Once Again It's Talent

[NineOneSeven]

It was nice winning last night by 20, but let's be real, DePaul is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than any team we will come across in March.

 

[orangefog]

I mean Kansas who is pegged at a one seed lost to TCU (which was the equivalent of losing to a 16 seed). Michigan who whas been in the top 5 most of the year lost to an 0-14 Penn State team. Every team has some type of issues.

Absolutely, Kansas and Michigan are two of those teams that have baffled me, along with Indiana, Louisville and a few others. In contrast to the OP, this Syracuse team has plenty of talent to go far this year, they just have to find their roles and start hitting some shots. Survive and advance is where it's at.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

While I watched I realized what we have right now on the Hill.

We don't have a Pearl. We don't have a Rony Seikaly. We don't have a Rafael Addison.

We just aren't good enough. We have no presence in the middle, we can't shoot and we don't create good shots in the first place.

Watching other talented teams gives perspective.

But there are similarities: Pearl = MCW, Rony = DC2, Raf = CJ.

As for perspective, I don't think watching highlight games from years gone by gives a good perspective. It taints your perspective. And a person who choses to watch an old time game is probably more susceptible to reminisce. People will probably do it with this era's team 20 years from now. If the internet had been around then, a person like yourself would have said that 90 team was deficient, that Pearl is no Bing, that Rony is no Bill Smith.

I'm with Millhouse and Marsh, if you want to evaluate the chances of how the season will end up, the better method would be to compare the team to other current teams.

 

[RF2044]

It was nice winning last night by 20, but let's be real, DePaul is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than any team we will come across in March.

Very true. Last night's game was a confidence builder--nothing more.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I guess you missed the point.

I watched the game to see the Pearl play again - in what was a big game in 1985.

That was fun.

While I watched I realized what we have right now on the Hill.

We don't have a Pearl. We don't have a Rony Seikaly. We don't have a Rafael Addison.

We just aren't good enough. We have no presence in the middle, we can't shoot and we don't create good shots in the first place.

Watching other talented teams gives perspective.

If you're watching other talented teams from different eras you're kind of neglecting an enormous variable.

Nobody has a Pearl or Seikaly anymore. Hell, MCW is the closest thing to Pearl anybody in college basketball has this year.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Words mean things, OPA.

This one liner cracked me up.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I guess you missed the point.

I watched the game to see the Pearl play again - in what was a big game in 1985.

That was fun.

While I watched I realized what we have right now on the Hill.

We don't have a Pearl. We don't have a Rony Seikaly. We don't have a Rafael Addison.

We just aren't good enough. We have no presence in the middle, we can't shoot and we don't create good shots in the first place.

Watching other talented teams gives perspective.

Well, James Southerland is pretty close to Raf Addison in terms of skills. But otherwise I agree with what you're saying.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Its easy to get swept up in pessimism given how poorly we've played down the stretch, but I don't agree with your conclusion. This team has plenty of talent, but also has flaws that are difficult to overcome. Namely, the backcourt shoots poorly from three, we don't rebound effectively as a team, and we lack low post scoring.

Plenty of talent, but the whole isn't greater than the sum of the individual parts due to the above. Even so, I agree with Upsate [above] when he suggests that despite those problems, we're still knocking on the door.

It's become a meme that we don't rebound well because we often have problems in that area historically speaking - and even last year. But this year we are something like 14th in the country (out of 350+ schools, so that's top 5%). You can probably count on 1 hand the number of times we've been out-rebounded this year. But it has been a big factor in the games we've lost.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Its easy to get swept up in pessimism given how poorly we've played down the stretch, but I don't agree with your conclusion. This team has plenty of talent, but also has flaws that are difficult to overcome. Namely, the backcourt shoots poorly from three, we don't rebound effectively as a team, and we lack low post scoring.

Plenty of talent, but the whole isn't greater than the sum of the individual parts due to the above. Even so, I agree with Upsate [above] when he suggests that despite those problems, we're still knocking on the door.

I hear you but lets play Devil's Advocate. If the whole season you can't shoot what does that say? I love CJ and he is so steady but he is not a NBA player, imo. MCW is a talent in his distribution ability and size, sure. Just because you are 6'9 220 and move around well like Rak does doesn't mean it's talent. The guy averaged 8pts a game in H.S. as per Boeheim's presser. Grant has some talent and Coleman down the road. Who knows about Cooney, really. There is some talent but it has been overrated perhaps by many people everywhere (fans, recruitniks, etc.). Who knows what's going on in practice. That's the real variable. Is it in between the ears with them which factors into talent, or coaching, or what not?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Really.

Who?

Where are we at center?

Where are we at power forward?

Where are we at shooting guard?

Do you remember Bill Case or Ernie Austin or Ken Harper?

At center, we have 3 guys who are combining to give us something like 14 points and 12 rebounds a game. If it was 1 guy doing that, he'd be an all-american.

It seems like forever since we've had a good shooting guard - Dion, last year of course, and GMac (although people insist on calling him a PG) comes to mind. And then before that?

In our system, year after year, we have 2 scoring forwards and a scoring PG. It seems like our centers and our 2G's never score, and never stack up to the other players.

 

[Knicks411]

It's become a meme that we don't rebound well because we often have problems in that area historically speaking - and even last year. But this year we are something like 14th in the country (out of 350+ schools, so that's top 5%). You can probably count on 1 hand the number of times we've been out-rebounded this year. But it has been a big factor in the games we've lost.

Well, rebounding is 2 different things. We are really good at offensive rebounding, and really bad at defensive rebounding.
But to the main point; how are we not a contender? Who are the contenders? It's not like we are getting blown out by bad teams, or even blown out by good teams. Nearly all of the games we have lost this year have been close.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Well, rebounding is 2 different things. We are really good at offensive rebounding, and really bad at defensive rebounding.
But to the main point; how are we not a contender? Who are the contenders? It's not like we are getting blown out by bad teams, or even blown out by good teams. Nearly all of the games we have lost this year have been close.

Eh, I think the defensive rebounding can be a problem at times, but most teams are afraid of us running on them if they crash the offensive boards too much. Some teams, like Marquette, take their chances with us, but many others are scared to.

The problem I see with the last few weeks is that their bubble was popped and now they question themselves and their ability to score on the offensive end. During this losing streak, sure, we kept games close, but there's a big difference between playing from behind (which we've been doing a lot of), versus letting one get away at the end.

 

[PhatOrange]

We are not playing well right now.

And it's probably a talent issue.

That thought came to mind this morning while I watched ESPN Classic - SU v. Georgetown - 1985 - in the Dome.

The Orange played with Washington, Alexis, Addison, Hawkins, Seikaly, Monroe, Michael Brown, and others.

That was a very talented team - it could score - outside and inside - and it could rebound.

It opened my eyes.

This year's team is just not good enough to truly compete.

Exactly right. This team is one of the least talented teams I've seen on the hill in a while. No joke.

 

[Bayside44]

This team has plenty of talent comparable to our peers, as thoe teams OPA referenced 20 years ago had to theirs. The game has changed - for the worse for a variety of reasons. The right combo of guys on the floor for us can beat anyone in 2013's game. The besst collection of our guys on the floor against 1992 Duke would get smoked to no end.

 

[Knicks411]

Eh, I think the defensive rebounding can be a problem at times, but most teams are afraid of us running on them if they crash the offensive boards too much. Some teams, like Marquette, take their chances with us, but many others are scared to.

But the numbers say otherwise. We give up a huge percentage of offensive rebounds to teams. We have for years and it hasn't kept us from having top 20 defenses, so it's more something I accept at this point, but it's definitely real.

 

[SUFan44]

Really.

Who?

Where are we at center?

Where are we at power forward?

Where are we at shooting guard?

Do you remember Bill Case or Ernie Austin or Ken Harper?

No, quite frankly I do not remember those guys. But I have seen plenty (and I do mean plenty) of basketball to know that we have talent on this team.

MCW may be flawed, but he is a talented distributor and is a disruptive part of our defense.

Triche is very, very flawed, but has the ability to play at a very high level if he is on (a big, big if).

CJ Fair is as consistent a player as we have had in the program (he's the PF, by the way). He is a capable rebounder and will be First or Second Team All-BE this season (I might add that MCW may very well be a First or Second Team choice as well).

Christmas/Keita/Coleman are works in progress, but there's no denying are high Division I talents. Big men take time (sometimes the light never clicks on for them, other times like Melo last year it does).

Southerland, also when on, can be a deadly shooter that defenses cannot stop. Grant is going to be a star sooner rather than later. Cooney is not ready yet, but will be a key contributor as a junior and senior.

I think people forget just how much experience this team lost from last year. Scoop and Kris were multi-year starters, Dion was a sixth man the prior year, Melo started for the majority of the season as a freshman before coming on last year. Needed guys to step up and into their new expanded roles and thus far they have come up short.

But that does NOT mean they are not talented.

 

[BayonneOrange]

Well, James Southerland is pretty close to Raf Addison in terms of skills. But otherwise I agree with what you're saying.

You are really not serious on that one...are you??
Raf could shoot the ball far better than James, plus he could put the ball on the floor.
Raf played a very strong defensive game, just ask Chris Mullin. James hasn't played a second of defense since he stepped on campus.
Addison played a solid 6 years in the NBA plus 4 years in Europe, James won't play 6 games in the NBA.

Don't get me wrong, not trying to put down James, respect what he does on the court, but he has nowhere near the game as Raf did.

 

[Deano]

you probably shouldn't watch games from 28 years ago to evaluate our chances

That Marrone nose kills me, lol.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

At center, we have 3 guys who are combining to give us something like 14 points and 12 rebounds a game. If it was 1 guy doing that, he'd be an all-american.

It seems like forever since we've had a good shooting guard - Dion, last year of course, and GMac (although people insist on calling him a PG) comes to mind. And then before that?

In our system, year after year, we have 2 scoring forwards and a scoring PG. It seems like our centers and our 2G's never score, and never stack up to the other players.

I don't agree with the 2g thing. BT is our second leading scorer, Dion was the 4th pick, then Andy made it to the pro's, before him Devendorf was a McD AA and a huge scorer, then GMac.

 

[dasher]

We are not playing well right now.

And it's probably a talent issue.

That thought came to mind this morning while I watched ESPN Classic - SU v. Georgetown - 1985 - in the Dome.

The Orange played with Washington, Alexis, Addison, Hawkins, Seikaly, Monroe, Michael Brown, and others.

That was a very talented team - it could score - outside and inside - and it could rebound.

It opened my eyes.

This year's team is just not good enough to truly compete.

Others have said it but just to add, you can't compare teams from 25 and 30 years ago to teams today. Today's teams just aren't that good. Who is good enough. The Ville? We beat them at their place and were leading with a minute and a half to play the second time. On any given night we can beat anyone in the country. Could lose to any as well. Will we win a title. Probably not. Just like the Nova team in '85 couldn't win it.

 

[orangefan13]

I would say its more the fact that everyone outside CJ and southerland is a step down offensively from what we needed them to be this year, then it is a lack of talent. This team is no worse then 10-11 or 08-o9 though which means they are solid for a off year, and could make a really deep March run and go all the way.

In the halfcourt.
1.CJ is a solid second scoring option pushing first. First is more then what we asked of him preseason. Hes coming off 8.5 ppg.
2.Southerland is a solid roll the dice. When hes on from outside, hes a first-second scoring option when hes off hes 3rd-4th. We need him to be second every game if he can be, and to not be a 4th option when hes off.
3.Triche is a solid third some games 4th scoring option. 1 out of 5 games he is a first-second option. We wanted him to be a consistant second, but I could see it might not be his game as well.
4.Mike is a solid 4th scoring option. Hes a pg though and thats still ok. We thought he would be a first-third scoring option. He uses his height to get all his points.
5.Cooney Dajuan and now Grant are a 0 scoring option. We wanted them to atleast be a solid third-forth option.
Rak and Baye are ok defensively. But, they are as raw as cooney dajuan and grant offensively. I guess thats what we maybe expected of Baye, but Rak not so much.

The overall outcome leads to Momentum problems. This team hasn't been taken lightly by anyone. They are good enough ot go on runs but they haven't been intimidating to a good team this year. We have had one tough win this year Lville and we weren't intimidating we just pulled off the w. This team has lots to prove.


I could think of atleast 9 other chemistry issues with this team. Had them in a list but the post was to long. It doesn't help going on a 8 to 0 run and then blowing it in three possessions.

 

[ORRange]

Well, James Southerland is pretty close to Raf Addison in terms of skills. But otherwise I agree with what you're saying.

Can't let that one go without a word. Raf averaged 15pts/gm on 53.4 fg% to go with 5.2 rbs/game with 1876 pts for his career. James is probably going to average half Addison's totals. We could only wish James could shoot like Raf for the remainder of our games. Addison was a complete basketball player and those two players don't compare at all. JMO and I'm not dogging James but just feel Raf was way better.

 

[PhatOrange]

Can't let that one go without a word. Raf averaged 15pts/gm on 53.4 fg% to with 5.2 rbs/game with 1876 pts for his career. James is probably going to average half Addison's totals. We could only wish James could shoot like Raf for the remainder of our games. Addison was a complete basketball player and those two players don't compare at all. JMO and I'm not dogging James but just feel Raf was way better.

It's ok to dog james though, he's been a medicore shooting role player his whole career.

 

[Chip]

you probably shouldn't watch games from 28 years ago to evaluate our chances

Yeah, it's a completely different game personnel wise. Oh and that whole 3 point shot rule.

Remember when Pearl left after his junior year and it seemed like a groundbreaking concept?

If you stay until your junior year now, people think something is wrong with you.

 

[billsin01]

And it's probably a talent issue.

This year's team is just not good enough to truly compete.

Disagree significantly with the first statement, couldn't agree more with the second. I think in terms of talent we've had a ton of teams with far less athletic talent -- I posted this earlier in the year but for all the complaining about Baye, can you imagine what would be going on here if we had ovcina or billy celuk running around out there? And we won a title with forth and mcneil for God's sake. MCW is a really gifted PG, Fair may not be overly talented athletically but he's got comparable gifts to many of our SFs. Christmas is the type of athlete you'd put together in a lab to play the 4 here.

Problem is, as you point out, these guys simply aren't that good at basketball. Look the part, have the measurables and some degree of skill, but ultimately are wanting in terms of basketball skill/production. Triche gets a lot of criticism, but at least I look at him as a guy who's simply not terribly gifted athletically. I mean, great athlete compared to you and me, but not too quick off the floor, slow release, mediocre first step/acceleration. MCW is an elite talent but is a woefully bad finisher in every respect. Xmas, I won't even comment generally but he has been dreadful given his ability.

There are plenty of issues to go around, but the bottom line is that this team isn't very good at basketball.