Oh goodies, now PedSt players are suing

[JeremyCuse]

You retracted your original statement (or at least redefined it) a few weeks ago. Are you now saying you're retracting your retraction?

If so, then you're still wrong.

? I didnt retract anything, what are you talking about? I have said from day one if the bball program got similar sanctions regardless of the reason we would have a lot of people upset about it and up in arms just like PSU. How am I wrong? Its an opinion, you have no way to prove it wouldnt turn out that way.

 

[RF2044]

? I didnt retract anything, what are you talking about? I have said from day one if the bball program got similar sanctions regardless of the reason we would have a lot of people upset about it and up in arms just like PSU. How am I wrong? Its an opinion, you have no way to prove it wouldnt turn out that way.

I'd like to think that our fanbase would have more perspective than the PedStaters. I know personally, I was fearful as heck those first few weeks of the Fine scandal in terms of what it would mean for Boeheim's job / legacy--but my reaction was the opposite of what you generalize above.

If you go back and look at my reaction--and there isn't a bigger JB fan on this board than me, trust me--I expressed repeatedly that if the allegations were true and Boeheim knew, then he HAD to be fired. Period.

Would it have sucked for that to happen, the program to get sanctioned with scholie restrictions / postseason restrictions? Absolutely. But right is right and wrong is wrong.

That is what the PedStaters seem to have lost sight of, and that is why many of us are criticizing them.

 

[orangenirvana]

? I didnt retract anything, what are you talking about? I have said from day one if the bball program got similar sanctions regardless of the reason we would have a lot of people upset about it and up in arms just like PSU. How am I wrong? Its an opinion, you have no way to prove it wouldnt turn out that way.

You keep going back and forth. In one post you'll say "if something similar happened at SU the same sh$t would be going on here." In another you'll say you're only talking about sanctions. Which is it?

There is a monumental difference between a program receiving sanctions for, say, a booster sticking $50 in players' Christmas cards, vs. a program covering for and enabling a raging pedophile for 13 years at the very least. How can you not see this?

 

[All4SU]

I think SU was hit harder than was expected (warranted?) in most peoples' minds. It sure seemed like SU was used as an example to other programs -- many who have had for more significant violations. At the same time, I think the Rob Johnson relationship with Conrad Mcrae ultimately was viewed as the most significant violation. It wasn't the occasional free meal at Grimaldi's.

Ironically, I don't think the "Street Agent" thing has gone away for D1 sports. But it certainly is one of the more seedy sides of it.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'd like to think that our fanbase would have more perspective than the PedStaters. I know personally, I was fearful as heck those first few weeks of the Fine scandal in terms of what it would mean for Boeheim's job / legacy--but my reaction was the opposite of what you generalize above.

If you go back and look at my reaction--and there isn't a bigger JB fan on this board than me, trust me--I expressed repeatedly that if the allegations were true and Boeheim knew, then he HAD to be fired. Period.

Would it have sucked for that to happen, the program to get sanctioned with scholie restrictions / postseason restrictions? Absolutely. But right is right and wrong is wrong.

That is what the PedStaters seem to have lost sight of, and that is why many of us are criticizing them.

Not doubting what you felt personally or that you wouldnt have been OK with sanctions for SU if we had something similiar. My point is that you would likely be in the minority, most casual SU fans and even those who consider themselves diehard fans who aren't on this board aren't likely to take sanctions like that as well as you or other people on this board. As OrangeBuddha noted in an earlier post most Lax fans still refuse to acknowledge the loss of the 1990 NCAA title and are very defensive when other fans try and bring that issue up and say SU cheated. Thats a sport that doesn't have a tenth of the following and diehard fan base the bball program does.

Looking at it through a Penn State fans eyes I can see why they would be upset about crippling sanctions that are nearly the death penalty over actions that really had nothing to do with the Penn State players themselves. What I can't understand is how Joe Pa or any other PSU admin is somehow a victim in this that logic makes no sense to me.

Again not a shot at you but its easy to say we would have no problem with letting JB go or any type of sanctions when its not our school but when your staring down the barrel of SMU like futility for 20+ years opinions change real freekin quick.

 

[JeremyCuse]

You keep going back and forth. In one post you'll say "if something similar happened at SU the same sh$t would be going on here." In another you'll say you're only talking about sanctions. Which is it?

There is a monumental difference between a program receiving sanctions for, say, a booster sticking $50 in players' Christmas cards, vs. a program covering for and enabling a raging pedophile for 13 years at the very least. How can you not see this?

If SU got the same sanctions because the Fine allegations were true I would be saying the same thing. Its hard enough to get fans to accept sanctions when its clear they cheated (ie your scenario about $ in christmas cards), this horrific scandal has a grey area where the players of PSU had no idea what was happening and weren't involved at all. Do you honestly think if the NCAA banned the basketball program from the NCAA tourney for four years that there wouldnt be at least a decent size part of the fanbase up in arms and livid??

 

[RF2044]

Not doubting what you felt personally or that you wouldnt have been OK with sanctions for SU if we had something similiar. My point is that you would likely be in the minority, most casual SU fans and even those who consider themselves diehard fans who aren't on this board aren't likely to take sanctions like that as well as you or other people on this board. As OrangeBuddha noted in an earlier post most Lax fans still refuse to acknowledge the loss of the 1990 NCAA title and are very defensive when other fans try and bring that issue up and say SU cheated. Thats a sport that doesn't have a tenth of the following and diehard fan base the bball program does.

Looking at it through a Penn State fans eyes I can see why they would be upset about crippling sanctions that are nearly the death penalty over actions that really had nothing to do with the Penn State players themselves. What I can't understand is how Joe Pa or any other PSU admin is somehow a victim in this that logic makes no sense to me.

Again not a shot at you but its easy to say we would have no problem with letting JB go or any type of sanctions when its not our school but when your staring down the barrel of SMU like futility for 20+ years opinions change real freekin quick.

And my point is: if hypothetically Bernie were actually guilty of what those four accusers claimed and JB had known and looked the other way while Bernie buggered little boys, then he would have been as big of a monster as JoePa and summarily deserved to lose his job, and the program would HAVE to be sanctioned for allowing it to happen. There simply is no other conclusion that is rational [a key point, and the basis of my PedSt criticism below].

That doesn't mean I'd be happy about the sanctions or the program taking a dip, but I'd certainly recognize--and I'd like to think that other SU fans would, as well, despite what you suggest--that the heinous nature of what went on justified why we were getting penalized. My issue with the PedState fanbase is NOT that they are expressing anger, but rather that their anger is misplaced. The majority--not all, but the majority--refuse to accept that JoePa is guilty of wrongdoing. And the irrational opinion being expressed by a significant portion of that fanbase feel that the program is being victimized more than the children who were sexually molested. And it is this culture that facilitated decades of abuse to be tolerated so that the program wouldn't be tarnished.

That last point is what people are being critical of. The current behavior of the collective fanbase demonstrates the ugly side of their culture, and why the sanctions that were imposed--as draconian as you make them out to be--probably didn't go far enough, or at least aren't sufficient to change the culture in needed ways.


Edit: I want to address your point about the lax title being retroactively invalidated, and SU fans' reaction to it. I think the resistance is based more upon the severity of the penalty as a function of the nature of the infraction [Mrs. Simmons co-signing a car loan for a used car that Paul Gait paid for entirely on his own, with no other improper benefit besides the co-signing]. I don't think any SU lax fan feels like penalties of some kind weren't warranted.

But even so, the nature of that specific infraction pales in comparison / magnitude to what went on at PedSt.

 

[orangenirvana]

If SU got the same sanctions because the Fine allegations were true I would be saying the same thing. Its hard enough to get fans to accept sanctions when its clear they cheated (ie your scenario about $ in christmas cards), this horrific scandal has a grey area where the players of PSU had no idea what was happening and weren't involved at all. Do you honestly think if the NCAA banned the basketball program from the NCAA tourney for four years that there wouldnt be at least a decent size part of the fanbase up in arms and livid??

I'm sure there would be a small contingent of livid fans that a healthy portion of SU fans would look at with embarrassment and/or disgust.

Not remotely close to what we're seeing at Penn State.

 

[JeremyCuse]

And my point is: if hypothetically Bernie were actually guilty of what those four accusers claimed and JB had known and looked the other way while Bernie buggered little boys, then he would have been as big of a monster as JoePa and summarily deserved to lose his job, and the program would HAVE to be sanctioned for allowing it to happen. There simply is no other conclusion that is rational [a key point, and the basis of my PedSt criticism below].

That doesn't mean I'd be happy about the sanctions or the program taking a dip, but I'd certainly recognize--and I'd like to think that other SU fans would, as well, despite what you suggest--that the heinous nature of what went on justified why we were getting penalized. My issue with the PedState fanbase is NOT that they are expressing anger, but rather that their anger is misplaced. The majority--not all, but the majority--refuse to accept that JoePa is guilty of wrongdoing. And the irrational opinion being expressed by a significant portion of that fanbase feel that the program is being victimized more than the children who were sexually molested. And it is this culture that facilitated decades of abuse to be tolerated so that the program wouldn't be tarnished.

That last point is what people are being critical of. The current behavior of the collective fanbase demonstrates the ugly side of their culture, and why the sanctions that were imposed--as draconian as you make them out to be--probably didn't go far enough, or at least aren't sufficient to change the culture in needed ways.

I agree with you about Joe Pa he obviously was guility of wrong doing and he should have been fired just like Fine was and JB would have been had he known anything ( I dont believe he did and Fine's case is nothing like Sandusky's). But at this point who exactly are the sanctions punishing? Everyone involved with that cover up is either dead, in jail, fired, or going through the legal system. The culture at PSU didnt allow this cover up Joe PA, the AD, the school President, local district attorney, police force they allowed it to happen.

The fanbase is what makes the culture of Penn State and unless we can somehow sanction fans were not changing the culture there all this is doing is making them circle the wagons and hunker down even more. To many people on here are cracking champagne bottles every time a PSU recruit transfers or decommits like that is somehow making up for what happened or that PSU is getting what it deserved. The people we shoudl be going after is anyone in the PSU system or local law enforcement / DA's office who didnt prosecute this monster from day freeking one. Forcing Silas Redd to transfer and banning bowl games isnt justice.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'm sure there would be a small contingent of livid fans that a healthy portion of SU fans would look at with embarrassment and/or disgust.

Not remotely close to what we're seeing at Penn State.

Penn State has hundreds of thousands of fans I dont see lawsuits, huge rallies, and press conferences from half the state, I see a vocal minority who feel PSU was punished unfairly and who for whatever reason feel a lawsuit and going to the media will help there cause. People act like every PSU fan is up in arms and loves Joe Pa its simply not the case.

 

[RF2044]

I agree with you about Joe Pa he obviously was guility of wrong doing and he should have been fired just like Fine was and JB would have been had he known anything ( I dont believe he did and Fine's case is nothing like Sandusky's). But at this point who exactly are the sanctions punishing? Everyone involved with that cover up is either dead, in jail, fired, or going through the legal system. The culture at PSU didnt allow this cover up Joe PA, the AD, the school President, local district attorney, police force they allowed it to happen.

The fanbase is what makes the culture of Penn State and unless we can somehow sanction fans were not changing the culture there all this is doing is making them circle the wagons and hunker down even more. To many people on here are cracking champagne bottles every time a PSU recruit transfers or decommits like that is somehow making up for what happened or that PSU is getting what it deserved. The people we shoudl be going after is anyone in the PSU system or local law enforcement / DA's office who didnt prosecute this monster from day freeking one. Forcing Silas Redd to transfer and banning bowl games isnt justice.

And I would contend that the people highlighted above, and the subsequent follow up that occurred, were a manifestation of the culture--not separate from it.

Also, I disagree with your perspective about justice. The NCAA doesn't have to punish those guilty of criminal activity--that's not their role. The justice system will take care of anyone in the PSU system, law enforcement, etc. who facilitated decades worth of sexual abuse. That's coming.

The NCAA's job is to punish the university and the football program. The penalties they imposed were unprecedented because the situation was completely unprecedented. Maybe if JoePa had done the right thing and not tired to protect his friend Sandusky from legal scrutiny--and by extension, the football program from negative scrutiny / publicity--none of this would be blowing up in their face now. Think about that for a second--all he had to do was the right thing. He didn't--which is why Penn State is now being subjected to penalties.

 

[orangenirvana]

Penn State has hundreds of thousands of fans I dont see lawsuits, huge rallies, and press conferences from half the state, I see a vocal minority who feel PSU was punished unfairly and who for whatever reason feel a lawsuit and going to the media will help there cause. People act like every PSU fan is up in arms and loves Joe Pa its simply not the case.

A "vocal minority?" LOL

I have family in State College. Trust me, it goes beyond a "vocal minority."

 

[JeremyCuse]

And I would contend that the people highlighted above, and the subsequent follow up that occurred, were a manifestation of the culture--not separate from it.

Also, I disagree with your perspective about justice. The NCAA doesn't have to punish those guilty of criminal activity--that's not their role. The justice system will take care of anyone in the PSU system, law enforcement, etc. who facilitated decades worth of sexual abuse. That's coming.

The NCAA's job is to punish the university and the football program. The penalties they imposed were unprecedented because the situation was completely unprecedented. Maybe if JoePa had done the right thing and not tired to protect his friend Sandusky from legal scrutiny--and by extension, the football program from negative scrutiny / publicity--none of this would be blowing up in their face now. Think about that for a second--all he had to do was the right thing. He didn't--which is why Penn State is now being subjected to penalties.

I dont disagree but wasnt Sandusky reported to the authorities and DA in the 90's and nothing happened? This was a failure of all invovled not just Joe Pa.

Also the NCAA only has jurisdiction from an athletic standpoint they have no jurisdiction to punish a school itself or its administrators seperate from an Athletic standpoint. Either way the sanctions have been leveled and PSU is going to have to deal with it but the NCAA definitely went into a gray area there that hopefully we never have to see again.

 

[JeremyCuse]

A "vocal minority?" LOL

I have family in State College. Trust me, it goes beyond a "vocal minority."

So the majority of people who are PSU fans living in State College are upset, wow theres a shock. Of course those living in the shadow of the school are going to be livid. How about the rest of PA? How bout PSU fans and ALumni all over the country?

 

[RF2044]

I dont disagree but wasnt Sandusky reported to the authorities and DA in the 90's and nothing happened? This was a failure of all invovled not just Joe Pa.

Correct--it was a systemic, cultural failure from people who were willing to bury this heinous crime in the interests of protecting the program. You're right--it wasn't all on JoePa, but JoePa doing nothing and allowing Sandusky to continue to have access to penn state facilities, where he continued to victimize children for more than a decade, makes him responsible for what happened as much as anyone else--and the only way for the NCAA to penalize JoePa for his involvement [and perhaps even his orchestration] was to invalidate some of his wins, which is exactly what they did.

Also the NCAA only has jurisdiction from an athletic standpoint they have no jurisdiction to punish a school itself or its administrators seperate from an Athletic standpoint. Either way the sanctions have been leveled and PSU is going to have to deal with it but the NCAA definitely went into a gray area there that hopefully we never have to see again.

And the message sent by the NCAA is that such a systemic breakdown of good judgement and decency will not be tolerated. And consequently, the PedSt football program is being subjected to stringent penalties designed both to punish past behavior and prevent anything like this from happening in the future. That the rest of the university / community will also be indirectly impacted by these penalties is peripheral and irrelevant.

Look, individuals do bad things all of the time. And aberrant behavior on the part of one individual shouldn't necessarily reflect on everyone who is part of a group. But this was a collaboration between a LOT of people connected--both directly and indirectly--with the PedSt football program--to cover up one person's aberrant behavior for the good of the program. And given that the aberrant behavior resulted in children being sexually abused, the penalties certainly fit the crime--and frankly may not have gone far enough.

Some might say that the NCAA has a long fuse when it comes to powerhouse programs, but its attached to a pretty big bomb. And PedSt lit the fuse. And the subsequent actions of the BOT / fanbase may only serve to re-light that fuse if they aren't careful.

 

[reedny]

Was being facetious. Its all about the wins.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Watch out ... tongue and cheek posts can get out of hand on this board. lol

("PedSt" -- harsh )

 

[rrlbees]

Not sure how some of you can go back and forth about fan reaction (which at PedSt) is much more than just fans. You can't compare the fanbase reactions because the crimes are not close to the same and nor are/were the penalties.

One is about spaghetti the other child rape.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[All4SU]

I just don't think SU fans as a whole would be as angrily up in arms if SU were to be hit like PSU was hit -- if the situation was reversed. Joe Paterno WAS PSU. And the entire region is militantly behind their football program -- as evidenced by the reaction. SU's football program aside -- I think we can all agree there is a much smaller group here who would care -- I think even the SU basketball program fans wouldn't react the way the PSU fans have. JB is well know, and has become the face of SU sports. BUT he is not bigger than the University. You have to look only as far as his reaction to the announced move to the ACC. JB came out and said he was against it. It didn't matter. It wasn't his choice. And frankly, I don't think JB wants that level of power or influence at SU. He just wants to coach basketball. Does anyone here really think Paterno would have been a non-voter in PSU moving to another conference. Hell, he probably would have almost made the decision on his own. "Yes, Joe. Whatever you say, Joe." would have been the response.

Different places. Different personalities. Different degrees of power and influence.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Not sure how some of you can go back and forth about fan reaction (which at PedSt) is much more than just fans. You can't compare the fanbase reactions because the crimes are not close to the same and nor are/were the penalties.

One is about spaghetti the other child rape.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Its a hypothetical discussion, no one is saying the crimes are similar because obviously there not even close. There is no SU reaction I am simply making the case that I believe the reactions out of PSU aren't shocking or suprising to me and I would expect similar out of some at SU. People are reacting to the penalties and sanctions not child rape.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I just don't think SU fans as a whole would be as angrily up in arms if SU were to be hit like PSU was hit -- if the situation was reversed. Joe Paterno WAS PSU. And the entire region is militantly behind their football program -- as evidenced by the reaction. SU's football program aside -- I think we can all agree there is a much smaller group here who would care -- I think even the SU basketball program fans wouldn't react the way the PSU fans have. JB is well know, and has become the face of SU sports. BUT he is not bigger than the University. You have to look only as far as his reaction to the announced move to the ACC. JB came out and said he was against it. It didn't matter. It wasn't his choice. And frankly, I don't think JB wants that level of power or influence at SU. He just wants to coach basketball. Does anyone here really think Paterno would have been a non-voter in PSU moving to another conference. Hell, he probably would have almost made the decision on his own. "Yes, Joe. Whatever you say, Joe." would have been the response.

Different places. Different personalities. Different degrees of power and influence.

Your underestimating the power of JB at SU and within the administration. Hes no where near what Paterno had in his hay day but trust me JB wields siginficant clout and power on the hill.