NYT on Carolina cheating

[Bayside44]

How is Oregon dirtier? I really don't know.

The University of Nike. Just more the ridiculousness of amateur sports.

 

[tbonezone]

UNC's sole defense seems to be predicated on the misguided notion that since these classes were available to every student they provided no advantage to their "scholar" athletes. that is just absurd and goes to the heart of "institutional control". whoever's in charge of coordinating academics and compliance surely knew there was an issue involving candy grades at the school and never acted to correct it. 10x worse than what happened at SU.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

The University of Nike. Just more the ridiculousness of amateur sports.

Ah. Ok got it.

 

[Consigliere]

UNC's sole defense seems to be predicated on the misguided notion that since these classes were available to every student they provided no advantage to their "scholar" athletes. that is just absurd and goes to the heart of "institutional control". whoever's in charge of coordinating academics and compliance surely knew there was an issue involving candy grades at the school and never acted to correct it. 10x worse than what happened at SU.

And rebuttal to that defense would be to look at the percentage of revenue generating scholar athletes enrolled in the African American Studies program vs. the percentage from the student body as a whole. Mission statement of the program was to keep football and basketball players eligible.

 

[SBU72]

Like I said, you all will believe what you want and your mind is already made up so trying to engage in any kind of meaningful discourse is a waste of energy and will prob be fruitless. Needless to say the national media has been clueless to the actual facts of this case for a long long time and this nyt article is just hype generated on final four weekend, and does nothing but continue to parrot blatant lies that is only worthy of some second rate rag paper. Quite unfortunate.

But as I said unc has some heavy hitters on their side who by the time this is over will expose the NCAA hypocrisy for what it is and a field day will be had. Until then, you all can keep believing what you'd like.

Why don't you just say that is all FAKE NEWS.

 

[HoustonCuse]

And rebuttal to that defense would be to look at the percentage of revenue generating scholar athletes enrolled in the African American Studies program vs. the percentage from the student body as a whole. Mission statement of the program was to keep football and basketball players eligible.

Nah, it's foolish on its face. So if Boeheim bought Lydon a tractor it was a violation, but if he bought another non-athlete student a tractor also then its fine? No way. If the NCAA goes for this ruse they are dumber or more crooked than I thought.

 

[pearl31]

throw around cliches and parrot the official lines

:rolling:

 

[chlywtr]

I'm not going to pretend to understand all the nuances of this investigation. So what are you asserting is afoot?

NCAA witch hunt
Media conspiracy
Rogue administrator(s)
Something wrong involving UNC athletes, but excluding UNC men's hoops
Nothing wrong
Defective cans

he hates these cans!

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I'm still waiting for that guy to say something. ANYTHING. This thread was like a ten minute joke with no punchline. It was like, "if you don't know, i'm not gonna tell you." It was like, "I know more than the Generals...but i'm not gonna tell you."

So, what is happening here? It's a loophole by which UNC expects to escape?
• The classes were available to everyone, so it's not within NCAA purview? But, then, isn't it any easy cheat, for a program to offer a thousand dollars a week to students in the Library Monitor Program, which 'employs' twenty students per semester. 15 athletes and 5 'randoms?' If the 'out' is simply that the advantages were dealt to more than just athletes, and that holds water, it's a simple matter for everyone to abuse the system in the same way. For every fifteen papers a tutor writes for a basketball player, he must write one for a non-athlete. Solved.
• How can the NCAA ignore that fake classes were significantly contributory toward maintaining GPAs for eligibility? And that if a kid graduated with one of them on his transcript, the graduation itself is invalid, which affects the team's APR?
• There is a statue[sic] of limitations on violations? "They had their chance?"
• How can fans rationalize institutional cheating? This isn't one or two tutors showing 'charity' to a foreign student. This is a system, set up to game the other system. Why is it necessary to prove that it was done exclusively for the benefit of athletes? Shouldn't the question be, what other possible benefit would there be for non-athletes? Even if you say it maintains the revenue stream (tuition) from students who might otherwise 'flunk out,' you could answer that with 'they have more than enough applicants to fill those spots' or 'the risk to the university's academic reputation would be too great versus any possible benefit for non-athletes.' For athletes, though, it's a risk some would find worth it.
• If recruits knew of these fake classes, it's a recruiting advantage. Another influence to the unfair competitive balance.

Kinda sad, because the current NC basketball team seems like it's filled with some pretty cool young men. But, jeez, if the NCAA can do what it did to us over Fab, who we suspended ourselves, and a couple thousand dollars in YMCA money, Carolina should have the program canceled for 10 years. That will never happen to "the Microsoft" of the NCAA.

I disagree with a lot of people, about vacating wins. It's a reasonable penalty (when applied appropriately). Does nothing to change the fact that fans and the schools enjoyed those wins on the game days, or subsequently. It only removes them statistically. Which seems reasonable to me. You play a game with an invalid player, you don't deserve to be able to take credit for that win. But, i personally don't care about 'milestones' like that. JB's 1000 is a bit meaningless. How many Colgates and Fairfields are in there? Other coaching stats are more important. Whatever. re: Carolina, if they are found 'guilty,' absolutely games should be stricken from the record books. Absolutely. But, what does that all mean? If actual championships (conference or NCAA) are deleted, that would be significant. If season win totals are retroactively altered, who really cares except for people who use those numbers to justify 'coaching acumen?' What's Roy's total? I doubt anyone knows offhand. If it were a round number like 1000, it would be more important? I think people are able to see that he has multiple championships, and is taking teams to consecutive finals. Those are the criteria that people judge. Penalizing win stats may or may not be a deterrent — probably not, but even if you think docking a win total is silly (because "we were there/we saw it") it would be sillier to ignore that one team had a documented unfair competitive advantage.

 

[AlaskaSU]

The governing Southern College accrediting agency deemed the courses invalid and put the entire university on probation. Therefore, the athletes that relied on these credits were actually ineligible to play.

 

[SUfaninAZ]

he hates these cans!

 

[tbonezone]

"Kinda sad, because the current NC basketball team seems like it's filled with some pretty cool young men."

true but consider what the team would look like now had the NCAA acted promptly and accordingly and cut scholies and banned them from post season play? quite a different roster one would imagine.
and almost certainly not playing for another title. more likely vacating last years.

 

[Hoo's That]

Is there anyone out there who doesn't believe that there would be a baby-blue clad mob with torches and pitchforks marching on India-noplace if any of this was done word for word, action for action and it was Duke, NC State, or UVa being accused instead of UNC-CHeat? Bueller?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Guys, I'm dumber after reading this thread, and gotta be honest here, that's costly.

 

[garnermick]

From UNC's own Warstein report. The heart of the issue. Grades positively affecting athlete eligibility. Damning stuff, no matter what UNC fans may say nor how the NCAA (which hates having its iconic BB programs sullied) may rule.

"Between 1999 ...and 2009, a total of 186 lecture paper classes were offered with a total of 3,906 undergraduate enrollments in those classes. 1,852 (47.4%) of those enrollments were student-athletes, including 944 football players, 226 men’s basketball players, 114 women’s basketball players, and 568 student-athletes in other sports."

"The average grade issued across the AFAM paper classes over time was 3.62,74 which is significantly higher than the average grade of 3.243 across all undergraduate programs at Chapel Hill during that same period.75 Tellingly, it is also significantly higher than the 3.28 average grade for students in the regular AFAM classes during that time, which highlights the disparate treatment of the regular and irregular students and therefore suggests a manipulative purpose behind the irregular classes.76 74 Student-athletes earned an average grade of 3.55 in the paper classes. Football players earned an average 3.50, men’s basketball players earned an average 3.58, women’s basketball players earned an average 3.51, other sport athletes earned an average 3.71, and non-athletes earned an average 3.69."

"Men’s Basketball: There were 226 enrollments of men’s basketball players in the paper classes between 1999 and 2009. We spoke with 12 men’s basketball players who had knowledge of or took the classes. As with the football players, it was common knowledge among their teammates that these classes required little work for high grades. Unlike the football players, however, the basketball players seemed to find their way to these classes through a variety of routes. While the ASPSA basketball counselor –McSwain and then Walden – would occasionally suggest these classes, they did not routinely steer players into the classes without the players’ knowledge. More often than not, the basketball players found these classes either through r"eferrals from their teammates – “locker room advising” – or via their direct relationship with Crowder, who always maintained close ties among the basketball team. Moreover, unlike the football players who largely conceded that these classes held little educational value, several of the basketball players insisted that they read extensively and worked hard to produce their papers for these classes.87"

 

[Budley]

The N

While it sucks that UNC is not being treated nearly as harshly as SU for doing far worse, I still can't help but feel like "meh, so what?".

The athletes are on campus because of the sport they play. I don't understand the point of academic requirements aside from continuing the "student-athlete" charade.

If a "student-athlete" doesn't want to take advantage of his/her free education, then that should be his/her right. Just like every other student. This isn't high school.

NCAA kept a kid from playing for SU because he took a substandard class in high school, in Africa. But they can't do anything about a whole team of players who took substandard classes at NC for 4 years???

 

[Toga]

The N


NCAA kept a kid from playing for SU because he took a substandard class in high school, in Africa. But they can't do anything about a whole team of players who took substandard classes at NC for 4 years???

Come on Budley - 9th grade classes in Africa = Wheelhouse.

 

[Bayside44]

Guys, I'm dumber after reading this thread, and gotta be honest here, that's costly.

You need to go pro before you regress further...

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You need to go pro before you regress further...

That's true actually.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

"Kinda sad, because the current NC basketball team seems like it's filled with some pretty cool young men."

true but consider what the team would look like now had the NCAA acted promptly and accordingly and cut scholies and banned them from post season play? quite a different roster one would imagine.
and almost certainly not playing for another title. more likely vacating last years.

Oh, absolutely. Agreed. I was just saying that although the school needs to face punishment, it's unfair to vilify the kids on this team.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Just a fun aside here. I had dinner at a friend's house Saturday night, and he is a big fan of UNC. I couldn't figure out the connection. He grew up in Florida near UF (that's his fav), did grad school in colorado and washington, but also roots for UNC when they aren't playing Florida. Turns out he did a research year at UNC and ended up living in the floor below the hoops team in the summer when they were working the hoops camps. He plays hoops as well and would end up playing with the team occasionally when they needed an extra body. Said it was hilarious when he would score on one of the players with the amount of grief the rest of the team gave him (he's a 5'9" white PG).

Also mentioned that all the players drove matching new Isuzu Rodeo's at the time. Some with personalized license plates. Nothing to see here though...

 

[Toga]

Just a fun aside here. I had dinner at a friend's house Saturday night, and is a big fan of UNC. I couldn't figure out the connection. He grew up in Florida near UF (that's his fav), did grad school in colorado and washington, but also roots for UNC when they aren't playing Florida. Turns out he did a research year at UNC and ended up living in the floor below the hoops team in the summer when they were working the hoops camps. He plays hoops as well and would end up playing with the team occasionally when they needed an extra body. Said it was hilarious when he would score on one of the players with the amount of grief the rest of the team gave him (he's a 5'9" white PG).

Also mentioned that all the players drove matching new Isuzu Rodeo's at the time. Some with personalized license plates. Nothing to see here though...

Give us a general time frame s'il vous plait.

 

[orangefog]

Just a fun aside here. I had dinner at a friend's house Saturday night, and is a big fan of UNC. I couldn't figure out the connection. He grew up in Florida near UF (that's his fav), did grad school in colorado and washington, but also roots for UNC when they aren't playing Florida. Turns out he did a research year at UNC and ended up living in the floor below the hoops team in the summer when they were working the hoops camps. He plays hoops as well and would end up playing with the team occasionally when they needed an extra body. Said it was hilarious when he would score on one of the players with the amount of grief the rest of the team gave him (he's a 5'9" white PG).

Also mentioned that all the players drove matching new Isuzu Rodeo's at the time. Some with personalized license plates. Nothing to see here though...

I don't know what you are implying, it is pure coincidence. They could all have the same taste and budget in vehicles.

 

[Moontan]

Also mentioned that all the players drove matching new Isuzu Rodeo's at the time. Some with personalized license plates. Nothing to see here though...

Those were provided to all UNC students at the time.
So you're right, nothing to see here.

 

[Toga]

I don't know what you are implying, it is pure coincidence. They could all have the same taste and budget in vehicles.

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