Notre Dame...

[longtimefan]

[QUOTE="omniorange, post: 1224030, member: 636.



In other words, ND has already taken a huge half step toward conference affiliation that the purists simply do not want to acknowledge while they parade around in their independence clothing. I'd like to say to the emperor you are 5/8ths naked and the awkward parts are showing.


Cheers,
Neil[/QUOTE]
The Irish football program may be wearing a white dress, but it is no longer virginal.

 

[omniorange]

Actually, the Irish were the away team when they last played Navy in Dublin. An 8 team conference schedule with the ACC would only allow one wild card for ND each year if they were to keep Navy and Stan/USC. Semi independence allows a national schedule but IMO the ACC is the one conference that gives ND the best shot at what it wants if ghey had to join a conference.

Agreed, as presently constituted. And as long as they keep USC and Stanford games if they were to join fully. Navy (for football only) might be the price for the latter though.

Anyway, conferences as they have grown, already bring more diversity of regions then they used to have. The point I was making was that the national schedule argument is as false as their claims of independence.

What makes Notre Dame national more so than their schedule is their Catholic following.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[TerryD]

I see ND being independent with a 5 game scheduling agreement with the ACC, because that is all it is.

ND played 3 Big Ten teams every year for several decades. That didn't make them a conference member. The same with the PAC 12. ND played three of their schools this season.

The Big Ten always mandated that their ND games be played in September. That didn't make ND a Big Ten member.

If ND contracted three games per year each with the Big Ten and PAC 12 to go along with the ACC deal, it would still be independent and have a unique status different than any member of a football conference in the country.

Is it the total, unfettered independence of the past, no. But it is still not totally tied down, burdened or beholden to a football conference.

ND is not in the ACC for football. Which division is it in? What are its chances of winning the ACC championship game next year?

As Neil noted, there are no ACC logos on its field or uniforms. As Sabach noted, ND still controls 7 games a year to play whomever (and sometimes wherever) it wants.

If the ACC voted on certain changes or requirements for its football programs, they would have no binding effect on ND.

Bottom line is that ND's status is different than conference teams. I hope and believe it will stay that way.

I also agree with Sabach in that ND will not give up independence unless it is mandated that only conference champs are legally eligible for the playoffs.

 

[omniorange]

I see ND being independent with a 5 game scheduling agreement with the ACC, because that is all it is.

ND played 3 Big Ten teams every year for several decades. That didn't make them a conference member. The same with the PAC 12. ND played three of their schools this season.

If ND contracted three games per year each with the Big Ten and PAC 12 to go along with the ACC deal, it would still be independent and have a unique status different than any member of a football conference in the country.

Is it the total, unfettered independence of the past, no. But it is still not totally tied down, burdened or beholden to a football conference.

ND is not in the ACC for football. Which division is it in? What are its chances of winning the ACC championship game next year?

As Neil noted, there are no ACC logos on its field or uniforms. As Sabach noted, ND still controls 7 games a year to play whomever (and sometimes wherever) it wants.

If the ACC voted on certain changes or requirements for its football programs, they would have no binding effect on ND.

Bottom line is that ND's status is different than conference teams. I hope and believe it will stay that way.

The difference is that ND is doing the contracting and the scheduling. And they can back out of any of those games.

But keep deluding yourself, if you want. It makes no difference to me.

SU is 1/3rd independent. Yeah!!!!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[TerryD]

The difference is that ND is doing the contracting and the scheduling. And they can back out of any of those games.

But keep deluding yourself, if you want. It makes no difference to me.

SU is 1/3rd independent. Yeah!!!!

Cheers,
Neil

I suffer from no delusions. I understand exactly what ND's status is. I would prefer ND to be fully independent in all sports. I don't like the very idea of conferences.

But, whether you use my term or yours, it still is a unique status and, in my opinion, beats being totally tied down as any full conference member.

ND still has to qualify for the playoffs and the big bowls as an independent, not a conference member.

It still has scheduling control over 7 games, etc...etc.

My definition of independent = "Not a conference member for football".

 

[omniorange]

What ACC division is ND football in?

I suffer from no delusions. I would prefer ND to be fully independent in all sports. I don't like the very idea of conferences.

But, whether you use my term or yours, it still is a unique status and, in my opinion, beats being totally tied down as any full conference member.

Whether it's a divisional set-up or should the ACC get the legislation passed that they want in a 3+5+5 model, the conference sets our 8 opponents, just like they do ND's 5.

This imagined freedom from conference restraint you laud as "independence" basically amounts to 3 games more ND gets to schedule than SU doesn't and you get to keep your NY6 Day Bowl monies. That's it. And that, my friend, is not independence in any definition of the word.

Terry, I like you as a poster, although we often disagree. I give full credit to the brand power of ND which enabled it to negotiate that slight difference above. But I won't partake of this insanity of referring to the Irish as being independent for football, because it only adds to the delusion that they are when they no longer schedule all football games and decide who they will play and negotiate individually with those teams rather than through a conference.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[TheCusian]

I suffer from no delusions. I understand exactly what ND's status is. I would prefer ND to be fully independent in all sports. I don't like the very idea of conferences. But, whether you use my term or yours, it still is a unique status and, in my opinion, beats being totally tied down as any full conference member. ND still has to qualify for the playoffs and the big bowls as an independent, not a conference member. It still has scheduling control over 7 games, etc...etc. My definition of independent = "Not a conference member for football".

You've placed the idea of independence on a pedestal it doesn't deserve.

(10 years ago, the smart answer was NBC money - and that made sense. Having a lesser chance at a national title for pride and identity is just really odd.)

But - I respect you and your take. I guess it's a "if you were a ND fan it would make more sense" thing.

 

[TerryD]

You've placed the idea of independence on a pedestal it doesn't deserve.

(10 years ago, the smart answer was NBC money - and that made sense. Having a lesser chance at a national title for pride and identity is just really odd.)

But - I respect you and your take. I guess it's a "if you were a ND fan it would make more sense" thing.

Thanks. It is about tradition and identity. ND football has never been in a conference for 127 years. It sees itself as the national, Catholic university.

It is about self determination. It is about standing against a "one size fits all", "Borg-like" model of assimilation.

It is about being the rock in the steam, standing alone and fighting being forced to be like everyone else in a conference.

It is about not surrendering to those forces who want to push ND to a place it does not want to go.

It never really was about NBC or the most money. That was just a means to an end. Only non- ND fans thought that. NBC was/is merely the vehicle to stay independent.

It is about a lot of things, many having nothing to do with the playoffs and several having nothing to do with sports.

Anyway, whether others agree or understand, those are the reasons ND fans are so stubborn and adamant about not joining a football conference.

 

[CousCuse]

ND could play BYU in a 13tH Game for each. "The Holier Than Thou " Championship . If winner is Undefeated or 1 quality loss , their in.

 

[omniorange]

Thanks. It is about tradition and identity. ND football has never been in a conference for 127 years. It sees itself as the national, Catholic university.

It is about self determination. It is about standing against a "one size fits all", "Borg-like" model of assimilation.

It is about being the rock in the steam, standing alone and fighting being forced to be like everyone else in a conference.

It is about not surrendering to those forces who want to push ND to a place it does not want to go.

It never really was about NBC or the most money. That was just a means to an end.

It is about a lot of things, many having nothing to do with the playoffs and several having nothing to do with sports.

1. "It is about tradition and identity." It was when truly independent, but now isn't it more lie than truth?

2. "ND football has never been in a conference for 127 years." They are 5/8ths in one now. Time to recognize it, imho

3. "It sees itself as the national, Catholic university." Isn't this true regardless of being in a conference for football or not. Did ND stop being such when their basketball joined a conference fully? Do you see that stop being the case because ND adds three more conference games (whatever conference they did join)?

4. "It is about self determination. It is about standing against a "one size fits all", "Borg-like" model of assimilation." Truly admirable and poetic if it were still true. But the truth is ND has already been assimilated for all their other sports and of course being 5/8th assimilated now for football. Why hold onto the lie?

5. "It is about not surrendering to those forces who want to push ND to a place it does not want to go." Again admirable. But it went anyway for basketball when the NCAAs pushed it. They get a gold star for holding out as long as they did in football, but they got pushed where they didn't want to go back in 2006(?) when the BCS contract said, sorry ND, you will no longer receive a full conference share if you make a BCS Bowl, you only get an at-large take, just like any other extra conference team. And in 2012 they allowed themselves to be pushed into 5/8ths conference affiliation. Again, they didn't go full-in, but if there hasn't been full surrender on these athletic issues over time, can
you at least acknowledge that ND is near dead in the water at this point? As I mentioned in the other post, they are basically down to 3 games and keeping the NY6 Bowl payout when they actually are in one.

6. "It never really was about NBC or the most money. That was just a means to an end." I believe this to be true on your part. But prior to the massive explosion of sports tv channels, and then later the introduction of conference networks, the majority of Irish fans did laud (and if you are being honest lorded over the rest) the NBC contract as a trump card. It seems to have lessened in significance only since it's impact has diminished in the new landscape of sports.

Cheers,
Neil

PS - Let me add to the above, that what ND does or does not do in regard to joining a conference fully for football is not what I am addressing. I am only addressing the lie of calling the current reality "independence"

 

[TerryD]

Fighting and giving ground doesn't mean you quit fighting.

At some point you might just say this far but no further.

Or, you go down fighting rather than an abject surrender.

I lost a lot of interest in ND basketball when it joined the Big East in 1995.

I am an anti-conference guy, all conferences. I just don't like them and liked it better when many programs were independent.

I liked it much better when ND basketball was independent. I was a much bigger ND basketball fan in the Sixties to mid-Nineties than I am today.

In any event, ND is not a football conference member, playoff implications or not. I am glad of that.

If ND joins the ACC for football, and becomes just like everyone else, my interest will likely dimish there too.

Anyway, I have tried to give the ND perspective but will stop here.

 

[baggerbob]

I appreciate the elegance in your writing about this and your passion about it. It helps shed some light on the thinking - and I can respect that.

But I can't help think of you guys like a quaint bookstore looking at the internet as something that is outside of what you do and your identity. Only to realize too late that Amazon is eating your lunch. Tradition and identity are important - but how much of that needs to be wrapped up in your "independence" and how much is intact despite a conference affiliation?

Truthfully, the internet has made regions vs national kind of an old construct. ND's influence is national and won't be harmed more than it already is by playing 5 ACC games.

Finally - ceeding any available chances at a national championship in lieu of tradition is untenable. Saying "hey - we aren't in contention most of the time anyways" is saying "we care more about tradition than championships"... And all that playoff money.

I love hearing from Terry D, on many forums, on the issue of independence for Notre Dame Football, but Swarbrick already ceded independence to the ACC. Notre Dame for the first time in history, agreed to play 5 games against one conference for at least 10 years. They also are not picking the opponents, the ACC did, and each team gets to play them, an almost equal amount of times.

 

[TerryD]

Well, for me, it is a simple question:

Is ND a full member of any conference, including football, or not?

If yes, then it is not independent.

If no, then it is. Good night guys.

 

[omniorange]

Well, for me, it is a simple question:

Is ND a full member of any conference, including football, or not?

If yes, then it is not independent.

If no, then it is. Good night guys.

And just a couple of years ago that would have been phrased as "Is ND a member of any conference for football?" The very fact it is now phrased as above, demonstrates quite clearly that ND is not fully independent for football.

But keep deluding yourself it is. Have a good night.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

I love hearing from Terry D, on many forums, on the issue of independence for Notre Dame Football, but Swarbrick already ceded independence to the ACC. Notre Dame for the first time in history, agreed to play 5 games against one conference for at least 10 years. They also are not picking the opponents, the ACC did, and each team gets to play them, an almost equal amount of times.

There is no time limit to the agreement. It's for as long as ND wishes to remain a part of the ACC for all of their other sports. If they wish to stop playing those 5 games they would need to withdraw from the conference paying any exit fees required or negotiated. No difference then any other school withdrawing and then no longer having to play the 8 game schedule.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[TerryD]

And just a couple of years ago that would have been phrased as "Is ND a member of any conference for football?" The very fact it is now phrased as above, demonstrates quite clearly that ND is not fully independent for football.

But keep deluding yourself it is. Have a good night.

Cheers,
Neil

I thought that was my question.



Ok, here goes:

Is ND a member of any conference for football?



The answer is still "No". It is not.



It is not a member of any ACC division, it cannot play for an ACC title.

It still qualifies for the playoffs and New Year's Day bowls as an independent.

It still has its own stand alone, over the air, independent TV deal with NBC.

It still schedules 7 games on its own, it does not play a full ACC schedule.


But, If ND is a member of the ACC for football, then there is no need for any further action on the part of ND or the ACC, right?

Send ND checks for the full share ESPN amount, for FSU making the playoffs and for the Orange Bowl. Full membership has its privileges, right?


No delusion here. Have a good day.

 

[CousCuse]

TerryD. If ND joined full membership , you could play BC every year in Foxboro as your rivalry game. What could be a more Irish and Catholic tradition edifying drama than that . Why help USC when BC is the only other D1 catholic football playing university?

 

[SmilinBob]

TerryD. If ND joined full membership , you could play BC every year in Foxboro as your rivalry game. What could be a more Irish and Catholic tradition edifying drama than that . Why help USC when BC is the only other D1 catholic football playing university?

Good point and my guess is that the weather might have something to do with it. If this is the case then ND vs Miami could also be the Irish rival game as well.

 

[omniorange]

I thought that was my question.



Ok, here goes:

Is ND a member of any conference for football?



The answer is still "No". It is not.



It is not a member of any ACC division, it cannot play for an ACC title.

It still qualifies for the playoffs and New Year's Day bowls as an independent.

It still has its own stand alone, over the air, independent TV deal with NBC.

It still schedules 7 games on its own, it does not play a full ACC schedule.


But, If ND is a member of the ACC for football, then there is no need for any further action on the part of ND or the ACC, right?

Send ND checks for the full share ESPN amount, for FSU making the playoffs and for the Orange Bowl. Full membership has its privileges, right?


No delusion here. Have a good day.

And all of the above still only makes ND semi-independent.

The definition of independent basically means to be self-governing or not to be dependent of others. The definition of semi-independent is partially independent.

So in terms of football only, since ND is not self-governing in all of its games but rather has 5/12ths of that schedule determined by the ACC conference in terms of who is played and when - which of the above two definitions fit the reality better?

Another definition of independent is "showing a desire for freedom". In that regard, you and many other ND fans meet the definition. But desiring does not equal reality.

Delusional - having false or unrealistic opinions. The opinion that ND is independent for football is a false one. It doesn't match the reality that ND football is now semi-dependent for football.

I'm done, if you want to have the last word, be my guest. I'll read it but won't respond.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

TerryD. If ND joined full membership , you could play BC every year in Foxboro as your rivalry game. What could be a more Irish and Catholic tradition edifying drama than that . Why help USC when BC is the only other D1 catholic football playing university?

BC is not considered to be ND's rival by their fans. That would be USC.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

Just agree to disagree and its over. TerryD is a nice guy who doesn't post anything negative about other schools. We all know his position is that of William Wallace towards the English. He and significant portion of the ND alumni will never support anything but Independence for ND football.

ND football is now a semi-independent. They aren't officially a member of any conference, but 5/12's of their schedule is controlled by a conference. ND's administration is more progressive than its traditional fanbase. Just like social issues in this country change over time I am sure ND's independence will change. My cousin went to ND, my uncle went to ND. My cousin doesn't care about independence he cares about winning games, my uncle cares more about it. As the new generations of ND students see ACC games annually it will change the future alumni.

ND's annual games that can't go away are USC, Navy, Stanford. If ND can get rid of Michigan from their schedule which angered my family because they loved to hate UM then change can happen over time.

 

[nd1973]

If a conference dictates any portion of our schedule I at that time believe we're no longer truly "independent" . JMO

 

[sabach]

The fact of the matter is that ND has complete unfettered discretion over 7 of its games per year and SU has the same over 4 of its games per year. That does not make SU independent. ND is independent in terms of not being part of conference standings, not being eligible for a conference championship and not playing conference games (i.e the 5 ACC games they play do not count for the ACC schools in their conference record). Because of this, ND may be at a competitive disadvantage in years it finishes 11-1 and does not have a CCG to finish its resume on. For this reason Terry D is correct. However, because ND allows the ACC to dictate who and when they play 5 games per year, this independence is qualified. For this reason Neil is correct. For my money, I hope ND never joins the ACC. I do not want to see the two football schools I root for being in the same conference. I hate when SU plays ND. One of them has to lose.

 

[TheCusian]

The fact of the matter is that ND has complete unfettered discretion over 7 of its games per year and SU has the same over 4 of its games per year. That does not make SU independent. ND is independent in terms of not being part of conference standings, not being eligible for a conference championship and not playing conference games (i.e the 5 ACC games they play do not count for the ACC schools in their conference record). Because of this, ND may be at a competitive disadvantage in years it finishes 11-1 and does not have a CCG to finish its resume on. For this reason Terry D is correct. However, because ND allows the ACC to dictate who and when they play 5 games per year, this independence is qualified. For this reason Neil is correct. For my money, I hope ND never joins the ACC. I do not want to see the two football schools I root for being in the same conference. I hate when SU plays ND. One of them has to lose.

No tangible benefits from independence. Limited advantages to semi-membership in the ACC. A lesser chance at playing for a national championship.

That's a hell of a hill to die on for "tradition".

 

[sabach]

No tangible benefits from independence. Limited advantages to semi-membership in the ACC. A lesser chance at playing for a national championship.

That's a hell of a hill to die on for "tradition".

What are you talking about? What ND has now allows them to play USC/Stanford, Navy and four other schools nationally. That is a tangible benefit to a school that insists on a national schedule. Limited membership in the ACC allows ND to have five guaranteed scheduled games per year with the conference. Going forward that will be important as the P5 conferences schedule less and less outside of the P5. Limited membership in the ACC gives ND access to all of the ACC bowls. Without it, the only bowls ND could get into would be the playoffs and years in which there were not enough bowl teams from a conference to fill its allotment (like last year when the Irish had no bowl arrangement and were lucky the Big 12 could not fill the Pinstripe Bowl). ND gets to keep all of its money from New Years 6 bowls and keeps its NBC deal all to itself. Your post is amazing. Most people complain that ND's deal is unfair because they get too much and give too little. You seem to think that ND's deal is so bad it is causing them to die for tradition. I will acknowledge that semi-membership in the ACC has disadvantages in access to the playoffs for ND in years it finishes at 11-1 with no conference championship. But that is hardly something that is going to cause the ND football program to die on tradition.