One thing was abundantly clear last night… | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

One thing was abundantly clear last night…

Agree that there was more energy for a minute or two.

If the players didn’t realize they were going to be playing zone at SU then they were either lied to, or they’re not very bright.

Also, most of these players would fit it nicely on a MAAC team.
Had JB switched when they were within a reasonable striking distance, say 10 points or less, they may have been able to climb back into the game and keep the crowd into it. Guys got confused a few times, but GT had to work a bit more for their shots. Reasonable chance they could have made it a game down the stretch if they had any offensive cohesion and switched out of the zone earlier.
 
It’s the players who make the zone though, this zone is 100% different than the other zones.
Better talent can help the zone reach its ceiling, but that ceiling is MUCH lower than what it was 10 years ago.
 
You could count on one hand the number of WIDE open 3's against the man last night. In 12 minutes, that's still not great,

You'd need both hands and feet to account for the open looks in the first 28 muntes.

That's progress at least.
 
Better talent can help the zone reach its ceiling, but that ceiling is MUCH lower than what it was 10 years ago.
Why though? Shooting percentage from three hasn’t gone up in 10 years.
 
I don’t recall any guards not getting a hand in the face of a shooter except the last 4 years.
I get your point...and I'll agree and add on...

You can't have a 4 year starter in the zone that's barely 6 feet tall and not drastically more active up top in 2023.

Even when he gets a hand up, he's way too easily shot over. The only way to combat that is with steals and 1.3 for your career isn't going to cut it.
 
I get your point...and I'll agree and add on...

You can't have a 4 year starter in the zone that's barely 6 feet tall and not drastically more active up top in 2023.

Even when he gets a hand up, he's way too easily shot over. The only way to combat that is with steals and 1.3 for your career isn't going to cut it.
I’ve been soft on Joe this year, I’ve become more sympathetic to his situation and legacy. He had no business playing at the top of the zone for four years and I that had been a major issue, that said he rebound’s better than our current forwards which is outright disgusting.
 
Ga Tech was in cruise control during our man to man. Confused them for a few trips and then they still got what they wanted whenever they wanted - they definitely took their foot off the gas.
 
I’ve been soft on Joe this year, I’ve become more sympathetic to his situation and legacy. He had no business playing at the top of the zone for four years and I that had been a major issue, that said he rebound’s better than our current forwards which is outright disgusting.
People thought it was an insult when I said he could be an incredible mid major guard but I didn't mean it that way. Some guys are ok at every level but not great at any of them, others kill at a lower level and aren't ok at the highest
 
I get your point...and I'll agree and add on...

You can't have a 4 year starter in the zone that's barely 6 feet tall and not drastically more active up top in 2023.

Even when he gets a hand up, he's way too easily shot over. The only way to combat that is with steals and 1.3 for your career isn't going to cut it.
The last year this bad from a percentage standpoint is the gillon year. That was the other huge zone letdown year even though it was obviously way better than this year
 
Why though? Shooting percentage from three hasn’t gone up in 10 years.
I’d look at team shooting % against us. Then look at kenpom which accounts for poor rebounding giving a team multiple chances to hit a 3 on the same possession.

Same percentage but higher volume = more points scored.
 
Why though? Shooting percentage from three hasn’t gone up in 10 years.
I started looking at this but ran out of time. It takes a lot to go through CB-REF to pull out stats and separate out the P6 or "good" teams from the dreck that the NCAA has approved for D1 basketball. It's the percentage of points scored from three and efficiency that I think is more relevant, but I don't know what those numbers are. Overall league percentage is mostly just noise.

ETA: and also, because so few teams run out a zone, I don't think that any change is going to show up in the overall league numbers. But when SU comes to town, more teams are ready to shoot lots of threes if they're allowed to.
 
I get your point...and I'll agree and add on...

You can't have a 4 year starter in the zone that's barely 6 feet tall and not drastically more active up top in 2023.

Even when he gets a hand up, he's way too easily shot over. The only way to combat that is with steals and 1.3 for your career isn't going to cut it.
Getting a hand up is really not what matters. Good shooters are unaffected by a hand if they’re squared up on a kickout. Catch and shoot. That’s the problem.

Our guys specialize in the heil hitler salute - it’s pointless - creating the illusion of a contested shot.

A contested shot is one where the shooter has to work under duress. Joe being 6 inches or 6 feet away is moot if the shooter stays in rhythm.
 

The teamrankings site is a favorite of mine looking at figures. While I agree on the talent there are 3 key factors where the zone fails that the above is missing.

1- Preventing teams from shooting where they want open shots. The zone offers and fails to prevent good shooters from getting set and getting an open shot if the ball moves well. Mtm prevents this far better - the 3man weave articles I posted yesterday do a great job pointing this out.

2- While overall efficiency hasn't changed a lot, the volume of 3ptrs taken, made and the reliance on them has shifted a great deal in the past 20 years especially the last decade. This is especially true with P6 teams and the top 150 or higher teams overall. Thus the one tool in the toolbox that if executed well can crush a zone- is now far more common and with far more players at this level capable of wielding it.

3. The number of shooters on the floor has increased. That is the basics of a heavier reliance but it reduces the ability of the zone to shade towards the shooters quickly enough and also forces us to over rotate to compensate.


With all of the above a clear issue, the zone is still something every program should have in its toolkit, just not as a primary defense. When deployed with the right players but even more importantly as a situational or matchup driven weapon, it's extremely effective.

Lastly- I think all of our preference should be for getting a coach that excels in bringing in top talent every year so that even though the zone is an issue- we are still able to push through to 20 wins nearly every year with what defense we play being moot. I realize that is what many are saying and high level talent is the biggest issue. We should play a defense that said talent wants to come here to play. If I'm dead wrong in that those kids want to play zone then hand me my crow and we go win with zone again and a Fab 5 on the court.
 
I don’t think Gerry and Jim have done much for recruiting imo, isn’t Benny the only top 100 guy on the team? And Benny didn’t even have great offers.
Mintz was top 35 I think. Other than that we are getting few guys who are even in the top 100. Though Taylor was in the 90's. Too many who are not even top 120.
 
shooting against a zone is easy compared to man. Its much harder to get a clean look against man.
 
What are the statistical odds of a D-1 CBB team winning when its opponent shoots 45% from 3? 50%?

Assume > 15 3FGA

Where can one find this info?
 
Feel like this happened in 2009 as well. The players didn’t really believe in the zone then either.

That team was slightly more talented tbf
Flynn and Harris would openly say in interviews that they wanted to play more man to man, and both were better man defenders. Still remember that Kansas comeback win when we switched man and those two turned the game around with their defense - Flynn kept picking their PG’s pocket at halfcourt, 2 or 3 times.
 
Line extension has hurt the zone. The gaps are bigger and guys need to cover more space. This was discussed the last time the line was extended.

Yep sure was. What are the shot clock year updates again?
 

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