Once Again It's Talent

[IthacaMatt]

I don't agree with the 2g thing. BT is our second leading scorer, Dion was the 4th pick, then Andy made it to the pro's, before him Devendorf was a McD AA and a huge scorer, then GMac.

You're right. I was thinking that almost as soon as I had posted it ("well, I forgot Dion just last year - edit - oh, and there was Andy, too, eh, screw it, I'll just leave it up there and someone will point it out.")

 

[IthacaMatt]

Can't let that one go without a word. Raf averaged 15pts/gm on 53.4 fg% to go with 5.2 rbs/game with 1876 pts for his career. James is probably going to average half Addison's totals. We could only wish James could shoot like Raf for the remainder of our games. Addison was a complete basketball player and those two players don't compare at all. JMO and I'm not dogging James but just feel Raf was way better.

Are you on crack? Raf averaged 15 ppg and Southerland is averaging 14 point. Wow, that's a big difference. Raf average 5.2 rebounds and guess what, Southerland averages 5.3. Raf shot 53% but there was no bonus for taking 3 point shots back then. Southerland is shooting 46% in an age when shooting percentages are way down as compared to 25 years ago.

Addison was more consistent, and a bit better player, but everyone in college was better back then. For today's game, James is pretty close (or have your forgotten Addison's wrist injury his senior year, and the failed experiment of playing him at the 2 guard?).

 

[albanycuse]

Anyone want to try and convince me on how college players were better back in the raf days?


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[Czar]

Holy , I know you can get away with your no talent trolling on the football board but this is ing ridiculous.

 

[Cusefan0307]

This team has talent. Are they playing to that talent? No. There is still a chance to make a run. I am pretty sure we have been in every game this year, so we aren't that far off.

 

[SWC75]

Are you on crack? Raf averaged 15 ppg and Southerland is averaging 14 point. Wow, that's a big difference. Raf average 5.2 rebounds and guess what, Southerland averages 5.3. Raf shot 53% but there was no bonus for taking 3 point shots back then. Southerland is shooting 46% in an age when shooting percentages are way down as compared to 25 years ago.

Addison was more consistent, and a bit better player, but everyone in college was better back then. For today's game, James is pretty close (or have your forgotten Addison's wrist injury his senior year, and the failed experiment of playing him at the 2 guard?).

As freshmen:
Addison 18.5m 18.3p 6.9r 2.6a 1.3s 0.7b 29.8+ 7.1mfg 1.5mft 2.8to 4.6pf 16.0- = 13.8NP 9.7OE 4.1FG
Southerland 14.1m 13.7p 6.4r 1.3a 1.4s 1.6b 24.4+ 7.0mfg 0.3mft 0.6to 3.5pf 11.4- = 13.0NP 6.4OE 6.6FG

As sophomores:
Addison 34.5m 20.5p 7.0r 2.6a 1.5s 0.7b 32.3+ 6.6mfg 0.8mft 2.8to 3.9pf 14.1- = 18.2NP 13.1OE 5.1FG
Southerland 14.1m 13.7p 6.4r 1.3a 1.4s 1.6b 24.4+ 7.0mfg 0.3mft 0.6to 3.5pf 11.4- = 13.0NP 6.4OE 6.6FG

As juniors:
Addison 35.8m 20.6p 6.5r 2.8a 1.7s 0.7b 32.3+ 7.8mfg 1.4mft 2.2to 3.1pf 14.6- = 17.7NP 11.4OE 6.3FG
Southerland 16.0m 17.0p 7.8r 0.9a 2.1s 2.3b = 30.1+ 7.4mfg 0.7mft 0.8to 3.3pf = 13.7- = 17.9NP 8.9OE 9.0FG

As seniors:
Addison 31.6m 18.9p 7.1r 5.2a 1.6s 0.6b 33.4+ 7.1mfg 0.7mft 2.8to 2.7pf 13.3- = 20.1NP 11.1OE 9.0FG
Southerland (to date) 27.7m 20.4p 7.6r 1.7a 2.0s 1.3b 33.0+ 8.7mfg 0.6mft 1.6to 3.1pf 14.0- = 19.0NP 11.1OE 7.9FG

My perception was that Addison was much the better player but looking at these numbers, they do seem comparable.

 

[LennX6]

WThe Orange played with Washington, Alexis, Addison, Hawkins, Seikaly, Monroe, Michael Brown, and others

Who is to say Washington would even have played a minute for Syracuse if conditions were comparable to the last decade as far as players "leaving early". Drafting on potential as we are prone to hear? Rony Seikaly , how long would he have lasted? Would we have even seen the beast he became in March 1987? Think its hard to compare. If today's rules were in effect in 85-86 you may have had a poor-shooting team with 3 small forwards trying to hide the fact we don't have a center, just like this team and still go 23-7

 

[rrlbees]

As freshmen:
Addison 18.5m 18.3p 6.9r 2.6a 1.3s 0.7b 29.8+ 7.1mfg 1.5mft 2.8to 4.6pf 16.0- = 13.8NP 9.7OE 4.1FG
Southerland 14.1m 13.7p 6.4r 1.3a 1.4s 1.6b 24.4+ 7.0mfg 0.3mft 0.6to 3.5pf 11.4- = 13.0NP 6.4OE 6.6FG

As sophomores:
Addison 34.5m 20.5p 7.0r 2.6a 1.5s 0.7b 32.3+ 6.6mfg 0.8mft 2.8to 3.9pf 14.1- = 18.2NP 13.1OE 5.1FG
Southerland 14.1m 13.7p 6.4r 1.3a 1.4s 1.6b 24.4+ 7.0mfg 0.3mft 0.6to 3.5pf 11.4- = 13.0NP 6.4OE 6.6FG

As juniors:
Addison 35.8m 20.6p 6.5r 2.8a 1.7s 0.7b 32.3+ 7.8mfg 1.4mft 2.2to 3.1pf 14.6- = 17.7NP 11.4OE 6.3FG
Southerland 16.0m 17.0p 7.8r 0.9a 2.1s 2.3b = 30.1+ 7.4mfg 0.7mft 0.8to 3.3pf = 13.7- = 17.9NP 8.9OE 9.0FG

As seniors:
Addison 31.6m 18.9p 7.1r 5.2a 1.6s 0.6b 33.4+ 7.1mfg 0.7mft 2.8to 2.7pf 13.3- = 20.1NP 11.1OE 9.0FG
Southerland (to date) 27.7m 20.4p 7.6r 1.7a 2.0s 1.3b 33.0+ 8.7mfg 0.6mft 1.6to 3.1pf 14.0- = 19.0NP 11.1OE 7.9FG

My perception was that Addison was much the better player but looking at these numbers, they do seem comparable.

Addison was a better player than Southerland is. Regardless of numbers. SU all century team, BE all rookie team, led the team in scoring 3 years, All BE 1st team his JR year and 2nd team his Soph and Sr years (when he played hurt and also played 2G vs SF). When he graduated he was the 2nd all time leading scorer. Played 6 years in the NBA and 4-5 in Italy.

Not even close.

 

[LennX6]

Yeah, it's a completely different game personnel wise. Oh and that whole 3 point shot rule.

Remember when Pearl left after his junior year and it seemed like a groundbreaking concept?

If you stay until your junior year now, people think something is wrong with you.

Exactly, looking back with todays glasses on, how odd does it seem that DC and JW stayed for 4 years? Billy Owens and Pearl , even MJ at UNC .for 3. Up until the Kobe-KG Era , the decision was pretty much to leave after 3 yrs or stay. Whole different game from a roster standpoint and the talent pool reflects it.

 

[LennX6]

I would say its more the fact that everyone outside CJ and southerland is a step down offensively from what we needed them to be this year, then it is a lack of talent. This team is no worse then 10-11 or 08-o9 though which means they are solid for a off year, and could make a really deep March run and go all the way.
I could think of atleast 9 other chemistry issues with this team. Had them in a list but the post was to long. It doesn't help going on a 8 to 0 run and then blowing it in three possessions.

We have always seemed to have a penchant for this seemingly in the last 4-5 yrs but , man , if we could find someway to get just half of the bunnies we miss, we would be 28-2. The fact that this affliction is prevelant game after games tells me the laws of averages ain't gonna even it out this season. There must have been 5-7 blown gimmes last nite. Grant had 2 that wouldn't have gone in if there were 9 foot baskets.

 

[ORRange]

Are you on crack? Raf averaged 15 ppg and Southerland is averaging 14 point. Wow, that's a big difference. Raf average 5.2 rebounds and guess what, Southerland averages 5.3. Raf shot 53% but there was no bonus for taking 3 point shots back then. Southerland is shooting 46% in an age when shooting percentages are way down as compared to 25 years ago.

Addison was more consistent, and a bit better player, but everyone in college was better back then. For today's game, James is pretty close (or have your forgotten Addison's wrist injury his senior year, and the failed experiment of playing him at the 2 guard?).

You're comparing JS numbers this year compared to Addison's CAREER stats. Whose on crack? Southerland's career numbers are half of Addison's. How many career points will James have? How many years did James lead the team in scoring? How many times was he named All BE? Total minutes played says it all. James couldn't even get on the court for 20 minutes a game his first 3 years, are you serious?

 

[orange2win]

Anyone who saw Addison play will say he was better than JS. However, the JS senior year numbers are pretty impressive.

Take last night. Our primary outside shooter went 1 for 10 from long range. Terrible - but he still scored 22 Pts. He also pulled down 10 boards and had only 1 TO. Had he hit his season average from outside last night, he would have scored at least 30 for the second time this year. Addison scored 30 or more three times while at SU.

By the way, the last 30+ game was by Wes Johnson back in 2010. They are quite rare.

 

[albanycuse]

By the way, the last 30+ game was by Wes Johnson back in 2010. They are quite rare.

James did it at Arkansas this year.


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[Quazzum69]

How do you compare players/teams of a different era in raw statistics? You'd have to standardize scoring in some fashion (adjust to possession, proportion of team's scoring, etc.) and still, it's a completely different game so you can't really interpret the differences. Any D1 team from 2013 would destroy the best teams from the 1980s if you could go back in time. Players today are so much more physical that it wouldn't matter that Player X from 1985 shot 7% better - he couldn't get an open shot!

PS: The team doesn't look like it's having fun out there. Unless they play with more passion, they're not going anywhere.

 

[orange2win]

James did it at Arkansas this year.


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Yea. And that's why I said "for the second time this year."

 

[OrangePA]

Holy , I know you can get away with your no talent trolling on the football board but this is ridiculous.

I see.

So I guess it's coaching?

No.

We are a top 20 team but we are not a NC contender- not this year.

This is our weakest team in a while.

I hope you prove me wrong but I don't think that'll happen.

 

[Czar]

I see.

So I guess it's coaching?

No.

We are a top 20 team but we are not a NC contender- not this year.

This is our weakest team in a while.

I hope you prove me wrong but I don't think that'll happen.

2008-09

 

[strumpfasaurus]

2008-09 had a MUCH more talented field. No one is even close to the UNC team or individually Blake Griffin. Was Melo the first one and done freshman?

 

[NineOneSeven]

2008-09 had a MUCH more talented field. No one is even close to the UNC team or individually Blake Griffin. Was Melo the first one and done freshman?

Carmelo transferred to the Nuggets after the 03 season boeheim pushed him out

 

[strumpfasaurus]

Carmelo transferred to the Nuggets after the 03 season boeheim pushed him out

That's what you get for winning most outstanding bust of a tournament. You drinking?

 

[NineOneSeven]

That's what you get for winning most outstanding bust of a tournament. You drinking?

BFine123

Nah, watching breaking bad. Good shiit. You ham right now?

 

[The General]

F the numbers or anything else. Raf Addison was a way better player at SU than Southerland. I find that offensive. Raf was legit as hell when it was way, way more competitive. I demand a retraction.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

BFine123

Nah, watching breaking bad. Good shiit. You ham right now?

Nope on Duty.

 

[OrangePA]

Disagree significantly with the first statement, couldn't agree more with the second. I think in terms of talent we've had a ton of teams with far less athletic talent -- I posted this earlier in the year but for all the complaining about Baye, can you imagine what would be going on here if we had ovcina or billy celuk running around out there? And we won a title with forth and mcneil for God's sake. MCW is a really gifted PG, Fair may not be overly talented athletically but he's got comparable gifts to many of our SFs. Christmas is the type of athlete you'd put together in a lab to play the 4 here.

Problem is, as you point out, these guys simply aren't that good at basketball. Look the part, have the measurables and some degree of skill, but ultimately are wanting in terms of basketball skill/production. Triche gets a lot of criticism, but at least I look at him as a guy who's simply not terribly gifted athletically. I mean, great athlete compared to you and me, but not too quick off the floor, slow release, mediocre first step/acceleration. MCW is an elite talent but is a woefully bad finisher in every respect. Xmas, I won't even comment generally but he has been dreadful given his ability.

There are plenty of issues to go around, but the bottom line is that this team isn't very good at basketball.

Right.

They're just not good enough BB players.

They may be fast and strong etc but they don't play BB well enough to win a NC and that's what we now expect nearly every year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How do you compare players/teams of a different era in raw statistics? You'd have to standardize scoring in some fashion (adjust to possession, proportion of team's scoring, etc.) and still, it's a completely different game so you can't really interpret the differences. Any D1 team from 2013 would destroy the best teams from the 1980s if you could go back in time. Players today are so much more physical that it wouldn't matter that Player X from 1985 shot 7% better - he couldn't get an open shot!

PS: The team doesn't look like it's having fun out there. Unless they play with more passion, they're not going anywhere.

AAU ball has hurt the quality of the game, enormously. Kids play games all day all summer, but they don't really get instruction. They lack fundamentals. There is no team play in AAU ball.