Notre Dame Gameday...

[OrangeXtreme]

I don't check this board as much, but I see the ACC is the boogeyman here too.

All of our sports teams would be amazing if we just didn't accept that invite in 2013. Men's soccer would even be better, they would probably win a World Cup.

We might have even given WFVU a run for its' money in the Rifle competition.

 

[AD31]

I think they should just do face offs to start the game and start of 2nd half. After each goal the goalie takes it out like the sixes. Yeah sure it's nice to have a weapon if u have a great FOGO but you could have a better team and lose because ur FOGO just isn't as good as the lesser team ur playing. It's a team sport were it should come down to the whole teams play when winning or losing. It shouldnt be one team has a great FOGO and the other doesn't so that team gets double the possessions. Now sometimes u get evenly matched FOGOs but to many times u don't and the team with the better FOGO will usually win the game. Not all the time but to many times it happens. Sure when u have an ACC team play a weaker Mid Major then even if the weaker Mid Major has a dominant FOGO the way more talented ACC team usually still wins but when it comes to two ACC teams or Big Ten teams then the team with the dominant FOGO will most likely win the game. Even the Duke game sure they hit a bunch of posts but let's be real if they didn't have 20 more possessions then SU most likely wins that game. Even Maryland they had double the possessions so if SU had the same amount of possessions they most likely win because we were way more efficient that game on offense then they were. To me that's just not how a team sport should be played. Idk just my opinion

 

[PhatOrange]

There's things I don't like about Gait but this is a complete rebuild so you have to give the guy some time. The roster was in horrible horrible shape. The team imo is on the rise and I'd look for them to take off next year.

I don't think you really have to look any further than the age difference between front line players. Look at the age of Notre Dame's starters versus our startes.

I believe this was our ND box score

Cuse starting attack
freshman (2 points)
sophomore (3 points)
grad student (4 points)

Cuse starting midfield
1 line
freshman (2 points)
freshman (1 points)
grad student (3 points)

2 line (not entirely clear here but these two play the most)
sophomore - Birtwhistle (1 point)
freshman - Rhoa

Cuse Starting Defense
Sophomore
Sophomore
Freshman

LSM
junior (2 points)
freshman

SSDM
Combo of juniors and sophomores

Notre Dame - every kid who registered a point vs Cuse and defense starters
Dobson - junior middie (starter) (5 points)
Taylor - senior attack (starter) (4 points)
P Kavanagh - senior attack (starter) (5 points)
C Kavanagh - sophomore attack (starter) (4 points)
Gray - senior middie (3 points)
Simmons - grad student middie (2 points)
Walker - junior attack (starter) (1 points)
Tevlin - grad student middie
McCahon - grad student middie (starter) (1 points)
Parlette - junior middie
Westlin - grad student attack/mid
Harris - senior middie
Donovan - freshman lsm
Defense Starters
Fake - Grad Student
Napolitano - Grad Student
Conlin - Senior


ND is a top 3 team starting 2 grad students and a senior on defense as well as their senior all-american goalie. It matters.

Offensively - of Notre Dame's 30 points, 25 of them were from juniors, seniors and grad students. 26 if you omit the LSM.

Offensively - Syracuse had 18 points. Only 9 were from juniors, seniors and grad students - 2 from an LSM. So from an offensive standpoint it's 7 points. Less than half our scoring. On the flip side though, our two grad students did the bulk of the scoring for us.

Age and Experience matter. It's not rocket science.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Faceoff and faceoff success is almost always cyclical. SU struggled for years before getting Ben Williams and then dominated 90% of teams for 3 years. Marr used to bitch at Albany a out faceoffs for years until TD Ierlan. No team is immune even Duke and Maryland have struggled mightily at tunes. People forget the game against Duke in the Dome SU won by double digits because Ben Williams won almost every draw.

 

[AD31]

There's things I don't like about Gait but this is a complete rebuild so you have to give the guy some time. The roster was in horrible horrible shape. The team imo is on the rise and I'd look for them to take off next year.

I don't think you really have to look any further than the age difference between front line players. Look at the age of Notre Dame's starters versus our startes.

I believe this was our ND box score

Cuse starting attack
freshman (2 points)
sophomore (3 points)
grad student (4 points)

Cuse starting midfield
1 line
freshman (2 points)
freshman (1 points)
grad student (3 points)

2 line (not entirely clear here but these two play the most)
sophomore - Birtwhistle (1 point)
freshman - Rhoa

Cuse Starting Defense
Sophomore
Sophomore
Freshman

LSM
junior (2 points)
freshman

SSDM
Combo of juniors and sophomores

Notre Dame - every kid who registered a point vs Cuse and defense starters
Dobson - junior middie (starter) (5 points)
Taylor - senior attack (starter) (4 points)
P Kavanagh - senior attack (starter) (5 points)
C Kavanagh - sophomore attack (starter) (4 points)
Gray - senior middie (3 points)
Simmons - grad student middie (2 points)
Walker - junior attack (starter) (1 points)
Tevlin - grad student middie
McCahon - grad student middie (starter) (1 points)
Parlette - junior middie
Westlin - grad student attack/mid
Harris - senior middie
Donovan - freshman lsm
Defense Starters
Fake - Grad Student
Napolitano - Grad Student
Conlin - Senior


ND is a top 3 team starting 2 grad students and a senior on defense as well as their senior all-american goalie. It matters.

Offensively - of Notre Dame's had 30 points, 25 of them were from juniors, seniors and grad students. 26 if you omit the LSM.

Offensively - Syracuse had 18 points. Only 9 were from juniors, seniors and grad students - 2 from an LSM. So from an offensive standpoint it's 7 points. Less than half our scoring. On the flip side though, our two grad students did the bulk of the scoring for us.

Age and Experience matter. It's not rocket science.

I do think this is why SU struggles the end of close games. Experience definitely shows in close games. Hopefully they learned some and have some experience in close games now and maybe can pull one out here these last 4 games. Ur 100% correct tho ND's players have played in a lot of close battles the last few yrs and know how to stay calm and finish teams off.

 

[AD31]

Oh also know how to jump all over a team when they take a late lead. ND just kept pushing the ball non stop. Something I wish SU did at times when they take a lead during games. Instead of Will making a save then passing it off to clear then slowing everything down to get our offense on the field to play 6 on 6. Why not jump on a team u just took a lead on and try and make it a quick 3 goal lead? I mean not every time but I feel like SU will slow the game down to much. This also helps the other team relax and get who they want on the field. Would love to see Aviles take off to the goal and if he has an O middie on him all confused he can fire it. If not he can dish it off to Hitlz to fire it. Keep the momentum going and take the wind out of teams like they do to SU.

 

[PhatOrange]

I do think this is why SU struggles the end of close games. Experience definitely shows in close games. Hopefully they learned some and have some experience in close games now and maybe can pull one out here these last 4 games. Ur 100% correct tho ND's players have played in a lot of close battles the last few yrs and know how to stay calm and finish teams off.

Kids who are bigger, stronger, and smarter who've been playing at this level for 3, 4 and 5 years are way more adept at finishing close games over teams who are young and don't have the experience, or grit, or mental toughness to close out games yet. (decision making comes into play here to. Young pups take way more chances than grizzled veterans who've been through the wars.)

It's not just ND though. It's every team we've lost to.

Syracuse is starting 4 freshman and 3 sophomores of their 10. The guys off the bench are just as young. That's why they struggle right now to finish close games.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Face offs are pretty dumb. No other sport has a make/take it option the way lacrosse does. I am also skeptical that any highly specialized position, in any sport, is ultimately good for the sport.

I'd have face offs to start each quarter. After that, I'd allow the team that just got scored upon to take the ball at midfield. D begins inside the box. O begins outside the box. There's no reason to double penalize a team by making them beat a ride. Give each team 10 seconds to sub before whistling the ball back into play.

 

[PhatOrange]

Face offs are pretty dumb. No other sport has a make/take it option the way lacrosse does. I am also skeptical that any highly specialized position, in any sport, is ultimately good for the sport.

I'd have face offs to start each quarter. After that, I'd allow the team that just got scored upon to take the ball at midfield. D begins inside the box. O begins outside the box. There's no reason to double penalize a team by making them beat a ride. Give each team 10 seconds to sub before whistling the ball back into play.

I would hate this. Even basketball has to go the length of the court and football to. I love the faceoff, but if the goalie just started with the ball it wouldn't be worst thing. You have to go the length of the field though. If you can't beat a ride you shouldn't be able to start with the ball at midfield.

I do like a FO at each quarter minimum.

I'd be all for a back to back scenario to where you just place the ball between their feet. No advanced skill there. Mano a mano

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I would hate this. Even basketball has to go the length of the court and football to. I love the faceoff, but if the goalie just started with the ball it wouldn't be worst thing. You have to go the length of the field though. If you can't beat a ride you shouldn't be able to start with the ball at midfield.

I do like a FO at each quarter minimum.

I'd be all for a back to back scenario to where you just place the ball between their feet. No advanced skill there. Mano a mano

If you make teams have to beat a ride all game long, there will be the same discrepancies you see with faceoffs. It exacerbates inequity. You get the benefit of the goal, then the benefit of the ride. I don't mind it in sixes because I assume rides are easier to beat when everyone can move everywhere (like in box) and the fields are smaller (a separate issue that merits a different discussion).

Clears will still exist, just as they do now. You're just swapping out face offs - and the chance for make it - take it and time suck that goes along with them.

If i had to chose between the two though, I'd go with goalie clears over face offs.

 

[AD31]

Faceoff and faceoff success is almost always cyclical. SU struggled for years before getting Ben Williams and then dominated 90% of teams for 3 years. Marr used to bitch at Albany a out faceoffs for years until TD Ierlan. No team is immune even Duke and Maryland have struggled mightily at tunes. People forget the game against Duke in the Dome SU won by double digits because Ben Williams won almost every draw.

Doesn't that say it all tho about the game? SU won by double digits because Ben Williams won almost every draw? Lacrosse is a team sport so why should a Fogo have all that control of the outcome of a game? The better team that day should win not the better FOGO. SU won those games in the past but I would love to see them change it and games won by the team who plays better that day not the FOGO who dominates. They can add a sport FOGO battle to see who wins the most draws which would not be a team sport. Leave team sports for the teams that play better that day to win. I think the sport would be better off in the future if they changed it. Again just my opinion,

 

[PhatOrange]

If you make teams have to beat a ride all game long, there will be the same discrepancies you see with faceoffs. It exacerbates inequity. You get the benefit of the goal, then the benefit of the ride. I don't mind it in sixes because I assume rides are easier to beat when everyone can move everywhere (like in box) and the fields are smaller (a separate issue that merits a different discussion).

Clears will still exist, just as they do now. You're just swapping out face offs - and the chance for make it - take it and time suck that goes along with them.

If i had to chose between the two though, I'd go with goalie clears over face offs.

I hear ya, but in hoops I could full court press and make it difficult. And in football we saw what happened once when our kicker couldn’t reach the end zone. I think it’s fine to pick it up and go, teams wouldn’t always be able to set up their ride. But I hope we never get to that. I’m for keeping the faceoff.

 

[cuselaxss26]

There have been plenty of times fogos dominate and team not win. Usually i’m sorry the better team wins. The duke game do you truely think this cuse team is better all around team n coached then duke?Have no idea how painful was to make that statement as no team hate more then duke, but also gotta be honest. Hopkins i can give you as i do think they were better team. I think they had more experienced players then us. Which feel is big reason for us not winning close games also. Yes faceoffs def hurting but that’s why you need to vamp up all other areas to make up for that. Still don’t pick up gbs enough. They don’t get many take aways or caused turnovers. I love the faceoffs and always should be part of game. I always said way to not let it be to controlling is “pitch count” no one player can take more then 15draws a game. I would try that before any other thing. But faceoffs arnt the only reason team lost close games. Notre dame game once again overall they were better team. Yes we are very good team also and if faceoffs went evenly think would been even closer game. But to say we def would of came on top i truely can’t say. As someone stated on hear experience is big when comes closing out games. We are getting there but don’t have it at this time. Still have to play defense and get ball or stop after faceoff and still gotta put ball in net. Faceoff just gives team ball first. Some of those dame goals at end was poor defense. The dobson one just ran right down alley n shot no one on his hands n Mark made no save. Don’t think was that incredible of shot either. Sorry i’m all for faceoffs and yes think they can change momentum in games but don’t think always the main cause for team to lose.

 

[cuselaxss26]

Truely sorry for the long rant. Btw i wasn’t fogo(wasn’t term used in my day) but i did take faceoffs a lot. Was middie who played offense/defense even pole on man down while also being good at faceoffs. Can say bias bit but even so still wouldn’t want get rid of faceoffs.

 

[cuselaxss26]

The hopkins game feel we lost cause our offense didn’t play as good as normally do. Specially man up which was 2-7 that game which was big part of not winning that game. Plus the costly turnovers in 4th. Faceoffs would say wasn’t reason for that lost.

 

[cuselaxss26]

Btw in my long rant post i ment “cuse was better team then hopkins. I truely believe we are better team then hopkins. Sorry wanted to correct that. My wife tells me all time it’s like have my own language when text. That even tho makes no sense at times what write she knows what i mean everytime. Price of being together so long lol. So sorry again know my writing is as bad as my hand writing.

 

[nyclax]

Btw in my long rant post i ment “cuse was better team then hopkins. I truely believe we are better team then hopkins.

they aren't and that's ok. you need to remember hopkins is a year ahead in their rebuild. that is another full year of getting their recruits in, bringing in transfers, building up the culture, teaching new systems and earning buy in from their players and alums. everyone needs to row in the same direction. they had a year head start on the orange. but at the end of the day you are what your record says you are. hopkins is 9-3 and their only loss since february was to virginia. they won the head 2 head matchup with the orange in the dome and have beaten 5 ranked teams. that's 5 more than syracuse im afraid. u dont need to compare the orange to them or anyone else because circumstances are different. otherwise you are setting yourself up for disappointment. if you actually think they are a better team than hopkins then why havent they won a single one of their 5 games against ranked teams?

i was talking to a 2025 midfield recruit the other day who is a likely 4 star from westchester. he will have to put on some muscle to be a 5 star but if he does the sky is the limit. blazing fast with a wicked release, very athletic and high IQ. syracuse is high on his list. you all will be ok but you dont need to kid yourselves about where the team is at right now

 

[Powellfan]

A lot of talk about faceoffs this week. It’s a high school game but Darien hasn’t won a first half faceoff but is up 8-3 over Brunswick right now. It’s not easy but teams can overcome possession disadvantages if they are solid in other areas.

 

[Cuse All-In]

Face offs are pretty dumb. No other sport has a make/take it option the way lacrosse does. I am also skeptical that any highly specialized position, in any sport, is ultimately good for the sport.

I'd have face offs to start each quarter. After that, I'd allow the team that just got scored upon to take the ball at midfield. D begins inside the box. O begins outside the box. There's no reason to double penalize a team by making them beat a ride. Give each team 10 seconds to sub before whistling the ball back into play.

Hockey is the only other major sport that has face-offs at the beginning of each period, after each goal and after other stoppages in play. It has worked in hockey because no one player has figured out a way to tip the percentages in his favor consistently and at a significantly disproportionate success rate. There are definitely some players who are better than others (i.e. the best face off guys are asked to take face offs in the defensive end late in the game to protect the lead) but winning a face off in hockey doesn't result in extended possessions and goals at anywhere near the pace lacrosse does. Hockey goals are far fewer. If anything, hockey has more of an issue with goalies as hockey goalies have save percentages in the high 80s and 90s. As a Canadian, I can assure you - I know my hockey !

My point at the beginning of this faceoff thread was meant to be unbiased and not based on being a Cuse fan in 2023 only. I hate the fact that coaches and players spend huge amounts of time preparing, training, watching film, dealing with media, alumni and then go out and play a game where the fogo matchup can be completely one-sided, and all the hard work is for nothing. The defense and goalie for the team with the weaker fogo are more tired, yelled at by coaches and blamed for losses. Overtime in college lacrosse is an embarassment - you win the face off and then call a timeout before you run your play. If you score, the other team never gets a possession.

 

[cuselaxss26]

they aren't and that's ok. you need to remember hopkins is a year ahead in their rebuild. that is another full year of getting their recruits in, bringing in transfers, building up the culture, teaching new systems and earning buy in from their players and alums. everyone needs to row in the same direction. they had a year head start on the orange. but at the end of the day you are what your record says you are. hopkins is 9-3 and their only loss since february was to virginia. they won the head 2 head matchup with the orange in the dome and have beaten 5 ranked teams. that's 5 more than syracuse im afraid. u dont need to compare the orange to them or anyone else because circumstances are different. otherwise you are setting yourself up for disappointment. if you actually think they are a better team than hopkins then why havent they won a single one of their 5 games against ranked teams?

i was talking to a 2025 midfield recruit the other day who is a likely 4 star from westchester. he will have to put on some muscle to be a 5 star but if he does the sky is the limit. blazing fast with a wicked release, very athletic and high IQ. syracuse is high on his list. you all will be ok but you dont need to kid yourselves about where the team is at right now

I see and understand what your saying. I still think orange is a better team. I agree orange don’t have the experience as hopkins or like said starting year back from new. I agree with you there. But still think orange better team and should of won that game but offense choked(inexperience) which doesn’t mean their not better just means not as experienced. Also hopkins has not played the ranked teams that we have. So can’t compare that really either. They played uva n lost to which we do play. But they haven’t played duke dame yet. They did play unc believe n lost plus lost to loyola. They do play maryland and penn st so they have rank teams ahead.The teams they beat who are ranked gtown,jacksonville, rutgers and guess can say michigan now. But i’d say 3 of those teams are overrated(rutgers,jax,mitch) and gtown started horrible vs good teams. Grant they beat rank teams so give them credit for sure. Not saying their bad team. I think we have more talent then them and better offense better goalie defense will say prob wash. As feel their both bout same in my eyes. My opinion of course not saying i’m right. But we played maryland duke unc dame who 3 of them are top 5 teams. Yes hopkins got head to head. But my point is we played better comp then they have as of right now n only gets harder for both teams but think we have the worst of it playing duke n uva n unc again who uva n unc beat hopkins. I give hopkins credit not bad team at all and win yes. But do not think their better team then cuse. As stated i believe cuse lost the hopkins game themslves by poor turnovers toward end and man up shooting poorly when that’s only game they been off like that. Would credit hopkins with credit but cuse got plenty of looks just didn’t finish. But hopkins is more experienced n not as young as cuse but still don’t think their better team. But that’s my opinion as said. Thanks for response and your honesty.

 

[AD31]

There have been plenty of times fogos dominate and team not win. Usually i’m sorry the better team wins. The duke game do you truely think this cuse team is better all around team n coached then duke?Have no idea how painful was to make that statement as no team hate more then duke, but also gotta be honest. Hopkins i can give you as i do think they were better team. I think they had more experienced players then us. Which feel is big reason for us not winning close games also. Yes faceoffs def hurting but that’s why you need to vamp up all other areas to make up for that. Still don’t pick up gbs enough. They don’t get many take aways or caused turnovers. I love the faceoffs and always should be part of game. I always said way to not let it be to controlling is “pitch count” no one player can take more then 15draws a game. I would try that before any other thing. But faceoffs arnt the only reason team lost close games. Notre dame game once again overall they were better team. Yes we are very good team also and if faceoffs went evenly think would been even closer game. But to say we def would of came on top i truely can’t say. As someone stated on hear experience is big when comes closing out games. We are getting there but don’t have it at this time. Still have to play defense and get ball or stop after faceoff and still gotta put ball in net. Faceoff just gives team ball first. Some of those dame goals at end was poor defense. The dobson one just ran right down alley n shot no one on his hands n Mark made no save. Don’t think was that incredible of shot either. Sorry i’m all for faceoffs and yes think they can change momentum in games but don’t think always the main cause for team to lose.

It's tough to get on the defense because ND won every faceoff in the 4th and the D was on the field the whole Q. How can u expect the D to cover these talented players on ND without any rest? It's hard enough stopping them when fresh so idk how u can say the D should have been making stops in the 4th. Especially ND kept on the gas and pushed the pace knowing SU defenders were exhausted.

 

[cuselaxss26]

Wasn’t saying defense wasn’t tired. Nor was i blaming them entirely. I agree they were def tired. Which is where i blame coaching for not using more guys to keep starters rested or fresh. Also blame coaches for not maby conditioning team overall better. Very hard to play anything when tired for sure. With saying that tho that is where feel great teams are made. When been on d so long and legs are jello n your winded you have to dig deep and stay calm and sound. Harder then said of course. But that’s part of any game i feel. Who when beat tired can stay sound and make less mistakes or let tiredness beat them. Also blame coaching for letting dame control pace not pressing out non stop so you are firing out other team and other team tiring out just your defense. Faceoffs def didn’t help but that’s where your defense needs to step up fight thru pain n get stop. Doing that is how many great teams have won big games. That was kinda what ment. I was no way blaming defense fully or not have faith in this team. Think this team better then their record.

 

[Powellfan]

It's tough to get on the defense because ND won every faceoff in the 4th and the D was on the field the whole Q. How can u expect the D to cover these talented players on ND without any rest? It's hard enough stopping them when fresh so idk how u can say the D should have been making stops in the 4th. Especially ND kept on the gas and pushed the pace knowing SU defenders were exhausted.

Defense could have gotten stops and therefore given themselves rest. Unfortunately they wilted. Face-offs are a big part of why this team can't get over the hump but again, you have to be solid in other areas in order to be a top team. Syracuse isn't there on the defensive end yet.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Hopkins has an edge on us but I maintain they are not on some massively different level than us this year. They have not beaten a team recently that is on the level of a Duke MD or ND, unless this Michigan MD win is a great awakening for the program, which I doubt. Rutgers just lost to an OSU team that got crushed by Penn State. Our one mutual opponent we both lost (UNC). It was a very close game in the dome.

If we played Navy Delaware Michigan Rutgers in this last stretch of games how do you think we fair? I would say we do pretty darn well, but probably choke one of the 4 away late, as our 4th quarter performances have been so disappointing this year. Those teams are a level below the teams we are losing to, and i'm sure various stats back that up. I really think I am being objective here. This isn't some anti-Hopkins tirade. I actually like Milliman as a coach and I think he was a great hire. Respect him for making the change at offensive coordinator so quickly and I like the direction he has taken their recruiting. They are older and more experienced than us and it showed late. But we are not that far off them this year. Would be impressed if they keep their win streak going with a win on the road against a hot Penn State team (who thought we would be saying that??)

 

[DoctahLexus]

Defense could have gotten stops and therefore given themselves rest. Unfortunately they wilted. Face-offs are a big part of why this team can't get over the hump but again, you have to be solid in other areas in order to be a top team. Syracuse isn't there on the defensive end yet.

The fatigue stems from the face offs in that run without question though. Wilted makes it sounds like they gave up. Each and every one of those goals late they were grinding like hell to stay with their match ups. They fought them off for nearly a whole possession and then had a BS loose ball push called on them to give ND a full clock. Mark let in a soft low angle one on Westlin when the coverage was pretty good. Not the best game from him either. The D held them to 1 goal for almost two quarters before that. They were playing pretty well. What changed was them getting literally no breaks late due to faceoffs. That combined with fatigue from our lack of depth. I maintain we are really damn close this year and could still make a splash.