Notre Dame...

[Alsacs]

For all intents ND has a conference schedule now.
5 ACC games
Navy
Stanford
USC
are there 8 conference games.

They aren't eligible for a conference title, but they only have 4 OOC slots now like every conference that plays 8 conference games.

 

[TheCusian]

What are you talking about? What ND has now allows them to play USC/Stanford, Navy and four other schools nationally. That is a tangible benefit to a school that insists on a national schedule. Limited membership in the ACC allows ND to have five guaranteed scheduled games per year with the conference. Going forward that will be important as the P5 conferences schedule less and less outside of the P5. Limited membership in the ACC gives ND access to all of the ACC bowls. Without it, the only bowls ND could get into would be the playoffs and years in which there were not enough bowl teams from a conference to fill its allotment (like last year when the Irish had no bowl arrangement and were lucky the Big 12 could not fill the Pinstripe Bowl). ND gets to keep all of its money from New Years 6 bowls and keeps its NBC deal all to itself. Your post is amazing. Most people complain that ND's deal is unfair because they get too much and give too little. You seem to think that ND's deal is so bad it is causing them to die for tradition. I will acknowledge that semi-membership in the ACC has disadvantages in access to the playoffs for ND in years it finishes at 11-1 with no conference championship. But that is hardly something that is going to cause the ND football program to die on tradition.

"That is a tangible benefit to a school that insists on a national schedule"

1. Tangible how? Being well known? (Do you really need this in the age of digital media? Do you think ND would fade from the national conscience because it plays 1 or 2 less games on the west coast?) Recruiting? (You're ND. Should be fine. We get kids from the west coast and never play over there).

2. The school insists that it's important. Why? If Syracuse insisted on a national schedule, we'd add a west coast team and a mid-west team to the OOC and be done with it. (East and South are covered).

"Limited membership in the ACC allows ND to have five guaranteed scheduled games per year with the conference. Going forward that will be important as the P5 conferences schedule less and less outside of the P5. Limited membership in the ACC gives ND access to all of the ACC bowls. Without it, the only bowls ND could get into would be the playoffs and years in which there were not enough bowl teams from a conference to fill its allotment (like last year when the Irish had no bowl arrangement and were lucky the Big 12 could not fill the Pinstripe Bowl)."

1. Full membership gets you the same thing.

2. It also gets you one more quality chance at a highly ranked team on a neutral field (that could be the difference in getting you into the playoffs).

"ND gets to keep all of its money from New Years 6 bowls and keeps its NBC deal all to itself."

Finally some honesty. It had better be about money. That's a hill you should die on.

So... to re-asses my previous post:

"No tangible benefits from independence. Limited advantages to semi-membership in the ACC. A lesser chance at playing for a national championship.

If that's the kind of tradeoff you want to make for cash, good luck."

 

[TerryD]

Good point and my guess is that the weather might have something to do with it. If this is the case then ND vs Miami could also be the Irish rival game as well.

Three reasons.

One, ND/Southern Cal is the longest intersectional rivalry in the country. The schools began playing in 1926 and have played every year since then except for 1942 (World War II). So, there is tradition there.

The second reason is that ND considers Southern Cal its biggest rival. No one else is even close, not Michigan, not Navy, not BC.

Third, playing Southern Cal is very good for California recruiting and exposure.

ND/BC haven't been playing as long or as often. ND does not consider BC a rival.

 

[TerryD]

"That is a tangible benefit to a school that insists on a national schedule"

1. Tangible how? Being well known? (Do you really need this in the age of digital media? Do you think ND would fade from the national conscience because it plays 1 or 2 less games on the west coast?) Recruiting? (You're ND. Should be fine. We get kids from the west coast and never play over there).

2. The school insists that it's important. Why? If Syracuse insisted on a national schedule, we'd add a west coast team and a mid-west team to the OOC and be done with it. (East and South are covered).

"Limited membership in the ACC allows ND to have five guaranteed scheduled games per year with the conference. Going forward that will be important as the P5 conferences schedule less and less outside of the P5. Limited membership in the ACC gives ND access to all of the ACC bowls. Without it, the only bowls ND could get into would be the playoffs and years in which there were not enough bowl teams from a conference to fill its allotment (like last year when the Irish had no bowl arrangement and were lucky the Big 12 could not fill the Pinstripe Bowl)."

1. Full membership gets you the same thing.

2. It also gets you one more quality chance at a highly ranked team on a neutral field (that could be the difference in getting you into the playoffs).

"ND gets to keep all of its money from New Years 6 bowls and keeps its NBC deal all to itself."

Finally some honesty. It had better be about money. That's a hill you should die on.

So... to re-asses my previous post:

"No tangible benefits from independence. Limited advantages to semi-membership in the ACC. A lesser chance at playing for a national championship.

If that's the kind of tradeoff you want to make for cash, good luck."

I'll agree to disagree with Neil (whom I respect and have discussed/debated on message boards going back to 2003 or so).

I still contend that Purdue and Illinois will make more money over the long run by being also rans in the Big Ten than ND will standing alone. So, I am still of the opinion that ND's independence is not primarily cash driven.

If ND decides to limit its playoff chances with independence or "semi-independence", I am not sure why anyone else would care?

There are lots of ND threads on a number of boards since the playoff teams were announced. I am really not sure why.

If it is only three more ACC games per year, is that really that big of a deal to ACC schools?

I am really perplexed why non-ACC schools care at all what ND does. If Texas went independent or joined the Big Ten, for instance, I would not care one way or the other.

Shouldn't every school have self-determination, decide what is most important to it and be able to make those choices?

 

[TheCusian]

I'll agree to disagree with Neil (whom I respect and have discussed/debated on message boards going back to 2003 or so). I still contend that Purdue and Illinois will make more money over the long run by being also rans in the Big Ten than ND will standing alone. So, I am still of the opinion that ND's independence is not primarily cash driven. If ND decides to limit its playoff chances with independence or "semi-independence", I am not sure why anyone else would care? There are lots of ND threads on a number of boards since the playoff teams were announced. I am really not sure why. If it is only three more ACC games per year, is that really that big of a deal to ACC schools? I am really perplexed why non-ACC schools care at all what ND does. If Texas went independent or joined the Big Ten, for instance, I would not care one way or the other. Shouldn't every school have self-determination, decide what is most important to it and be able to make those choices?

Absolutely. They have a right to do what they want. I only care that they be included in the ACC for the perceived strength of the conference. We get dinged for being a weak P5 (even though there are very good arguments that we are not the worst) - a full member addition of ND would help. ND would get the chance to be conference champ (and all of the extra oomph that gets with the committee, stated or not) - and the rest of the schools benefit perception wise.

Right now, when people talk ACC conference - they don't include ND in that discussion. I think this hurts the perception of the league - despite the 5 game agreement.

I also am hopelessly curious as to why independence is this mythical fairy god mother for ND's success or perception - or whatever is gained from being a "national program".

 

[sabach]

"That is a tangible benefit to a school that insists on a national schedule"

1. Tangible how? Being well known? (Do you really need this in the age of digital media? Do you think ND would fade from the national conscience because it plays 1 or 2 less games on the west coast?) Recruiting? (You're ND. Should be fine. We get kids from the west coast and never play over there).

2. The school insists that it's important. Why? If Syracuse insisted on a national schedule, we'd add a west coast team and a mid-west team to the OOC and be done with it. (East and South are covered).

"Limited membership in the ACC allows ND to have five guaranteed scheduled games per year with the conference. Going forward that will be important as the P5 conferences schedule less and less outside of the P5. Limited membership in the ACC gives ND access to all of the ACC bowls. Without it, the only bowls ND could get into would be the playoffs and years in which there were not enough bowl teams from a conference to fill its allotment (like last year when the Irish had no bowl arrangement and were lucky the Big 12 could not fill the Pinstripe Bowl)."

1. Full membership gets you the same thing.

2. It also gets you one more quality chance at a highly ranked team on a neutral field (that could be the difference in getting you into the playoffs).

"ND gets to keep all of its money from New Years 6 bowls and keeps its NBC deal all to itself."

Finally some honesty. It had better be about money. That's a hill you should die on.

So... to re-asses my previous post:

"No tangible benefits from independence. Limited advantages to semi-membership in the ACC. A lesser chance at playing for a national championship.

If that's the kind of tradeoff you want to make for cash, good luck."

Listen, no one is denying that ND may be at a competitive disadvantage by not being able to play in a CCG in years it goes 11-1. That said, why would ND join a conference when you admit they can get just as much access to ACC bowls even if they do not join? Moreover, assuming USC, Stanford and Navy will always be on the schedule, having 4 other games to schedule the Big 12, SEC and B1G is better than having 1 game each year. So again, why join a conference, when doing so will limit your ability to do what you want? You don't see value in that. Fair enough but please do not compare SU to ND in this regard. ND, whether you like it or not, sees itself as a national school because of its Catholic tradition. They want a national schedule because of this. It is not just because of recruiting. And that is not even considering the money aspect which is significant. Remember, I love SU too. I don't need to be reminded about an athletic program making decisions based on cash.

 

[nd1973]

The fact of the matter is that ND has complete unfettered discretion over 7 of its games per year and SU has the same over 4 of its games per year. That does not make SU independent. ND is independent in terms of not being part of conference standings, not being eligible for a conference championship and not playing conference games (i.e the 5 ACC games they play do not count for the ACC schools in their conference record). Because of this, ND may be at a competitive disadvantage in years it finishes 11-1 and does not have a CCG to finish its resume on. For this reason Terry D is correct. However, because ND allows the ACC to dictate who and when they play 5 games per year, this independence is qualified. For this reason Neil is correct. For my money, I hope ND never joins the ACC. I do not want to see the two football schools I root for being in the same conference. I hate when SU plays ND. One of them has to lose.

Terry do frequent Irish envy?

They're having a discussion on this(the 13th game) and it's interesting here is the thread http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/232898-demand-13th-game.html .

 

[TerryD]

Terry do frequent Irish envy?

They're having a discussion on this(the 13th game) and it's interesting here is the thread http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/232898-demand-13th-game.html .

Never. I am a NDNation.com and Irish Illustrated (pay board) type of guy. But, I checked out the thread.

Regarding that thread, it will mean almost nothing to me for ND football to win a division or conference title. That will hold little value for me.

It will mean much more to me if ND wins a national championship in football as an independent than as a full conference member.

In the former, it would be ND going against the grain, overcoming the higher odds and doing something nobody else has figured out how to do. Doing it by going its own way. That would be extremely satisfying to me.

In the latter, it would be doing it just like everyone else. It would not bring the same amount of enjoyment to me.

IF ND football joins a conference, I will likely have a diminished interest in that program than I do now and have for fifty years.

Joining a conference means a surrender by ND to me. It means turning your back on 127 years of going your own way and the men who made it happen.

Anyway, time will tell and things will happen or not whether I like them or not. Take care.

 

[nd1973]

Never. I am a NDNation.com and Irish Illustrated (pay board) type of guy. But, I checked out the thread.

Regarding that thread, it will mean almost nothing to me for ND football to win a division or conference title. That will hold little value for me.

It will mean much more to me if ND wins a national championship in football as an independent than as a full conference member.

In the former, it would be ND going against the grain, overcoming the higher odds and doing something nobody else has figured out how to do. Doing it by going its own way. That would be extremely satisfying to me.

In the latter, it would be doing it just like everyone else. It would not bring the same amount of enjoyment to me.

IF ND football joins a conference, I will likely have a diminished interest in that program than I do now and have for fifty years.

Joining a conference means a surrender by ND to me. It means turning your back on 127 years of going your own way and the men who made it happen.

Anyway, time will tell and things will happen or not whether I like them or not. Take care.

I actually agree with most of what you said. But with ND not "caring" and the demise of the program a lot of the fight for independence is lost now. Independence now to me is just ND branding with commit to nothing but assuring that ND get's it name out there(Money). Our coach stinks, our admin sabotages our program constantly and it's hard to watch. We have settled for mediocrity already.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Never. I am a NDNation.com and Irish Illustrated (pay board) type of guy. But, I checked out the thread.

Regarding that thread, it will mean almost nothing to me for ND football to win a division or conference title. That will hold little value for me.

It will mean much more to me if ND wins a national championship in football as an independent than as a full conference member.

In the former, it would be ND going against the grain, overcoming the higher odds and doing something nobody else has figured out how to do. Doing it by going its own way. That would be extremely satisfying to me.

In the latter, it would be doing it just like everyone else. It would not bring the same amount of enjoyment to me.

IF ND football joins a conference, I will likely have a diminished interest in that program than I do now and have for fifty years.

Joining a conference means a surrender by ND to me. It means turning your back on 127 years of going your own way and the men who made it happen.

Anyway, time will tell and things will happen or not whether I like them or not. Take care.

anyone else here still trying to figure out if they should feel bad for Syracuse giving up their ALMIGHTY AND GREAT, INDEPENDENCE status in 1991??

is anybody else here longing for tv through rabbit ears and not cable??

alright, bad example...you cheap freaks are.

is anybody else here longing for the telegraph system instead of emails and texts??

 

[omniorange]

anyone else here still trying to figure out if they should feel bad for Syracuse giving up their ALMIGHTY AND GREAT, INDEPENDENCE status in 1991??

is anybody else here longing for tv through rabbit ears and not cable??

alright, bad example...you cheap freaks are.

is anybody else here longing for the telegraph system instead of emails and texts??

I don't mind the "longing", that's anyone's prerogative.

It's the Don Quixote type not recognizing the reality that is, that annoys me, even with Terry. But I probably came on too strong in this thread. After all, they have only had this football season to get used to the new reality.

Still, whether they will admit to it or not, for the majority of ND fans who feel like Terry (not Terry himself who has shown himself to be a great poster with a lot of respect for the traditions of others for over a decade) "football independence" is just a way of saying we are better than you. Duh?! Anyone who doesn't know the Irish football brand is better than maybe all but one (Alabama), is delusional as well. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with being independent. It's about winning.

The rest is either Terry's romantic idealism or just a way to say "We are better than you", which the majority fall into as evidenced by how in the age of rabbit ears and the early days of cable they flaunted the NBC contract and all that entailed ($$$ more than any other single team, national TV coverage for every game, etc) in other fans faces.

While I once thought ND would join a conference fully for football, a year or so ago, I finally came to the conclusion that they will not. And that is fine with me as well.

Who knows, when the GOR comes up for renewal, Terry may get his wish and the Irish will leave the ACC and go indy for all their sports.

But until that time, the reality is, they are semi-independent for football. And that is special too. But apparently, not special enough for many Irish fans.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Scooch]

FWIW, one thing I would have mandated had I been in the ACC office when they signed the deal with ND... ACC standings would include ND at the bottom with their 5 game "conference" record included with a nmote that read: *Notre Dame maintains a scheduling agreement with the ACC and plays 5/8th of a conference schedule. ND is not eligible for the ACC football championship.

Just to make sure everyone knows ND's true status.

 

[chakka3421]

I personally am ok if ND stays independent. Why?

For ACC - helps our status especially when ND wins against other conference opponents but our best team wins against them like FSU did this year (too bad the rest of NDs season turned disastrous) - helps gauge how good or bad ACC really is and could help ACC status long term.

Also ACC learned from old BE conference past mistakes - no FB requirements unlike the ACC 5 game requirements. Good for ACC especially for national exposure as those 5 games will be mostly on prime time national NBC TV.

For ND - no need to schedule 9 games anymore, just 4 as Navy, USC & Stanford are a given.

It will be interesting to watch them regarding independence as I think it will be based upon 2 things for ND - given the current 4 team playoff they must go undefeated to be considered. I see them pushing for an 8 game playoff - it will be easier for them to get in even with a 1 loss season. So for me it will be interesting to watch and see if ND starts to really push for a 8 game playoff.

Will an 8 game playoff favor SU? Yes because of the conference champ lock. We share the same goals with ND in the end. I have always contended that an 8 game playoff is the great equalizer and solves a lot of problems given the current P5 setup for all including ND & SU.

 

[Btstimpy]

If a conference dictates any portion of our schedule I at that time believe we're no longer truly "independent" . JMO

It's just semantics on how you look at it. ND is both 5/8 in a conference and 3/8 independent. Once the 5 conference games become regular on the schedule, it isn't a tough task to work in the other three.

 

[CuseOnly]

No they're not making $300 mil together. The new members are being phased in and not getting much dough for the first few years. Plus it's basketball AND football for the B1G and not just football. iAccording to TerryD, ND is getting $18 mil just for 7 homes games. My original point stands- ND has a very lucrative deal that would be hard to top by any conference.

SO...you are saying that the B1G does not make $300 million a year in totality from their TV contract? It doesn't matter how many teams there are, that is just how the pies is divided.

Again, you would be wrong. The B1G makes just about $300 mil PER YEAR on it's TV contract, whether it is divided between 12 or 14 tams is irrelevant to this argument. You are saying they don't, I know for a fact that they do make over $300 mil/year.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...-projected-to-get-45-million-with-new-tv-deal

2014 - 11 teams, each will make $27 mil/year is $297 mil (not even counting the other 3 schools)
2015 - 11 teams, each will make $30.9 mil/year is $341 mil (not even counting the other 3 schools)
2016 - 11 teams, each will make $35.5 mil/year is...you get the point

You should research something before you post...

BTW - ND's deal is not as lucrative as the B1G money for each team as you can see.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think The Ninja needs to go after PSU again and make a play for the jugular. If ND joins the ACC for full membership, the 16th team needs to be a solid program. There is no way UConn is considered because basketball won't matter this time around. Today cemented that Football is in charge. We got in at the right time because our football is putrid right now.

It was only 1 year, Pete. We won bowl games 3 out of 4 years before that, and in Shaffer's defense, we had a ton of injuries on Offense this year. I wouldn't say we have slipped back to the depths of GRob, but we definitely have to bounce back next year and make a bowl game again.