Numbers don't lie player development under this Assistant coaching staff has stagnated since 2013

[pfister1]

By the way, for the "Our coaches don't develop players" crowd.

Does the staff get credit for G transforming from a small forward to a serviceable point guard? I understand that he may not be Pearl or Sherm, but he is light years ahead of where he would have been had he tried to be the primary point guard in 2013-14.

And, how about the fact that in 2013-14 he shot 35% from 3 and made 14 threes on the season. Right now he stands at 40% with 81 made threes.

Is the argument that the staff doesn't develop players, or is it really that they haven't developed any consensus All Americans recently.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Stud recruiters should bring in studs. Who are the McD AA or Jordans that we are bringing in? GMac and Red have been here 5 years. Hop over 20. Go ahead and look at the data. Prove me wrong if it is so easy.

These are the McDonald's AA's we've had in the last 10 years:

Eric Devendorf
Jonny Flynn
Donte Greene
Fab Melo
Michael Carter-Williams
Rakim Christmas
DaJuan Coleman
Malachi Richardson

And Paul Harris had enough votes but got rejected by Morgan Wooten. Tyler Ennis was also thought to be a Mickey Dee's, but just missed the cut. Thomas Bryant also would have been one if he made it here.

Most schools not named Duke or Carolina would kill for that list. It's the best we have recruited since the late 1980s.

 

[Cowtown]

By the way, for the "Our coaches don't develop players" crowd.

Does the staff get credit for G transforming from a small forward to a serviceable point guard? I understand that he may not be Pearl or Sherm, but he is light years ahead of where he would have been had he tried to be the primary point guard in 2013-14.

And, how about the fact that in 2013-14 he shot 35% from 3 and made 14 threes on the season. Right now he stands at 40% with 81 made threes.

Is the argument that the staff doesn't develop players, or is it really that they haven't developed any consensus All Americans recently.

I'm betting those types also think the staff "developed" Carmelo Anthony, LOL!

 

[Alsacs]

I'm betting those types also think the staff "developed" Carmelo Anthony, LOL!

Melo was the #1 recruit his year in HS he ended up #2 behind A'Mare Stoudmaire he went straight to the NBA.

Carmelo was a lot of analysts national Freshman/Newcomer of the Year before the year started. We as fans knew he was special. Melo outtalented 99% of college basketball that year. If we were bringing in top 5 talents each year player development would matter less. We are bringing in top 20/top 50 kids which are elite but still need development.

The staff developed Melo by the way and only 1 assistant from that staff is on the on the bench Mike Hopkins. Who is our best assistant coach right now as he is the best recruiter.

 

[Townie72]

You going to the game tomorrow?

I'm in Mexico.

 

[TheCusian]

Our recruiting of guards has been awful. Mike G isn't a guard. Neither is Malachi. The last 5 recruiting classes we only have Ennis to show for it.

It's been good enough this year. If we rebounded and blocked shots like we normally do we'd be top 5 in the ACC, IMO.

I do think we've not had elite guards in awhile.

 

[TheCusian]

You aware we didn't pursue Jamal Murray right? There are numerous stories recently about guys we have passed up. Josh Wright was chosen by the SU staff over Kyle Lowry. Syracuse has whiffed on recruiting. Cooney hasn't been challenged by any new recruits that is on the staff. Cooney shouldn't have been expected to carry the team when it is too much for him.

Everyone whiffs on recruiting. We've had a bad run.

 

[Francis03]

These are the McDonald's AA's we've had in the last 10 years:

Eric Devendorf
Jonny Flynn
Donte Greene
Fab Melo
Michael Carter-Williams
Rakim Christmas
DaJuan Coleman
Malachi Richardson

And Paul Harris had enough votes but got rejected by Morgan Wooten. Tyler Ennis was also thought to be a Mickey Dee's, but just missed the cut. Thomas Bryant also would have been one if he made it here.

Most schools not named Duke or Carolina would kill for that list. It's the best we have recruited since the late 1980s.

McCullough would've been a burger boy as well, but wasn't eligible on the ballot due to being a 5th year HS player.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I have no clue how Tyus Battle is not one.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

These are the McDonald's AA's we've had in the last 10 years:

Eric Devendorf
Jonny Flynn
Donte Greene
Fab Melo
Michael Carter-Williams
Rakim Christmas
DaJuan Coleman
Malachi Richardson

And Paul Harris had enough votes but got rejected by Morgan Wooten. Tyler Ennis was also thought to be a Mickey Dee's, but just missed the cut. Thomas Bryant also would have been one if he made it here.

Most schools not named Duke or Carolina would kill for that list. It's the best we have recruited since the late 1980s.

That is 8 guys over the last 12 years. If you drop Devo it becomes 7 guys over the last 10 years which is much better. But most of those guys came from former assistants who are no longer here. Since it has been Hop, GMac, and Autry we have pulled in one in the last 4 years. That isn't good enough.

 

[Cowtown]

Melo was the #1 recruit his year in HS he ended up #2 behind A'Mare Stoudmaire he went straight to the NBA.

Carmelo was a lot of analysts national Freshman/Newcomer of the Year before the year started. We as fans knew he was special. Melo outtalented 99% of college basketball that year. If we were bringing in top 5 talents each year player development would matter less. We are bringing in top 20/top 50 kids which are elite but still need development.

The staff developed Melo by the way and only 1 assistant from that staff is on the on the bench Mike Hopkins. Who is our best assistant coach right now as he is the best recruiter.

Carmelo Anthony was NBA ready the first day he stepped onto the SU campus. Just IMHO, of course.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That is 8 guys over the last 12 years. If you drop Devo it becomes 7 guys over the last 10 years which is much better. But most of those guys came from former assistants who are no longer here. Since it has been Hop, GMac, and Autry we have pulled in one in the last 4 years. That isn't good enough.

Autry has been here since 11. Before that we had Rob Murphy who had been here since 2004. Who are all these assistants you speak of? Bernie Fine certainly wasn't getting us players. Recruting skyrocketed when Hopkins took over for Fine in the late 90's early oughts.

 

[Francis03]

Autry has been here since 11. Before that we had Rob Murphy who had been here since 2004. Who are all these assistants you speak of? Bernie Fine certainly wasn't getting us players. Recruting skyrocketed when Hopkins took over for Fine in the late 90's early oughts.

Not sure if it matters much since dude cost us a chance of the chip in 2012, but Bernie played a big part in helping us land Fabricio De Melo.

 

[two3zone]

Not sure if it matters much since dude cost us a chance of the chip in 2012, but Bernie played a big part in helping us land Fabricio De Melo.

He may have cost us a chance but we wouldn't have had a chance without him. He was probably the teams most important player and it was impossible for production and presence to be even close to replicated.

That team I honestly believe could have beaten UK and it was probably my favorite SU team to watch. Hard to believe we only lost one game with Fab in the lineup.

 

[Francis03]

He may have cost us a chance but we wouldn't have had a chance without him. He was probably the teams most important player and it was impossible for production and presence to be even close to replicated.

That team I honestly believe could have beaten UK and it was probably my favorite SU team to watch. Hard to believe we only lost one game with Fab in the lineup.

Kentucky's weakness that year was perimeter shooting and depth. No doubt with Fab that we could've beaten them. Plus I don't think either Teague or Lamb would've slowed down Dion.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

And sometimes inclusion on that team is more a function of where you are headed for college than actual worthiness...

When we get one, we're thrilled. When we don't, half of us pretend the scouts who watch all those high school games don't know what they're looking at, and the other half claim conspiracy theories and that our guys deserved to make it.

 

[CaptainJ]

It looks like I am going to have to temporarily shelve the parody of the Metallica cover of a Misfits song, which I've named "Buy Bye By, Baye Keita". All of this defamation of Bernie Fine is riling me up. I think I am going to follow up my Blundered Presser single with a parody that Hey Mickey song in Bernie's honor. Hop may be a great recruiter(I guess #4 in the nation, per ESPN "insider", but do folks seriously contend we've developed our bigs better since Bernie was shown the door for being the "Marriott" of the moment? (I think that will make a good line in the song over this beat)

 

[Townie72]

When we get one, we're thrilled. When we don't, half of us pretend the scouts who watch all those high school games don't know what they're looking at, and the other half claim conspiracy theories and that our guys deserved to make it.

Wait a minute!

You don't actually believe that someone actually watches these guys play ... except an an All Star game, do you?

These so-called scouts don't have enough days in the year or budgets to do this sort of thineg.

 

[pfister1]

Wait a minute!

You don't actually believe that someone actually watches these guys play ... except an an All Star game, do you?

These so-called scouts don't have enough days in the year or budgets to do this sort of thineg.

You mean these player rating aren't based on Science?

 

[JOC44]

I think there's a combination of small sample size and nostalgia for the good old days that is coloring the analysis here. It seems that the premise is that recent misses show that the current assistants can't develop and/or recruit players. And I see a longing for the prior crew of assistants (basically, Rob Murphy, Hop, and Fine). But that was the crew of assistants who (for the most part) coached up the post-championship class of Demetris Nichols, Terrance Roberts, and Mookie Watkins, a class that everyone would view as a disappointment. And Paul Harris didn't develop as anyone would hope under those assistants, nor did Josh Wright. But I wouldn't say the prior assistants were terrible.

The reality is that in college basketball the rosters are so small that a handful of guys who don't develop can crush a program, particularly if those guys stay around for four years. It's hard to recruit behind them because they are viewed as an obstacle to playing time but they never actually perform well enough to make the team great.

Some players miss because they get to college and don't work hard. Some miss because they get to college and have stage fright. Some don't have the body type or skill set to match their program. Some just weren't as good as you thought.

We are bringing in good talent. I think the last couple of years are attributable to a few factors: (1) probation hanging over our heads; (2) a few guys going pro when they just as easily could have decided to come back for another year (i.e., right or wrong, it wasn't a slam dunk that they HAD to go); (3) a few more misses than usual; and (4) the failure to bring in a two-guard of note in the four years between Cooney and Richardson.

There's nothing on that list that isn't fixed if the two freshmen return and Battle and Moyer show up as ready to play rotation minutes. If those things happen, we're back in business.

 

[IthacaMatt]

McCullough would've been a burger boy as well, but wasn't eligible on the ballot due to being a 5th year HS player.

Yep, preps don't count.

 

[IthacaMatt]

He may have cost us a chance but we wouldn't have had a chance without him. He was probably the teams most important player and it was impossible for production and presence to be even close to replicated.

That team I honestly believe could have beaten UK and it was probably my favorite SU team to watch. Hard to believe we only lost one game with Fab in the lineup.

That would have been an all-time great final.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Wait a minute!

You don't actually believe that someone actually watches these guys play ... except an an All Star game, do you?

These so-called scouts don't have enough days in the year or budgets to do this sort of thineg.

That's why they cover them in the summer on the AAU circuit. That's where the bulk of the rankings come from, when most of these guys are playing each other head to head.

 

[Townie72]

That's why they cover them in the summer on the AAU circuit. That's where the bulk of the rankings come from, when most of these guys are playing each other head to head.

Believe what you want to believe.

My belief is that the hucksters that are selling this stuff to the information-starved fan bases are making a lot of it up. Or depending on press reports or rumors or talking to some coaches they know and friends. Of course, the real indicator is who is being recruited by whom.

It's a huge scam that people badly want to believe in.

I've seen in work in the DC area. The five stars who play for DC Assault and are recruited by UNC and Duke are pretty easy. The rest of it is hokkum.

I'm closer to HS lacrosse which I have watched a lot of. There's it's even more laughable,

 

[IthacaMatt]

Believe what you want to believe.

My belief is that the hucksters that are selling this stuff to the information-starved fan bases are making a lot of it up. Or depending on press reports or rumors or talking to some coaches they know and friends. Of course, the real indicator is who is being recruited by whom.

It's a huge scam that people badly want to believe in.

I've seen in work in the DC area. The five stars who play for DC Assault and are recruited by UNC and Duke are pretty easy. The rest of it is hokkum.

I'm closer to HS lacrosse which I have watched a lot of. There's it's even more laughable,

I used to attend ABCD Camp in Hackensack every July for 7 years, writing about SU prospects for the board, back in the 90s and early 2000s. I had press credentials and sat with many of the experts - Clark Francis, Brick Oettinger and others. I also spoke with a lot of AAU coaches and college coaches, to learn what they were looking for when they watched prospects. Over the course of the summer, the top guys (who people subscribe to for their rankings and evaluations) have seen most players at least 5 times or so, maybe more, and they have seen them head-to-head against other elite prospects, not just against the kids they play in their local high school leagues. There is some group think, and the ratings guys do talk to each other.

Big kids with ball skills tend to get rated mostly highly, even though big men take time to develop. Just look at Coleman and Christmas, both of whom were McDonalds' AAs. I would say that the top 30-40 players are reasonably accurate. Star rankings are probably more accurate than a specific number - 5 stars are generally elite, 4 stars are generally going to be very good college players, and among them, they usually make up the top 75 or so. After that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.