Once Again It's Talent

[IthacaMatt]

You're comparing JS numbers this year compared to Addison's CAREER stats. Whose on crack? Southerland's career numbers are half of Addison's. How many career points will James have? How many years did James lead the team in scoring? How many times was he named All BE? Total minutes played says it all. James couldn't even get on the court for 20 minutes a game his first 3 years, are you serious?

You're mistaken. Go back and look at SWC's post.

 

[SWC75]

Right.

They're just not good enough BB players.

They may be fast and strong etc but they don't play BB well enough to win a NC and that's what we now expect nearly every year.

I actually agree with OrangePA on this one. Star ratings and McDonald's All-Americans are evaluations of how a player played in high schools. Some don't do as well in college. Some stop developing. Some are developing but on a slower schedule than we'd like. The fact is, this team's getting little out of the center position, even if Christmas or Coleman might blossom later in their careers. They aren't getting much from the shooting guards. Maybe Cooney will emerge as a dead-eye later but it's not likely to be this year. Grant will be an maybe already is a better player than Southerland but JB wants James in there because of all the zones we are seeing. Fair is our only consistent player and MCW isn't the Pearl or Sherman Douglas who can win games by himself. It is a good defensive team but mediocre at rebounding. I just don't see those things changing this year. We've had a run of very good teams but this isn't one of them.

 

[billsin01]

Right.

They're just not good enough BB players.

They may be fast and strong etc but they don't play BB well enough to win a NC and that's what we now expect nearly every year.

Yeah, and people shouldn't be admonished for having really high (unrealistic?) expectations simply b/c we're flirting with 30 wins every year. You get to that level and the expectations change. I don't really think JB would even disagree with that.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I actually agree with OrangePA on this one. Star ratings and McDonald's All-Americans are evaluations of how a player played in high schools. Some don't do as well in college. Some stop developing. Some are developing but on a slower schedule than we'd like. The fact is, this team's getting little out of the center position, even if Christmas or Coleman might blossom later in their careers. They aren't getting much from the shooting guards. Maybe Cooney will emerge as a dead-eye later but it's not likely to be this year. Grant will be an maybe already is a better player than Southerland but JB wants James in there because of all the zones we are seeing. Fair is our only consistent player and MCW isn't the Pearl or Sherman Douglas who can win games by himself. It is a good defensive team but mediocre at rebounding. I just don't see those things changing this year. We've had a run of very good teams but this isn't one of them.

Say it's not so, don't agree with him. First thing to totally dismiss is the ridiculous assertion that we now expect to win a NC nearly every year. We aren't that idiotic.

True, this year we may not win the NC, bold prediction there. But we still have a punchers chance. We're a lot closer now that his beloved '85 squad. Remember Seikaly as a frosh? Yeah, that's '85. He would be the 4th center this year, and that's no joke. He's the first guy ever to pine for the days of Hawkins - ouch. Pearl was good as a soph, but so is MCW. I'd take BT over a frosh Michael Brown or soph Monroe. People got sidetracked by IMatt's comment but the relevant comparison is really Raf to CJ, and they are comparable. Dirty to Alexis is more like it. And what about backups? A frosh Brower or Hawkins backing up a fresh off the boat Seikaly -who fouled out 11 times. This was a 22-9 team for a reason.

Don't let the impressionable poster from PA rewatch a highlight game of a mediocre year and come bellyaching here about our lack of talent this year. And if he is giving us frosh Seikaly as an example he is certainly melding their career stats and erroneously applying it to a specific year, common old-timer reminiscing strategy. I understand it is easier to compare offensive stats and in this instance we probably shouldn't try to compare defenses, because there is none. '85 had the slow midgets up top funnelinng the drives into the hack brothers -Seikaly and Hawkins in the middle.

This years record will be better, we are ranked higher, this years BET should be better, this years NCAAT should be at least as good, and this years talent level is better. The only thing PA is right about is that we may not win the NC this year.

 

[OrangePA]

Yeah, and people shouldn't be admonished for having really high (unrealistic?) expectations simply b/c we're flirting with 30 wins every year. You get to that level and the expectations change. I don't really think JB would even disagree with that.

I didn't suggest that the expectations are incorrect.

It's a fact - the SU BB program has reached a level in the sport where that is the expectation - a justifiable one.

This year the team will not and should not - based on its play - match the expectations.

 

[OrangePA]

Say it's not so, don't agree with him. First thing to totally dismiss is the ridiculous assertion that we now expect to win a NC nearly every year. We aren't that idiotic.

True, this year we may not win the NC, bold prediction there. But we still have a punchers chance. We're a lot closer now that his beloved '85 squad. Remember Seikaly as a frosh? Yeah, that's '85. He would be the 4th center this year, and that's no joke. He's the first guy ever to pine for the days of Hawkins - ouch. Pearl was good as a soph, but so is MCW. I'd take BT over a frosh Michael Brown or soph Monroe. People got sidetracked by IMatt's comment but the relevant comparison is really Raf to CJ, and they are comparable. Dirty to Alexis is more like it. And what about backups? A frosh Brower or Hawkins backing up a fresh off the boat Seikaly -who fouled out 11 times. This was a 22-9 team for a reason.

Don't let the impressionable poster from PA rewatch a highlight game of a mediocre year and come bellyaching here about our lack of talent this year. And if he is giving us frosh Seikaly as an example he is certainly melding their career stats and erroneously applying it to a specific year, common old-timer reminiscing strategy. I understand it is easier to compare offensive stats and in this instance we probably shouldn't try to compare defenses, because there is none. '85 had the slow midgets up top funnelinng the drives into the hack brothers -Seikaly and Hawkins in the middle.

This years record will be better, we are ranked higher, this years BET should be better, this years NCAAT should be at least as good, and this years talent level is better. The only thing PA is right about is that we may not win the NC this year.

No.

You missed the point.

Syracuse Basketball is elite - it is one of the top programs in the country.

The expectation in the world of college BB - not just SU Fans - is that the team will compete every year for the NC.

Not that the Orange will win every year or in a given year - that the Orange will have the talent to compete every year.

This year's team does not have the talent to compete for the NC. That you apparently think we have the talent to win it this year is really just a testimonial to your enthusiasm.

Your assessment is dead wrong, of course, but it's definitely enthusiastic.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How do you compare players/teams of a different era in raw statistics? You'd have to standardize scoring in some fashion (adjust to possession, proportion of team's scoring, etc.) and still, it's a completely different game so you can't really interpret the differences. Any D1 team from 2013 would destroy the best teams from the 1980s if you could go back in time. Players today are so much more physical that it wouldn't matter that Player X from 1985 shot 7% better - he couldn't get an open shot!

PS: The team doesn't look like it's having fun out there. Unless they play with more passion, they're not going anywhere.

Depends on if the refs were from back then or from today. If the refs were from today, today's players would have the advantage on defense. If the refs were from back then, today's players would all foul out.

 

[IthacaMatt]

No.

You missed the point.

Syracuse Basketball is elite - it is one of the top programs in the country.

The expectation in the world of college BB - not just SU Fans - is that the team will compete every year for the NC.

Not that the Orange will win every year or in a given year - that the Orange will have the talent to compete every year.

This year's team does not have the talent to compete for the NC. That you apparently think we have the talent to win it this year is really just a testimonial to your enthusiasm.

Your assessment is dead wrong, of course, but it's definitely enthusiastic.

The thing is, if we played the way we did at the beginning of the season, we could be considered a contender. Certain parts of our execution have noticeably regressed since November or December.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

No.

You missed the point.

Syracuse Basketball is elite - it is one of the top programs in the country.

The expectation in the world of college BB - not just SU Fans - is that the team will compete every year for the NC.

Not that the Orange will win every year or in a given year - that the Orange will have the talent to compete every year.

This year's team does not have the talent to compete for the NC. That you apparently think we have the talent to win it this year is really just a testimonial to your enthusiasm.

Your assessment is dead wrong, of course, but it's definitely enthusiastic.

So, in your opinion does this team have less of a chance than in '85? That's what brought on this revelation isn't it? The big bad 22-9, '85 team featuring fresh of the boat Seikaly, Andre "the hack" Hawkins, and the defenseless midgets up top. You saw the highlight game (and I bet you got thirsty for some beer during that telecast too).

This years team is better in almost any meaningful criteria. Yet, it was the '85 squad that led you to deem this season is lost.

It is not too late for this season. We're safely in the tourney. We need a couple of what have now been identified as our key people to step up - BT and/or JS to start hitting, Rak to play well, and MCW with good decisions. It's a wide open field this year and I feel if we could make a run with just some minor improvements. I'd take this years chances over '85's all day long.

 

[TinyManInside]

Depends on if the refs were from back then or from today. If the refs were from today, today's players would have the advantage on defense. If the refs were from back then, today's players would all foul out.

The game is so different than it was 30 years ago. There is an incredible emphasis on strength now compared to back then. I think if you magically dropped a Final 4 team from 1985 into an arena to play against any upper division major conference team from 2013, they'd get blasted. That's because in this day and age the game is called so loosely, so much contact goes uncalled, the players are so big and strong, and interpretation of the rules has changed, that the players from 1985 would get physically destroyed. Most of those players would be freaking weaklings in comparison to the players of today, and they simply wouldn't be able to withstand the constant hand checking, grabbing, and body checking that goes on now.

And I also think that today's college players are plenty skilled (well, except for true post players. Pervis Ellison for example had a bizillion moves around the basket as a frosh), it's just that the game has turned into a giant rockfight because of the way they are reff'd these days. Offensive players just don't have (or more accurately are not allowed) any space to operate on offense anymore. Refs let the body checking on cuts go, and they allow defenders to slide under airboard players (charge!). It's hard to showcase basketball skills in a wrestling match.

Mason

 

[TinyManInside]

So, in your opinion does this team have less of a chance than in '85? That's what brought on this revelation isn't it? The big bad 22-9, '85 team featuring fresh of the boat Seikaly, Andre "the hack" Hawkins, and the defenseless midgets up top. You saw the highlight game (and I bet you got thirsty for some beer during that telecast too).

This years team is better in almost any meaningful criteria. Yet, it was the '85 squad that led you to deem this season is lost.

It is not too late for this season. We're safely in the tourney. We need a couple of what have now been identified as our key people to step up - BT and/or JS to start hitting, Rak to play well, and MCW with good decisions. It's a wide open field this year and I feel if we could make a run with just some minor improvements. I'd take this years chances over '85's all day long.

You win basketball games by putting the ball in the hoop. This team can't shoot.

 

[OrangePA]

So, in your opinion does this team have less of a chance than in '85? That's what brought on this revelation isn't it? The big bad 22-9, '85 team featuring fresh of the boat Seikaly, Andre "the hack" Hawkins, and the defenseless midgets up top. You saw the highlight game (and I bet you got thirsty for some beer during that telecast too).

This years team is better in almost any meaningful criteria. Yet, it was the '85 squad that led you to deem this season is lost.

It is not too late for this season. We're safely in the tourney. We need a couple of what have now been identified as our key people to step up - BT and/or JS to start hitting, Rak to play well, and MCW with good decisions. It's a wide open field this year and I feel if we could make a run with just some minor improvements. I'd take this years chances over '85's all day long.

No.

I didn't comment on the 1985 team's chances for the NC.

I'm pretty sure that team beat a great Georgetown team - the defending NC.

But no that was not the point.

The point was that that team had better talent than this team does at pretty much every position.

That team had a great PG, a great SF, two very good PFs, a very good Center - or soon to be very good.

I think what your hopeful post fails to appreciate - and I'm all for your hope - is that teams have figured out how to defend the Orange - and we can't seem to respond - our offense and our rebounding is as bad as I have seen in awhile - we are weaker at Center than we have been in years - Christmas is very unimpressive - and I don't see that changing in the next few weeks.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[SWC75]

The game is so different than it was 30 years ago. There is an incredible emphasis on strength now compared to back then. I think if you magically dropped a Final 4 team from 1985 into an arena to play against any upper division major conference team from 2013, they'd get blasted. That's because in this day and age the game is called so loosely, so much contact goes uncalled, the players are so big and strong, and interpretation of the rules has changed, that the players from 1985 would get physically destroyed. Most of those players would be freaking weaklings in comparison to the players of today, and they simply wouldn't be able to withstand the constant hand checking, grabbing, and body checking that goes on now.

And I also think that today's college players are plenty skilled (well, except for true post players. Pervis Ellison for example had a bizillion moves around the basket as a frosh), it's just that the game has turned into a giant rockfight because of the way they are reff'd these days. Offensive players just don't have (or more accurately are not allowed) any space to operate on offense anymore. Refs let the body checking on cuts go, and they allow defenders to slide under airboard players (charge!). It's hard to showcase basketball skills in a wrestling match.

Mason

Our teams of the late 80's would have swallowed this year's team whole. JB commented on this on the show last night: "When we played Georgetown in those days, there were about 8 future NBA players on the court. Now there will be a couple."

 

[SWC75]

No.

I didn't comment on the 1985 team's chances for the NC.

I'm pretty sure that team beat a great Georgetown team - the defending NC.

But no that was not the point.

The point was that that team had better talent than this team does at pretty much every position.

That team had a great PG, a great SF, two very good PFs, a very good Center - or soon to be very good.

I think what your hopeful post fails to appreciate - and I'm all for your hope - is that teams have figured out how to defend the Orange - and we can't seem to respond - our offense and our rebounding is as bad as I have seen in awhile - we are weaker at Center than we have been in years - Christmas is very unimpressive - and I don't see that changing in the next few weeks.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

the one guy on this year's team that would have started in 1985 would be Brandon Triche. CJ would have been the 6th man. MCW would have been the back-up point guard, (Sherman came a year later). Raf Addison and Wendell Alexis were a very good pair of forwards and none of our centers will start for a decade in the NBA like Rony Seikaly did. Rony was raw in '854 but he was still much better than these guys, (although I still have hopes for Coleman in the future).

 

[Sgt Cuse]

the one guy on this year's team that would have started in 1985 would be Brandon Triche. CJ would have been the 6th man. MCW would have been the back-up point guard, (Sherman came a year later). Raf Addison and Wendell Alexis were a very good pair of forwards and none of our centers will start for a decade in the NBA like Rony Seikaly did. Rony was raw in '854 but he was still much better than these guys, (although I still have hopes for Coleman in the future).

One starter...please. Yes, BT would start, so would Rak, so would CJ. Alexis didn't even start for that team, it was Hawkins. And if you don't think CJ is better than at least Hawkins, I wouldn't know what to say. And Pearl vs MCW is tight, especially when you start factoring in defense (which wasn't factored in -in the 80s, but is now).

Seikaly stunk as a frosh and would be the 4th center this year. To think he was more developed as a frosh than DC2, a McD AA, is a leap. Rak would have started back then as he does now. If you want to take NBA careers, then yes odds are in favor of Rony, but then again those same odds would favor MCW over Pearl.

This team is better than the '85 team. Recordwise, ranking wise, and talent wise. If all players from both squads were available for JB to choose from this year, Pearl, MCW, and BT would be the guard rotation; Raf, CJ, and Dirty would be the forward rotation; and Rak, BMK, and DC2 would be the center rotation. Seikaly would have been redshirted and Hawkins wouldn't see the floor - maybe discreetly told he should look for opportunities elsewhere.

 

[rrlbees]

One starter...please. Yes, BT would start, so would Rak, so would CJ. Alexis didn't even start for that team, it was Hawkins. And if you don't think CJ is better than at least Hawkins, I wouldn't know what to say. And Pearl vs MCW is tight, especially when you start factoring in defense (which wasn't factored in -in the 80s, but is now).

Seikaly stunk as a frosh and would be the 4th center this year. To think he was more developed as a frosh than DC2, a McD AA, is a leap. Rak would have started back then as he does now. If you want to take NBA careers, then yes odds are in favor of Rony, but then again those same odds would favor MCW over Pearl.

This team is better than the '85 team. Recordwise, ranking wise, and talent wise. If all players from both squads were available for JB to choose from this year, Pearl, MCW, and BT would be the guard rotation; Raf, CJ, and Dirty would be the forward rotation; and Rak, BMK, and DC2 would be the center rotation. Seikaly would have been redshirted and Hawkins wouldn't see the floor - maybe discreetly told he should look for opportunities elsewhere.

I think people are mistakenly looking at total career vs the ability and performance of players that specific year.

Sent using my Commodore 64

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I think people are mistakenly looking at total career vs the ability and performance of players that specific year.

Sent using my Commodore 64

True, and I wish this discussion could have been one of trying to compare this team to one of the ones from the late 80s, like we were able to have last year. This year unfortunately, the debate has been reduced to the 22-9 variety 85 team.

 

[realorange]

Anyone want to try and convince me on how college players were better back in the raf days?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It may not be so much they were better, but perhaps just more experienced as a team because they stayed around for four years.
Someone also suggested that they were better basketball players but less athletic.

 

[SWC75]

One starter...please. Yes, BT would start, so would Rak, so would CJ. Alexis didn't even start for that team, it was Hawkins. And if you don't think CJ is better than at least Hawkins, I wouldn't know what to say. And Pearl vs MCW is tight, especially when you start factoring in defense (which wasn't factored in -in the 80s, but is now).

Seikaly stunk as a frosh and would be the 4th center this year. To think he was more developed as a frosh than DC2, a McD AA, is a leap. Rak would have started back then as he does now. If you want to take NBA careers, then yes odds are in favor of Rony, but then again those same odds would favor MCW over Pearl.

This team is better than the '85 team. Recordwise, ranking wise, and talent wise. If all players from both squads were available for JB to choose from this year, Pearl, MCW, and BT would be the guard rotation; Raf, CJ, and Dirty would be the forward rotation; and Rak, BMK, and DC2 would be the center rotation. Seikaly would have been redshirted and Hawkins wouldn't see the floor - maybe discreetly told he should look for opportunities elsewhere.

Rak wouldn't start over Hawkins, who at least knew how to play positional defense. And Seikaly displaced Hawkins because even as a freshman, he was better. Pearl would have schooled MCW.

 

[suthrills]

The game is so different than it was 30 years ago. There is an incredible emphasis on strength now compared to back then. I think if you magically dropped a Final 4 team from 1985 into an arena to play against any upper division major conference team from 2013, they'd get blasted. That's because in this day and age the game is called so loosely, so much contact goes uncalled, the players are so big and strong, and interpretation of the rules has changed, that the players from 1985 would get physically destroyed. Most of those players would be freaking weaklings in comparison to the players of today, and they simply wouldn't be able to withstand the constant hand checking, grabbing, and body checking that goes on now.

And I also think that today's college players are plenty skilled (well, except for true post players. Pervis Ellison for example had a bizillion moves around the basket as a frosh), it's just that the game has turned into a giant rockfight because of the way they are reff'd these days. Offensive players just don't have (or more accurately are not allowed) any space to operate on offense anymore. Refs let the body checking on cuts go, and they allow defenders to slide under airboard players (charge!). It's hard to showcase basketball skills in a wrestling match.

Mason

Mason- you honestly believe that Worthy, Jordan, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, Mullin, DC etc would have been "physically destroyed" by today's players. Those were the guys playing 30 years ago and they would absolutely dominate today's game as they did 30 years ago.

 

[ORRange]

You're mistaken. Go back and look at SWC's post.

We disagree. No one can compare stats based on probability. Well if James played as many minutes as Raf he would of done this.THAT'S BULLSHEET. James wasn't good enough to get on the court, Raf did it. No one has any idea what James would of done with more time, but JB felt he didn't deserve the additional time. This nonsense premise of probability would have DC2 be Dennis Rodman and Rak being David Robinson. My god what a great rebounder and shotblocker they would have been. What BS. These players weren't on the court for a reason. They didn't deserve it. Raf earned his time. To compare the rebounding per minute of DC2 and DC is a joke and it's exactly what SWC is doing with James and Raf. APPLES and ORANGES. TOTAL MINUTES SAYS IT ALL. How many points will James score in his career compared to Raf? Per minute DC2 is a great rebounder but unfortunately he only played 6 minutes a game but he averaged more boards per minute than Bill Smith. PROBABILITY STATS SUCK, they don't bring the fact that DC2 was rebounding against the walkons of the other team. Get Real.

 

[orange2win]

Another way to look at this debate is to review the results achieved. I am a big fan of Raf., but consider this. In his senior year he was surrounded by an SU Dream Team - The Pearl who was in his final year at SU, Wendall Alexis also in his Sr. year, Seikaly, Monroe, Triche, Walker (a McDAA) and Sherm (the General). Could he have asked for more?

And how did Raf and this dream team do? They lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA to a #7 seed by 12 points.

I think JS and Co. will outperform that showing in a couple of weeks.

 

[rrlbees]

Another way to look at this debate is to review the results achieved. I am a big fan of Raf., but consider this. In his senior year he was surrounded by an SU Dream Team - The Pearl who was in his final year at SU, Wendall Alexis also in his Sr. year, Seikaly, Monroe, Triche, Walker (a McDAA) and Sherm (the General). Could he have asked for more?

And how did Raf and this dream team do? They lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA to a #7 seed by 12 points.

I think JS and Co. will outperform that showing in a couple of weeks.

And besides plating hurt 1/2 the season, Raf played out of position a lot at 2g which allowed JB to play his 5 best. Go look at Raf's career accomplishments I posted. I love James, but he's not gonna touch Raf's. Was he 1st team BE as a junior? Was he 2nd ream as a soph? Will he be this year? Will he ever be on the SU all century team? Did he lead the team in scoring for 3 years? This is a silly argument. David Robinson wasn't Raf's fault.

Sent using my Commodore 64

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Mason- you honestly believe that Worthy, Jordan, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, Mullin, DC etc would have been "physically destroyed" by today's players. Those were the guys playing 30 years ago and they would absolutely dominate today's game as they did 30 years ago.

Mason said "teams."

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[suthrills]

Mason said "teams."

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Re read his post. He specifically says "the players from 1985 would get physically destroyed"
Take our team from this year, would baye, MCW, JS or even Xmas physically destroy anyone from any era? Actually If use syracuse as an example, I think our teams in the 80's were stronger than our team this year, yet our team this year has managed to win 23 games.