On JB's imagined favoritism re: Buddy...

djcon57

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Weren't Hak, Forth, and Duany all starters on that team? That hardly supports the position that we need more bench development.

Hak specifically played much much more at the end of the year. He was not a starter all year. Also, Pace got experience from the bench
 

Orangezoo

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Having a deep team and limited minutes per player will help if the players have to wear masks. Will they be wearing masks? Will there be penalties for putting their mask down... Quite the interesting thing if they will be wearing masks. Will there be a standard filtering ability which is required?

tenor (2).gif
 

djcon57

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Moving the goalposts.

what’s your point with this post? You don’t want to face reality? Hak played more mins off the bench and was moved into a starting role by the NIT. He didn’t start WELL into the season. Duany started played more mins vs Desean as the season went on. Pace played more mins off the bench as the season went on.

Last season, our bench got smaller as the season went on, I guess, because goodine stinks? We’ll see!
 

Alsacs

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what’s your point with this post? You don’t want to face reality? Hak played more mins off the bench and was moved into a starting role by the NIT. He didn’t start WELL into the season. Duany started played more mins vs Desean as the season went on. Pace played more mins off the bench as the season went on.

Last season, our bench got smaller as the season went on, I guess, because goodine stinks? We’ll see!
It makes no sense how our fanbase doesn’t get it.
If you have great players then it makes sense to ride them. Like Duke does.
We don’t have great players. We have good players but not superstars.
Playing the bench doesn’t mean we have get better offense. The bench can steal minutes and wear down the opponent and improve the defense.

Our bench usage has just been poor.
It’s not like we haven’t had a full roster of scholarship players either like we did from 2015-2019.
 

Forloveoforange

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I'll take that as a no.

Really was not clear on this.

Oct 8, 2020
The senior member of the Illinois High School Association's sports medicine advisory committee said Thursday that high school basketball might be possible this year if all players wear masks.

I can push a lawnmower wearing a mask, and do some running as I mow, but I suppose that's not full court basketball.
 

DoctorBombay

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It makes no sense how our fanbase doesn’t get it.
If you have great players then it makes sense to ride them. Like Duke does.
We don’t have great players. We have good players but not superstars.
Playing the bench doesn’t mean we have get better offense. The bench can steal minutes and wear down the opponent and improve the defense.

Our bench usage has just been poor.
It’s not like we haven’t had a full roster of scholarship players either like we did from 2015-2019.
And here's the thing; Why has this become an all or nothing proposition where if you criticize bench usage, somehow you're against everything else James Arthur Boeheim?
When we had 4-5 stars at every position, cool- you ride them hard because the drop-off at the 6th or 7th man is huge. But we don't have a Burger Boy level starting 5, so playing them like they're so far and above what's on the bench is just ridiculous, IMO.
Were Buddy and JGIII so much better than anyone else that you HAD to have them in the game 95% of the time? We saw games where the team played well in stretches when HW and BG came in for them, yet just like clockwork, they'd be back in to finish the entire game, no matter how badly they were playing.
When questioned by anyone who noticed the obvious, ie; These guys are playing too many minutes- JB has gone on record that; "These are young guys, with timeouts and breaks, they don't need to come out".
Its his PHILOSOPHY, just like a Bob Knight had a PHILOSOPHY that being a hard-ass was the best way to reach his team.
 

Capt. Tuttle

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This in a nutshell. Did Buddy deserve to play because of his potential and what he brings to the team, especially offensively? Absolutely. Did he deserve to play 37 mins a game at the expense of any and everyone else, and despite his performance on the court? No- absolutely not. Its ridiculous that a player not named Carmelo Anthony gets that many mins at SU. And to me this is not a Buddy issue, but a bench development philosophy from HCJB, which I've always disagreed with. JMHO
The guys you are bitching about not playing proved they could not play at that level. You would put low D-1 guys into games, with an already thin talent team on the floor, just so Buddy would play less.
 

Capt. Tuttle

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what’s your point with this post? You don’t want to face reality? Hak played more mins off the bench and was moved into a starting role by the NIT. He didn’t start WELL into the season. Duany started played more mins vs Desean as the season went on. Pace played more mins off the bench as the season went on.

Last season, our bench got smaller as the season went on, I guess, because goodine stinks? We’ll see!
Goodine stunk. Will he stink elsewhere, on a smaller stage, a year later. Who knows?
 

longtimefan

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what’s your point with this post? You don’t want to face reality? Hak played more mins off the bench and was moved into a starting role by the NIT. He didn’t start WELL into the season. Duany started played more mins vs Desean as the season went on. Pace played more mins off the bench as the season went on.

Last season, our bench got smaller as the season went on, I guess, because goodine stinks? We’ll see!
The logic of your original post was that Warrick, Forth, and Duany developed because the coach utilized his bench. Except Forth and Duany started all season, and Warrick became a starter toward the end of the year. Then you tossed in Pace. Changing your argument in the middle of a discussion is moving the goalposts.
 

djcon57

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The logic of your original post was that Warrick, Forth, and Duany developed because the coach utilized his bench. Except Forth and Duany started all season, and Warrick became a starter toward the end of the year. Then you tossed in Pace. Changing your argument in the middle of a discussion is moving the goalposts.

no no. You changed the argument. Read my original response to Florida fan. Please quote where I used the word bench, then get back to me.

...actually don’t, this is boring
 

kcsu

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Sometimes fans get some notions in their heads that just don't make any sense under examination. One of these is the sarcasm frequently expressed by those who are certain that Coach Boeheim does irrationally give his son, Buddy, an unjustified amount of minutes in games cuz he loves him or something. It's an assumption that I think fails the Logic Test.

One thing every long-standing SU Basketball fan must know about Jim Boeheim is that he wants to win games more than life itself. He very rarely likes to take chances. Doesn't like to defy the odds. When it comes to which of his players he puts on the court, when the game is at all in doubt he's not likely to take a chance on his bench, unless 1 or more of his starters ain't getting it done. Yes, there are other variables that come into play: the experience of his 7th-9th players, how they've been playing in practice, how many mistakes they made the last time they were in, etc.

It seems many fans view the coach/son story as an excuse to harangue JB for not playing a deeper bench. I don't happen to be one of them. I believe Boeheim, Coach K, & a dozen other highly respected head coaches are right to play no more than 7-8 players in their regular rotation. It's not because they're oblivious to how helpful the extra minutes of PT would be to the 8th, 9th, and 10th players. It's because they'e acutely aware of how helpful those minutes are to the starting 5, and then the starting 7. Smart coaches don't want to deprive their best players of the crucial PT they need in order to develop as a team, just to give the guys further down the bench a few more token minutes.

Any time Jim has a young team, like he did last year, he's gonna be far more concerned about his starters getting the time they need playing together in games in a very short season if they are going to be able to be competitive with the best teams at the end of the year. He's got to have his best five players optimally developed in game situations to have any chance in the post-season. Any time you have a young team, there will always be precious few minutes left over for those on the bench, unless 1) the 1st five are destroying all their opponents in spite of their inexperience, or 2) injuries or 'performance issues' force his hand.

Last year, Buddy & Joe played nearly all the available minutes because Jim desperately needed his starting, inexperienced guards to have as much playing time with the rest of the team as possible in game situations if they were gonna have a chance to play at a level where, say, they'd be able to blow out North Carolina in the ACC Tournament. Aside from that strategic consideration, there was the fact that Buddy was in the 2nd half of the season providing a serious threat to opposing defenses that they had to respect. These days, you've gotta have at least three 3pt threats in your offense to be able to compete with the best teams in the league. There was almost never a time when Jim didn't want to have that threat on the court if at all possible.

Having said all that, I expect both JG & BB to play fewer minutes this year, cuz 1) they have year of experience under their belts, and 2) Kadary Richmond. I haven't heard whether KR can hit the open 3, but I'm imagining he must be doing this also, or else he wouldn't be referred to as one of the best PG's in the country. If true, then there would be little drop off of that kind of threat if Buddy's on the bench.

While there were abundant reasons for JB to play his son a ton of minutes last year, still we have fans who never miss an opportunity to insinuate that the head coach has such a strong emotional attachment to his son that he would ignore the best interests of the team in order to 'cheat', i.e., give Buddy more time on the court to boost his stats when that PT could have more profitably have been given to say BG, instead. In other words, they're insinuating that JB has a character flaw that, in their opinion, is probably hurting his team's overall development. Am I the only one who finds these insinuations intentionally insulting to JB & out of bounds?
Of course JB plays favorites with Buddy. 100% he does. Its his son. Buddy is a very good player but not good enough to play as many minutes as he does. JB also protects his position by moving other potential 2s. JB may " want to win more than living" but he also loves his son more than winning. Fortunately Buddy is a helleva player, a hard worker and by all accounts a great young man. I dont blame JB for playing Buddy or others like Gmac who was an obvious favorite of his.
Coaches are humans and humans play favorites.
 

Dinkyspond

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Al McGuire always told this story when he coached his son Allie at Marquette: A player came to Al and said "How come I'm not playing as much as Allie? I'm just as good." Al told him: "That's right. your just as good. But that's my son, I love him. you have to be better than him to play more." That being said, we had no one better to replace Buddy last year. Goodine was given chances early and shot the ball horrendously.
 

Alsacs

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Al McGuire always told this story when he coached his son Allie at Marquette: A player came to Al and said "How come I'm not playing as much as Allie? I'm just as good." Al told him: "That's right. your just as good. But that's my son, I love him. you have to be better than him to play more." That being said, we had no one better to replace Buddy last year. Goodine was given chances early and shot the ball horrendously.
If this is the mindset what about defense?
Buddy’s the worst defender at SG.
Being able to shoot is the end all be all.
Our zone also happened to suck last year while the offense got better.

Goodijne got 200 minutes the entire season of the equivalent of 5.25 entire games last year from Buddy.
Buddy was given chances early his freshman year when Frank Howard was hurt and he sucked in those games.
JB didn’t give up buddy his freshman year.
 

OrangeDW

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If this is the mindset what about defense?
Buddy’s the worst defender at SG.
Being able to shoot is the end all be all.
Our zone also happened to suck last year while the offense got better.

Goodijne got 200 minutes the entire season of the equivalent of 5.25 entire games last year from Buddy.
Buddy was given chances early his freshman year when Frank Howard was hurt and he sucked in those games.
JB didn’t give up buddy his freshman year.

Buddy’s defense wasnt “12% from 3, bad” though.
 

Dinkyspond

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That is true, Goodine is a much better defender than Buddy but JB obviously went for more offense
 

Alsacs

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Buddy’s defense wasnt “12% from 3, bad” though.
On the other hand, Buddy’s offense wasn’t 36 MPG good though.
He plays so much his per 40 stats are basically his current averages per game with just very minor more stats.


Isn’t possible for the defense to be better with one of Girard/Buddy playing with a better defensive guard and each of their bench minutes going to the 3rd guard.

You can’t tell me our 3rd best guard should only average 8.7 MPG when our best 2 guards are as bad defensively as Girard/Buddy were last year and the defense was better when Washington and goodine got minutes.
 

OrangeDW

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On the other hand, Buddy’s offense wasn’t 36 MPG good though.
He plays so much his per 40 stats are basically his current averages per game with just very minor more stats.


Isn’t possible for the defense to be better with one of Girard/Buddy playing with a better defensive guard and each of their bench minutes going to the 3rd guard.

You can’t tell me our 3rd best guard should only average 8.7 MPG when our best 2 guards are as bad defensively as Girard/Buddy were last year and the defense was better when Washington and goodine got minutes.

Buddy is a 30 mpg player, I agree.

Hopefully Kadary is good enough to make that a reality this year.
 

Alsacs

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Buddy is a 30 mpg player, I agree.

Hopefully Kadary is good enough to make that a reality this year.
What is the standard for Kadary though?
Being good offensively or being good defensively?
It seems to switch and that is part of the frustration.
 

OrangeDW

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What is the standard for Kadary though?
Being good offensively or being good defensively?
It seems to switch and that is part of the frustration.

Hopefully he’s reasonably good at both?

We all were sick of playing 4 on 5 on offense and having starting guards who threw Thor hammers at the rim from 3, but now we’re mad that the guard who shot 12% from 3 didn’t play more.
 

Alsacs

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Hopefully he’s reasonably good at both?

We all were sick of playing 4 on 5 on offense and having starting guards who threw Thor hammers at the rim from 3, but now we’re mad that the guard who shot 12% from 3 didn’t play more.
Our guards were always decent offensive threats it was the bigs who weren’t score enough.

Roberson/Chukwu/Moyer types not being offensive threats are why we have played 4 on 5.

The pro-offense mindset is fun but it’s clearly a shift from JB.
The defense is just terrible when the overwhelmingly majority minutes are played by Girard and Buddy.
We have no length at the top and it makes the zone easier to pass around.
 

CuseFaninVT

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What is the standard for Kadary though?
Being good offensively or being good defensively?
It seems to switch and that is part of the frustration.
Remember all the bigs we had who couldn't see the floor because their defense wasn't good enough? I remember Rak in that category through his first couple years. Despite ALWAYS being better offensively than his competition. I agree that's one of my biggest frustrations with JB's argument here.
 

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