is affecting their performance and player development negatively... and I didn't say George was a great PG, I said he'd be a lot more serviceable under a better coaching staff and system. If you disagree, fine by me.

 

[SU91]

I believe this coaching staff is not getting the most out of the current players and the lack of modern systems and coaching is affecting their performance and player development negatively... and I didn't say George was a great PG, I said he's be a lot more serviceable under a better coaching staff and system. If you disagree, fine by me.

Fair. You’re probably correct in that he would perform better elsewhere. I just really want better players in addition to better coaching. We really, really need both. I don’t think George, even under a better coach with a better system, takes us to where we want to be. And, I admit, would desperately like to return to glory. Thus, my animosity towards George because I bristle at the idea of him running the team again.

Separately, I worry about Cuse ever attracting the type of player we really need to win at a high level ever again. Even under a different coach. I know that’s gloomy, but I think it remains a legitimate concern until it shown to us that it can be done.

 

[Scooch]

This is somewhat misleading. Gbinije was very good, even if he wasn’t a true PG. He led us to a Final Four in 2016, and he was the starting PG in 2015, too, after JB benched Joseph. Mintz was a very good PG, though had his limitations. And in 2021, we had Kadary even if he wasn’t starting.

Side note, remember the top 50 PG we recruited in Girard’s class, Jalen Carey, who we all thought was gonna be a star and wound up being a bust. He started a few games and looked like a deer in the headlights and JB went with Girard at PG instead for the rest of the year. Carey was a Red recruit and a huge missed evaluation.

How is it misleading? I listed the guys who got the majority of the starter's minutes at PG in each season. And I said Gbinije was the best of the bunch in a later post. It's that not one of them could hold a candle to nearly all of the PGs we started in the many years prior to 2015. Ennis, MCW, Scoop, Flynn.

 

[sweetpea]

Crazy.

Obviously, Gbinije had about as good of a senior season as anyone could have hoped. He morphed into a plus lead guard, who was also a good scorer / shooter, and a plus defender. Prior to that he was a backup PG, but bounced around between wing, 2, and backing up Ennis since there was nobody else to do so. But safe to say that by his senior year, he was a difference maker -- an all conference, borderline all american type who had a season that propelled him into the NBA.

Other than that...

We've only had a couple of passable seasons from PGs throughout that span. Gbinije was the gold standard. Mintz / George flashed intermittently, but failed to elevate their teams. Gillon was solid in his one year here, but had some limitations [especially on the defensive end]. That's it.

Joseph and Carlos were flops.

George is OK.

Howard wasn't very good.

Mintz wasn't a really lead guard, but was reasonable.

Girard wasn't really a lead guard, and was miscast in that role / utilized improperly here.

Gillon was a break glass in case of emergency add, but was a terrific offensive player, but a defensive liability and an average playmaker / ballhandler.

So we've had... what, maybe 3 or 4 years out of 12 with even just adequate PG play over that span you list?

Very good year with Gbinije, which coincided with a final four run.

Mintz and George were adequate.

JB waited too long to insert Gillon into the starting lineup, and we missed the NCAAT by an eyelash after a dreadful performance in the non-conference portion of the schedule in 2017.

Howard was a buffoon.

We struggled with Girard at the helm [he was much better at Clemson, used more properly off-the-ball].

Joseph was the hand-picked successor to Ennis, and he was a huge miss.

Carlos was similarly a huge miss.

Poor Frank Howard. Admits he wouldn't change anything about his career at SU even though he gets suspended for the tournament game. I remember JB screaming at him when he made a free throw at the end of I think the Arizona State (might have been TCU) NCAA game to put us up 4 with less than a second or so to go.

 

[sweetpea]

Poor Frank Howard. Admits he wouldn't change anything about his career at SU even though he gets suspended for the tournament game. I remember JB screaming at him when he made a free throw at the end of I think the Arizona State (might have been TCU) NCAA game to put us up 4 with less than a second or so to go.

Hey, I didn't call him not good or a buffoon like an earlier post. Probably close to that though.

 

[RF2044]

Hey, I didn't call him not good or a buffoon like an earlier post. Probably close to that though.

Howard was a buffoon -- and an absolute loon who submarined recruiting and caused locker room friction.

 

[Ghost]

I know, or at least heard, we passed on Brunson because he wasn’t a zone fit, but I don’t remember convos about Shai. Did we really have a chance to get him over Kentucky? His size and athleticism profile would have obviously fit the zone and we didn’t have great incumbent or expected PGs. Even without the benefit of hindsight, passing on him would be bizarre.

Before we transitioned into the 'Buddy Boeheim NBA Preparatory Academy @ Syracuse University" it was amazing the players we didn’t prioritize in recruiting due to the zone.

Then afterwards, the players we lost due to the academy's focus on players who couldnt play the zone well. Oh well. I'm happy to have traded it all to see BB on a 10 day two-way contract every couple of years.

 

[dollarbill44]

Had a crazy run of PGs with Flynn, MCW, Triche, Ennis, Gbinije

Gbinije was PG because we failed to successfully recruit a real PG.

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

Nope, just the vulnerable folks they knew.

Always funny when this stuff draws out the folks who dgaf about any consequences to others.

I am 46 and am still dealing with Long Covid, just got referred to a LC clinic out here. It’s been a really difficult few years, appreciate you saying something.

 

[Sherman20]

The story with Morris is that we recruited him, and he came to the elite camp [where he killed it] with his family, who expected him to receive an offer. They were prepared to accept, which is why the whole family was in town to tour the campus, etc. outside of him playing in the camp. I think there may have even been a reporter from his local [Detroit?] press on hand to cover it. Morris [I believe -- may have this detail wrong] was in the same class as Ennis, and was cool coming here alongside Ennis.

Very surprisingly, Boeheim opted to NOT offer him. The family was stunned, as Syracuse was his top choice. He proceeded to end up at Iowa State, where he played on some good teams, ended up being a multi-year all-american, and had a lengthy NBA career.

But apparently, he wasn't good enough to play here.

Thanks for sharing. I don’t know if I ever heard the inside story, but insiders always cite how we blew it with his recruitment. Yikes. That’s bad. JB was so stubborn and foolish with recruiting and player acquisition in his later years. Then Ennis leaves after his freshman year and we have no legit successor after him. We also should have recruited MCW’s brother, who went to Creighton and had a good career there.

 

[RF2044]

Thanks for sharing. I don’t know if I ever heard the inside story, but insiders always cite how we blew it with his recruitment. Yikes. That’s bad. JB was so stubborn and foolish with recruiting and player acquisition in his later years. Then Ennis leaves after his freshman year and we have no legit backup after him. We also should have recruited MCW’s brother, who went to Creighton and had a good career there.

And this is 100% true -- Morris understood that he'd be coming in with Ennis, who would be the starter, and he was FINE WITH THAT. There was no reason to turn him away.

Massive blunder, given how good he ended up being.

 

[RF2044]

we knew kaleb needed development, but he showed tremendous potential. but his development year working with ennis went out the door when ennis went pro and kaleb was thrown to the wolves too early. that probably wrecked his confidence. and as we know now, kaleb had mental health issues. who knows if that played any role in his lack of confidence.

Interesting questions.

It's too bad -- the staff blew it on back-to-back hand picked PGs with Kaleb Joseph and then Jalen Carey. Both very similar in terms of athleticism, with lousy / subpar handles.

Costly misses.

 

[Sherman20]

Crazy.

Obviously, Gbinije had about as good of a senior season as anyone could have hoped. He morphed into a plus lead guard, who was also a good scorer / shooter, and a plus defender. Prior to that he was a backup PG, but bounced around between wing, 2, and backing up Ennis since there was nobody else to do so. But safe to say that by his senior year, he was a difference maker -- an all conference, borderline all american type who had a season that propelled him into the NBA.

Other than that...

We've only had a couple of passable seasons from PGs throughout that span. Gbinije was the gold standard. Mintz / George flashed intermittently, but failed to elevate their teams. Gillon was solid in his one year here, but had some limitations [especially on the defensive end]. That's it.

Joseph and Carlos were flops.

George is OK.

Howard wasn't very good.

Mintz wasn't a really lead guard, but was reasonable.

Girard wasn't really a lead guard, and was miscast in that role / utilized improperly here.

Gillon was a break glass in case of emergency add, but was a terrific offensive player, but a defensive liability and an average playmaker / ballhandler.

So we've had... what, maybe 3 or 4 years out of 12 with even just adequate PG play over that span you list?

Very good year with Gbinije, which coincided with a final four run.

Mintz and George were adequate.

JB waited too long to insert Gillon into the starting lineup, and we missed the NCAAT by an eyelash after a dreadful performance in the non-conference portion of the schedule in 2017.

We struggled with Girard at the helm [he was much better at Clemson, used more properly off-the-ball].

Joseph was the hand-picked successor to Ennis, and he was a huge miss.

Carlos was similarly a huge miss.

This is a really good breakdown. A couple of additional points. When JB went into the 2014-15 season with only Rak and Gbinije as potential leaders, his complacency really started showing, especially in a year when the NCAA investigation was hovering around. We needed to get better players in that season (likely grad transfers or last minute recruiting adds), and he basically said he was expecting Rak to make a big jump (which he did, thanks in part to Hop’s work). JB’s poor roster building really started here. We had a really good recruiting class the next season, and that helped, but we never landed Thomas Bryant, Mustafa Diagne didn’t qualify, and Malachi only stayed one year. So that set us back.

Also, that 2017 team was so close to the tourney and was surging at the end of the season beating three top 25 teams. Oh what could have been if JB had only gone with Gillon earlier.

 

[Sherman20]

How is it misleading? I listed the guys who got the majority of the starter's minutes at PG in each season. And I said Gbinije was the best of the bunch in a later post. It's that not one of them could hold a candle to nearly all of the PGs we started in the many years prior to 2015. Ennis, MCW, Scoop, Flynn.

Sorry, you’re right. I just hate seeing a PG list with Gbinije on it tagged as “depressing.” I loved that kid and he was very good, even if he didn’t come in as a natural PG. Also, Mintz could’ve been very good with better coaching and better players around him.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Nait George is a terrible point guard. I don’t care if he had a billion assists on a poor team prior to coming here. It was bad scouting as he is not good. Repeat, not good.

And, if you want specifics: poor handle, weak with the ball, poor decision making, turnover prone, can’t beat anyone off the dribble, turnstile on defense, telegraphs passes, leaves his feet and gets caught in the air, picks up his dribble, unathletic, can’t make an entry pass, rarely finds the open man, over dribbles constantly. The anti point guard if you will.

Best player on a crappy GT team maybe, but a very poor pickup by the Cuse. Don’t believe the hype, believe your eyes.

And yet he thinks he is a shooting guard. 2 for 8 last night from three and over 100 attempts on the season at 31%. Last night there was one sequence where he missed one, then immediately missed another and then next possession almost shot a third straight. Why would he have a green light.

 

[Marsh01]

Silent G was a great player. I would kill to have him now