Numbers don't lie player development under this Assistant coaching staff has stagnated since 2013

[Cusefan0307]

Is Battle/Richardson/Howard and potential Joseph replacement going to be better than G/Cooney this year?

I want to say yes, but a lot of it depends on the development of Howard. He could be the first legit PG we have had since Ennis, but he needs to clean up his handle and become more of a threat. Battle has Gbinije like potential, but he won't be as good as G was this year.

We need Malachi to take a step forward. Right now his numbers aren't that much different from Cooney so if he doesn't improve his efficiency we will be talking about him like we talk about Cooney. I'm not confident we get a replacement for Joseph this late in the game, a fifth year isn't going to want to come here with 3 other guards on the roster. Guard defense may take a step back next year, which could offset in any increase in offensive production.

The biggest improvement next year will be on the frontline. Lydon/Chukwu/DC/Roberson/Moyer will be a huge upgrade over what we have this year. We're at our best when our frontcourt is elite. I don't see us getting routinely trounced on the boards next year like we do this year. Chukwu/Lydon are both great shot blockers, with Chukwu being an elite shot blocker.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I just want to respond to this because kj is not dead yet. If I remember correctly and thats a big if, allen griffin was similair to kj and turned out to be a pretty good senior player, hand clapper, just saying he busted out this year but lets not bury him yet. Again not sure about my facts, just memories.

Griffin was a lot different. He played as a soph then had his minutes cut as a JR but still played every game. On a team that is desperate for minutes at G, KJ got zero minutes.

 

[Cowtown]

I see a lot of fans asking what comes down to "Why didn't we recruit better talent?" Geez, I'm sure the staff tried. Does anyone seriously think all the top kids in the country every year all want to some to SU? If a player doesn't want to some to Syracuse, there's nothing you can do about that. For although SU is number one with all of us, it obviously isn't with everybody else, and that's the 400 pound gorilla in the room no one wants to look at. So although I can't say for certain, I'll bet sometimes the staff just has to settle for second echelon talent, which unfortunately doesn't always develop. There's no magic wand, and hard work doesn't always translate to better play. It did for Andy Rautins, and unfortunately much less so for Trevor Cooney.

Recruiting is a Faustian bargain sometimes. How much time and effort went into landing top talents like Chris McCullough or Donte Greene, with ultimately so little to show for it? Those were certainly, to my way of thinking, recruiting busts. What did they bring do at SU? Not very much. But what can you do about it? In order to compete at the top, you need that kind of talent, and to get it, it seems you have to prostitute the entire program to it. Another problem is that you can't tell where a kid's ceiling is. Josh Wright ran up numbers like a gas pump in HS, and there was much pressure to land a local kid with that kind of star quality/potential. But he turned into one of the most fundamentally unwatchable players ever to wear Orange. Mookie Jones? Louie McCroskey? Dayshaun Wright? Kaleb Joseph? Who would ever want to be a recruiter?

 

[Deano]

Again my point is we have not been recruiting well, proof is in our roster. Why do people use FUTURE classes to blame JB as to why PAST classes are poor?

Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel, but that's cause once UK and the money man got involved we dropped out.

 

[Alsacs]

I see a lot of fans asking what comes down to "Why didn't we recruit better talent?" Geez, I'm sure the staff tried. Does anyone seriously think all the top kids in the country every year all want to some to SU? If a player doesn't want to some to Syracuse, there's nothing you can do about that. For although SU is number one with all of us, it obviously isn't with everybody else, and that's the 400 pound gorilla in the room no one wants to look at. So although I can't say for certain, I'll bet sometimes the staff just has to settle for second echelon talent, which unfortunately doesn't always develop. There's no magic wand, and hard work doesn't always translate to better play. It did for Andy Rautins, and unfortunately much less so for Trevor Cooney.

Recruiting is a Faustian bargain sometimes. How much time and effort went into landing top talents like Chris McCullough or Dante Greene, with ultimately so little to show for it? Those were certainly, to my way of thinking, recruiting busts. What did they bring do at SU? Not very much. But what can you do about it? In order to compete at the top, you need that kind of talent, and to get it, it seems you have to prostitute the entire program to it. Another problem is that you can't tell where a kid's ceiling is. Josh Wright ran up numbers like a gas pump in HS, and there was much pressure to land a local kid with that kind of star quality/potential. But he turned into one of the most fundamentally unwatchable players ever to wear Orange. Mookie Jones? Louie McCroskey? Dayshaun Wright? Kaleb Joseph? Who would ever want to be a recruiter?

You aware we didn't pursue Jamal Murray right? There are numerous stories recently about guys we have passed up.

Josh Wright was chosen by the SU staff over Kyle Lowry. Syracuse has whiffed on recruiting. Cooney hasn't been challenged by any new recruits that is on the staff. Cooney shouldn't have been expected to carry the team when it is too much for him.

 

[br801]

We need Malachi to take a step forward. Right now his numbers aren't that much different from Cooney so if he doesn't improve his efficiency we will be talking about him like we talk about Cooney. I'm not confident we get a replacement for Joseph this late in the game, a fifth year isn't going to want to come here with 3 other guards on the roster. Guard defense may take a step back next year, which could offset in any increase in offensive production.

Richardson's shooting numbers may be similar to Cooney's on the surface, but that's deceiving, as he has improved his 3-point shooting to around 40% in ACC play, and he is already quite adept at getting to the rim and drawing contact (if not always finishing). He's also already a much better passer and rebounder than Cooney has ever been. He will have some catching up to do as far as defending at the top of the zone, but I would expect him to be more than adequate in that area next season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Richardson's shooting numbers may be similar to Cooney's on the surface, but that's deceiving, as he has improved his 3-point shooting to around 40% in ACC play, and he is already quite adept at getting to the rim and drawing contact (if not always finishing). He's also already a much better passer and rebounder than Cooney has ever been. He will have some catching up to do as far as defending at the top of the zone, but I would expect him to be more than adequate in that area next season.

Good points, but I imagine at worst he will be the 2nd option on offense next year, and the first option as far as guards go, so I think he will attract more defensive attention which may offset any improvements he makes. It's one of the reasons I hope the goal is to develop the offense more around Lydon next year as it is so easy for him to make shots. He just needs to improve his handle.

 

[RF2044]

We are recruiting top 100 players

2011
MCW 5 star, 1st round NBA pick. 2 years
Rak Christmas 5 star, 2nd round pick, 4 years he developed but he was a 5 star kid.
Cooney 3 star, 5 years

2012
Dejuan Coleman 4 star, 4 years
Jerami Grant 4 star, 2years,2nd round NBA pick

2013
Tyler Ennis 4 star, 1st round pick, 1 year
BJ Johnson 3 star, 2 years transfer
Ron Patterson 3 star, 2 years transfer
Tyler Roberson 4 star,3 years
Chino Obohok, 3 star, 3 years

2014
Chris McCollough 5 star, 1st round pick, 1 year
Kaleb Joseph 4 star, 2 years

2015 thank goodness for this class
Malachi Richardson 4 star, 1 year
Tyler Lydon 4 star, 1 year
Frank Howard 4 star, 1 year

Non-recruit: Mike Gbinije 4 star from Duke. He developed so I guess we can give the staff credit for him but I don't know who.

Our assistants are not developing the talent. Murphy/ and other assistants have been missed. Hopkins can recruit no doubt but what are Gerry/Autry doing on staff? They haven't been great recruiters that is Hop. Who is working with the guard? Who is working with the forwards? Who is working with the Big men?

Alsacs, I don't agree with the premise of your OP.

I think the bigger fundamental issue is that we recruited two one-and-dones during the short span of time you reference, and didn't benefit from either of them taking the next step. Ennis had a good freshman year--no question--but he would have been better that second year. Put him on last year's team, where PG was our lone / main weakness, and we're top 10 wire-to-wire.

McCullough--we essentially got nothing from him last year, and then he bounced--which was his perrogative, not faulting him for going pro. Very highly rated player, nearly zero benefit from his time on the hill. Let that sink in for a minute.

We land one and done types who generally aren't truly "elite" / transcendent, and we don't benefit from those guys maximizing their capabilities, because they are gone before they do.

The other critical factor is the choices we've made at PG since 2013...and the player's we've turned away. We took Ennis over Monte Morris [huge miss here, considering how badly Morris wanted to come here] and Rysheed Jordan. We took Joseph over JaQuan Newton--another kid who wanted to come here. Nothing against Ennis, who obviously was a first round caliber talent, but any of those other players would have helped us more than who we landed. Just think about if Morris -- who is kicking a$$ at ISU and has them top 10-ish in his junior year -- had been our point guard the last THREE YEARS. Or if we had Newton manning the point the last two instead of Joseph. Totally different story.

If McCullough had come back this year, imagine plugging him in at center instead of Coleman / Lydon the human sieve.

Ultimately, we've had a couple of bad breaks these past couple of years that have undermined things. No more, no less. I know that many want to point to some conspiracy or grand shortcoming of the coaching staff, but I honestly don't think it is that at all.

 

[Alsacs]

Alsacs, I don't agree with the premise of your OP.

I think the bigger fundamental issue is that we recruited two one-and-dones during the short span of time you reference, and didn't benefit from either of them taking the next step. Ennis had a good freshman year--no question--but he would have been better that second year. Put him on last year's team, where PG was our lone / main weakness, and we're top 10 wire-to-wire.

McCullough--we essentially got nothing from him last year, and then he bounced--which was his perrogative, not faulting him for going pro. Very highly rated player, nearly zero benefit from his time on the hill. Let that sink in for a minute.

We land one and done types who generally aren't truly "elite" / transcendent, and we don't benefit from those guys maximizing their capabilities, because they are gone before they do.

The other critical factor is the choices we've made at PG since 2013...and the player's we've turned away. We took Ennis over Monte Morris [huge miss here, considering how badly Morris wanted to come here] and Rysheed Jordan. We took Joseph over JaQuan Newton--another kid who wanted to come here. Nothing against Ennis, who obviously was a first round caliber talent, but any of those other players would have helped us more than who we landed. Just think about if Morris -- who is kicking a$$ at ISU and has them top 10-ish in his junior year -- had been our point guard the last THREE YEARS. Or if we had Newton manning the point the last two instead of Joseph. Totally different story.

If McCullough had come back this year, imagine plugging him in at center instead of Coleman / Lydon the human sieve.

Ultimately, we've had a couple of bad breaks these past couple of years that have undermined things. No more, no less. I know that many want to point to some conspiracy or grand shortcoming of the coaching staff, but I honestly don't think it is that at all.

I am frustrated but the lack of options in the backcourt. We haven't brought in as many guys as we could have. The staff has hurt Cooney. Cooney shouldn't be depended on as much as he has and we are wasting Gbinije this year like we wasted Christmas last year.

That is the frustration.

 

[Dave85]

Ultimately, we've had a couple of bad breaks these past couple of years that have undermined things. No more, no less. I know that many want to point to some conspiracy or grand shortcoming of the coaching staff, but I honestly don't think it is that at all.

I agree. The numbers may be telling a story but I do not think it has to do with the staff. Players have to win games.

If Kaleb wasn't such a bust, and if CMAC stayed one more year, and if Diagne had a real HS diploma, we would probably not be having this conversation. Those are 3 big disappointments. Time to move on.

One thing is for certain, the drama that is Orange basketball will continue next year as well.

 

[RF2044]

I am frustrated but the lack of options in the backcourt. We haven't brought in as many guys as we could have. The staff has hurt Cooney. Cooney shouldn't be depended on as much as he has and we are wasting Gbinije this year like we wasted Christmas last year.

That is the frustration.

Just to be clear, not criticizing your OP--it was thought provoking, well thought out, and logical. I just happen to respectfully disagree with the premise.

But one thing we agree 100% on is how frustrating the situation is.

 

[RF2044]

I agree. The numbers may be telling a story but I do not think it has to do with the staff. Players have to win games.

If Kaleb wasn't such a bust, and if CMAC stayed one more year, and if Diagne had a real HS diploma, we would probably not be having this conversation. Those are 3 big disappointments. Time to move on.

One thing is for certain, the drama that is Orange basketball will continue next year as well.

I forgot about Diagne...

 

[Ward]

Alsacs, I don't agree with the premise of your OP.

I think the bigger fundamental issue is that we recruited two one-and-dones during the short span of time you reference, and didn't benefit from either of them taking the next step. Ennis had a good freshman year--no question--but he would have been better that second year. Put him on last year's team, where PG was our lone / main weakness, and we're top 10 wire-to-wire.

McCullough--we essentially got nothing from him last year, and then he bounced--which was his perrogative, not faulting him for going pro. Very highly rated player, nearly zero benefit from his time on the hill. Let that sink in for a minute.

We land one and done types who generally aren't truly "elite" / transcendent, and we don't benefit from those guys maximizing their capabilities, because they are gone before they do.

The other critical factor is the choices we've made at PG since 2013...and the player's we've turned away. We took Ennis over Monte Morris [huge miss here, considering how badly Morris wanted to come here] and Rysheed Jordan. We took Joseph over JaQuan Newton--another kid who wanted to come here. Nothing against Ennis, who obviously was a first round caliber talent, but any of those other players would have helped us more than who we landed. Just think about if Morris -- who is kicking a$$ at ISU and has them top 10-ish in his junior year -- had been our point guard the last THREE YEARS. Or if we had Newton manning the point the last two instead of Joseph. Totally different story.

If McCullough had come back this year, imagine plugging him in at center instead of Coleman / Lydon the human sieve.

Ultimately, we've had a couple of bad breaks these past couple of years that have undermined things. No more, no less. I know that many want to point to some conspiracy or grand shortcoming of the coaching staff, but I honestly don't think it is that at all.

Good points, we no doubt have suffered from some tough breaks (some self inflicted, some not) that all seemed to create a perfect storm the last couple years.

With Ennis I don't have much of a problem with us taking him over Morris. The staff decided early on he was our guy and went all out for him, he ended up even better than anyone could've hoped and we lost him. I cringe at the thought of us taking Buss over Morris as the second guard in that class. Morris would've been a great guy to pair with Ennis at times and then the bigger piece is because we have a back-up point guard Gbinije is more effective in the 13-14 season because he's just playing and not trying to learn a foreign position. Turning my stomach just thinking about how much of a difference that would've made for our prospects in March that year and then our success the next two years too.

McCullough, and this isn't just directed at you, but I feel like he gets unfairly categorized as a bust or flop on here. The guy was really good, had a slump (which coincided with JB ripping his NBA prospects in public), then tore his knee up and was done. I think he would've had a really good year for us if he stayed healthy.

I also think McCullough's impact on this year's team is overblown. He didn't start playing for Brooklyn until mid-late February. That's with 24 hour access to some of the best training and rehab facilities, so who knows when he comes back if he's just rehabbing up at SU. It would've been a great shot in the arm for us down the stretch of the season but wouldn't have made a difference the first 80% of the season. Now, if he is playing for us the last couple weeks and for postseason play I feel MUCH better about our chance to make a big run so I will definitely give you that.

 

[pulaski74]

Cool. The intellectual (and equally wrong) equivalent to the "stars don't matter" argument on the football board.

standard reason no one likes cnyer's. Your sarcasm is " out of this county ".

 

[pulaski74]

Cool. The intellectual (and equally wrong) equivalent to the "stars don't matter" argument on the football board.

And I assume you r born and bread in cny. Wake up, whole big world out there.

 

[Ajflood12]

I'm more worried by the lack of development in Cooney than any player of recent memory. He simply did not improve in 5 years - that is on the staff because we know the kid puts in the work. If G-mac wasn't an alum people would be asking many more questions.

He actually developed quite a bit...his first year all he could do was jack up threes. After 5 years he is a above average defender, can bring the ball up the floor and plays his butt off. Can't put on the coaching staff that he is a headcase and cannot consistently put the ball in the hoop.

 

[Ringostar57]

It's simple...we are not recruiting/getting the derrick colemans the Pearl Washingtons the billy Owensis the John Wallaces the Carmelo Anthonys the Sherman Douglases the Lawrence Motens. We aren't even getting the Arinze Onuakus and the Adrian Autrys. What we are getting are defensive robots for the Zone fast becoming the twilight zone.

 

[br801]

It's simple...we are not recruiting/getting the derrick colemans the Pearl Washingtons the billy Owensis the John Wallaces the Carmelo Anthonys the Sherman Douglases the Lawrence Motens. We aren't even getting the Arinze Onuakus and the Adrian Autrys. What we are getting are defensive robots for the Zone fast becoming the twilight zone.

Your expectations are unreasonably high. Those first seven players you listed are arguably among the top ten players to ever come through the program; obviously you don't land players like that every year. Still, you might have noticed that Richardson and Lydon are two gifted offensive talents who likely will be playing in the NBA someday soon.

 

[HOFCeluck]

standard reason no one likes cnyer's. Your sarcasm is " out of this county ".

And I assume you r born and bread in cny. Wake up, whole big world out there.

 

[OttoMets]

It's simple...we are not recruiting/getting the derrick colemans the Pearl Washingtons the billy Owensis the John Wallaces the Carmelo Anthonys the Sherman Douglases the Lawrence Motens. We aren't even getting the Arinze Onuakus and the Adrian Autrys. What we are getting are defensive robots for the Zone fast becoming the twilight zone.

Your first sentence will distract some from a valid point.

We're not getting the Autrys, Onuakus, Lucious Jacksons. In too many instances this decade, we've gone for the big prototypical zone kid at the expense of finding a recruit with innate basketball skills, height and standing reach be damned.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Your first sentence will distract some from a valid point.

We're not getting the Autrys, Onuakus, Lucious Jacksons. In too many instances this decade, we've gone for the big prototypical zone kid at the expense of finding a recruit with innate basketball skills, height and standing reach be damned.

Tyler Lydon and Malachi Richardson aren't offensive players?!?

 

[OttoMets]

Tyler Lydon and Malachi Richardson aren't offensive players?!?

Of course I didn't say that we only recruit the offensively limited. I said we've done so too often.

Richardson, Lydon, and Howard are the three most offensively skilled players on this team.

 

[Townie72]

Your first sentence will distract some from a valid point.

We're not getting the Autrys, Onuakus, Lucious Jacksons. In too many instances this decade, we've gone for the big prototypical zone kid at the expense of finding a recruit with innate basketball skills, height and standing reach be damned.

Another post that underneath is says, "JB is committed to the Zone Defense. He has recruited players to play the Zone Defense and that means that players have skill deficits in other areas.

This is one of the three or four criticisms of JB that underlie 50% of the posts on this board. Except when SU wins ... and they disappear for a while or until the next loss.

To save time both typing and reading, I submit that we give these complaints numbers.

So instead of "Boeheim plays too few players and as a result the team is too tired to play effectively at the end of a game" could be 4.

And "Boeheim plays too few players and as a result the team is too tired to play effectively at the end of a season" could be #5.

 

[Bayside44]

Another post that underneath is says, "JB is committed to the Zone Defense. He has recruited players to play the Zone Defense and that means that players have skill deficits in other areas.

This is one of the three or four criticisms of JB that underlie 50% of the posts on this board. Except when SU wins ... and they disappear for a while or until the next loss.

To save time both typing and reading, I submit that we give these complaints numbers.

So instead of "Boeheim plays too few players and as a result the team is too tired to play effectively at the end of a game" could be 4.

And "Boeheim plays too few players and as a result the team is too tired to play effectively at the end of a season" could be #5.

You going to the game tomorrow?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Of course I didn't say that we only recruit the offensively limited. I said we've done so too often.

Richardson, Lydon, and Howard are the three most offensively skilled players on this team.

Nah...... howard can't shoot and averages less than 2 ppg