OT: Cisse

[Townie72]

Soccer has really gained in popularity the past couple years since the World Cup. Not so much for MLS, but for European games, the ratings are getting pretty good.

The US market --- especially the "Early Adopters" that are watching the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and UEFA games --- aren't going to watch the MLS.

Americans, for whatever reason, want to watch the world's best, not AA and AAA quality leagues. We want to see packed houses, hear the chants, and see the "BEST" players in the world.

Matches like Chelsea v. Barcelona are the ones that US audiences will watch ... or MCI vs. MUN. I have MCI vs. Newcastle circled on my calendar. I wouldn't watch an MLS game if you paid me.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The US market --- especially the "Early Adopters" that are watching the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and UEFA games --- aren't going to watch the MLS.

Americans, for whatever reason, want to watch the world's best, not AA and AAA quality leagues. We want to see packed houses, hear the chants, and see the "BEST" players in the world.

Matches like Chelsea v. Barcelona are the ones that US audiences will watch ... or MCI vs. MUN. I have MCI vs. Newcastle circled on my calendar. I wouldn't watch an MLS game if you paid me.

Agree. After you've seen the very best in Champions League play, it's a bit hard to watch the skill level (or lack ...) in some of these MLS players. Of course, playing on artificial surfaces sucks, too. But yes, it's like watching AAA baseball, with a few stars sprinkled around here and there.

 

[bnoro]

The US market --- especially the "Early Adopters" that are watching the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and UEFA games --- aren't going to watch the MLS.

Americans, for whatever reason, want to watch the world's best, not AA and AAA quality leagues. We want to see packed houses, hear the chants, and see the "BEST" players in the world.

Matches like Chelsea v. Barcelona are the ones that US audiences will watch ... or MCI vs. MUN. I have MCI vs. Newcastle circled on my calendar. I wouldn't watch an MLS game if you paid me.

I would rather watch Wolves - Blackburn than the best two teams in the MLS play. I will say this though, the MLS is starting to get better. Little by little. They've had some highlight reel goals in the last few years. Nothing compared to Cisse's, but getting there. It will never be a top league in the world, but there will be a point where it might get up to the level of a league like the Dutch Eredivisie where young stars are developed and sold to the bigger leagues.

 

[Townie72]

I would rather watch Wolves - Blackburn than the best two teams in the MLS play. I will say this though, the MLS is starting to get better. Little by little. They've had some highlight reel goals in the last few years. Nothing compared to Cisse's, but getting there. It will never be a top league in the world, but there will be a point where it might get up to the level of a league like the Dutch Eredivisie where young stars are developed and sold to the bigger leagues.

I don't see the MLS getting better. As soon as they get or develop some great players, the European clubs will buy them. They will perpetually be one of the minor leagues.

Christiano Rinaldo makes more than the all the players in the MLS excepting Henry and Beckham. (That may be overstatement, but you get the point)

 

[DeGrozz]

I don't see the MLS getting better. As soon as they get or develop some great players, the European clubs will buy them. They will perpetually be one of the minor leagues.

Christiano Rinaldo makes more than the all the players in the MLS excepting Henry and Beckham. (That may be overstatement, but you get the point)

I wouldn't say that the MLS is never going to get any better (though I agree with you that it will never be a big-time league). It's true that the best players will almost always be sold to larger European clubs, but where I think the MLS has its best chance to improve is in developing it's role players, spot starters, and back-ups. There truly are some pretty "bad" professionals in the MLS. If the league does a good job at developing youth academies (which I believe it one of its current goals) I think average players in the league will get much better and then hopefully "all ships will rise with the tide."

This definitely won't happen overnight, but look where the league was 10 years ago to where it is now: attendance is up, the leagues is expanding, TV coverage is better, merchandising is better, and the overall level of play is improving.

Whether it could ever be like the Eredivisie (like a poster said earlier) I think is a stretch -- many of those clubs have MASSIVE youth systems, significantly larger fan bases, a larger pool of youth soccer talent to choose from (not more players, but more good players who are playing pick-up games hours a day from elementary school through high school), and significantly more money stemming from TV contracts and player sales (there are many passport/working paper restrictions in the UEFA leagues that's a barrier to the MLS selling talent).

 

[bnoro]

I don't see the MLS getting better. As soon as they get or develop some great players, the European clubs will buy them. They will perpetually be one of the minor leagues.

Christiano Rinaldo makes more than the all the players in the MLS excepting Henry and Beckham. (That may be overstatement, but you get the point)

Obviously Ronaldo makes more, so does Messi. They are the best players in the world.

You missed the point of my post. The Dutch Eredivisie is what the MLS should try to be. The MLS will never be the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1. They aren't trying to be. The best players in the world will play for the teams with the deepest pockets, and the MLS's single entity system will not change any time soon.

However, the Eredivisie puts numerous players in these top 5 leagues every transfer window. AZ, Ajax, Twente, PSV, and Feyenoord are all essentially feeder clubs, and since the big names know how good the competition is, they aren't wary of signing any of these guys. If the MLS can get to that level of competition and start selling its players for higher fees, they can in turn sign better players to their leagues. This is slowly happening.

As the US builds a better soccer profile with Deuce and Howard playing tremendously in the EPL, and others slowly getting recognition, this will happen. The MLS's level of play has grown considerably, especially with the expansion into the Pacific Northwest. Those fans have embraced the product and that only helps.

 

[Townie72]

Obviously Ronaldo makes more, so does Messi. They are the best players in the world.

You missed the point of my post. The Dutch Eredivisie is what the MLS should try to be. The MLS will never be the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1. They aren't trying to be. The best players in the world will play for the teams with the deepest pockets, and the MLS's single entity system will not change any time soon.

However, the Eredivisie puts numerous players in these top 5 leagues every transfer window. AZ, Ajax, Twente, PSV, and Feyenoord are all essentially feeder clubs, and since the big names know how good the competition is, they aren't wary of signing any of these guys. If the MLS can get to that level of competition and start selling its players for higher fees, they can in turn sign better players to their leagues. This is slowly happening.

As the US builds a better soccer profile with Deuce and Howard playing tremendously in the EPL, and others slowly getting recognition, this will happen. The MLS's level of play has grown considerably, especially with the expansion into the Pacific Northwest. Those fans have embraced the product and that only helps.

I'm enjoying this conversation as you know a lot more about this whole subject than I do ... or ever will probably.

My point is that soccer may become a nuch bigger deal in the US. But it's the Top European clubs that are going to attract the US fans and not the MLS teams. Americans will watch the biggest, the best, the most spectacular, the critical games, etc. That's just the way we are.

Think of how many US basketball fans watch only the NBA finals.

I think more and more Americans are going to tune into the UEFA semis and Finals, the big games in the EPL and for Barca vs. RM.

I went to a Chelsea vs. AC Milan "friendly" in Baltimore. The thing was sold out with 70,000 fans. Drogba scored the first game of the goal from about 30 yards out into the upper right hand corner of the net. It was roughly equivalent to watching Michael Jordan drove through an entire team and dunk.

The MLS can probably elevate the quality of the teams if it follows the model you have suggested. But unless it becomes World Class, its going to be a hard sell in the US.

I started watching in the World Cup 6 years ago. I was stunned to figure out eventually that the good Club teams would destry any of those National teams based on the precision of their games. Watching Barcelona pass the ball around waiting for a seam to open up is like watching a cobra picking his time to strike. I still can't believe Chelsea beat them.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don't see the MLS getting better. As soon as they get or develop some great players, the European clubs will buy them. They will perpetually be one of the minor leagues.

Christiano Rinaldo makes more than the all the players in the MLS excepting Henry and Beckham. (That may be overstatement, but you get the point)

MLS needs to be profitable enough to offer all players competitive contracts. Right now, they overpay for up to 3 designated players, and then the rest of the guys make a pittance - something like $25,000 - kind of like minor league baseball players. If they get rid of the salary structure and let the free market rule, you may not pay so much for the aging high salaried star who is supposedly going to generate box office for you, but you'll get a more balanced, talented team overall.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I wouldn't say that the MLS is never going to get any better (though I agree with you that it will never be a big-time league). It's true that the best players will almost always be sold to larger European clubs, but where I think the MLS has its best chance to improve is in developing it's role players, spot starters, and back-ups. There truly are some pretty "bad" professionals in the MLS. If the league does a good job at developing youth academies (which I believe it one of its current goals) I think average players in the league will get much better and then hopefully "all ships will rise with the tide."

This definitely won't happen overnight, but look where the league was 10 years ago to where it is now: attendance is up, the leagues is expanding, TV coverage is better, merchandising is better, and the overall level of play is improving.

Whether it could ever be like the Eredivisie (like a poster said earlier) I think is a stretch -- many of those clubs have MASSIVE youth systems, significantly larger fan bases, a larger pool of youth soccer talent to choose from (not more players, but more good players who are playing pick-up games hours a day from elementary school through high school), and significantly more money stemming from TV contracts and player sales (there are many passport/working paper restrictions in the UEFA leagues that's a barrier to the MLS selling talent).

I was reading an interview with Eric Wynalda the other day, and he was blasting MLS. Said that although attendance is up, their decision to stick to the summer-based schedule (May to November) means that their best games (championship and cup finals) are taking place head-to-head against NFL and college football, and are getting almost zero TV ratings as a result. He said that if MLS adopted the European calendar schedule (Aug to May), then we would have MLS's top games going up against early hockey and NBA playoffs, early season baseball and golf. MLS could do much better on TV if it wasn't up against the NFL/College football juggernaut. Everything else is going well in MLS - teams are solvent, attendance is pretty good, teams are playing in "right sized" stadiums. But the TV package is awful, and will remain so in its current form.

For those who say, "you can't play in winter" - well, other leagues (except the EPL) take a month or two off in the middle of the winter. We could totally do that here. Skip January and February - play from mid-August (if you want to get a jump on football) or Labor Day until Christmas / New Year's. Then take off January and say half of February. Teams come back and train for 2 weeks and then start up again on March 1 until Memorial Day. That would be a great schedule.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Obviously Ronaldo makes more, so does Messi. They are the best players in the world.

You missed the point of my post. The Dutch Eredivisie is what the MLS should try to be. The MLS will never be the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1. They aren't trying to be. The best players in the world will play for the teams with the deepest pockets, and the MLS's single entity system will not change any time soon.

However, the Eredivisie puts numerous players in these top 5 leagues every transfer window. AZ, Ajax, Twente, PSV, and Feyenoord are all essentially feeder clubs, and since the big names know how good the competition is, they aren't wary of signing any of these guys. If the MLS can get to that level of competition and start selling its players for higher fees, they can in turn sign better players to their leagues. This is slowly happening.

As the US builds a better soccer profile with Deuce and Howard playing tremendously in the EPL, and others slowly getting recognition, this will happen. The MLS's level of play has grown considerably, especially with the expansion into the Pacific Northwest. Those fans have embraced the product and that only helps.

Personally, I don't consider French football to be in the top tier. They are the beginning of Tier 2. Even tho PSG is getting tons of oil money right now, they are basically a selling league.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm enjoying this conversation as you know a lot more about this whole subject than I do ... or ever will probably.

My point is that soccer may become a nuch bigger deal in the US. But it's the Top European clubs that are going to attract the US fans and not the MLS teams. Americans will watch the biggest, the best, the most spectacular, the critical games, etc. That's just the way we are.

Think of how many US basketball fans watch only the NBA finals.

I think more and more Americans are going to tune into the UEFA semis and Finals, the big games in the EPL and for Barca vs. RM.

I went to a Chelsea vs. AC Milan "friendly" in Baltimore. The thing was sold out with 70,000 fans. Drogba scored the first game of the goal from about 30 yards out into the upper right hand corner of the net. It was roughly equivalent to watching Michael Jordan drove through an entire team and dunk.

The MLS can probably elevate the quality of the teams if it follows the model you have suggested. But unless it becomes World Class, its going to be a hard sell in the US.

I started watching in the World Cup 6 years ago. I was stunned to figure out eventually that the good Club teams would destry any of those National teams based on the precision of their games. Watching Barcelona pass the ball around waiting for a seam to open up is like watching a cobra picking his time to strike. I still can't believe Chelsea beat them.

Think of this, though. Top Euro teams like Barca, Real Madrid, Inter, Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal send teams to the US to face MLS sides or all-star teams each summer in exhibitions. As the US gets more competitive in these matches, it stirs fan interest in both the Euro / elite team, AND in the MLS home team who hopefully are competitive (and eventually pull some upsets) against the elite competition.

It's like when the 1992 basketball Dream Team bashed everyone in the Olympics, it really showed what is the elite level of this sport to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world was changed by it. The same thing will eventually happen in the US, so long as we keep on the right path, teams stay solvent and revenues continue to grow.

 

[Townie72]

Think of this, though. Top Euro teams like Barca, Real Madrid, Inter, Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal send teams to the US to face MLS sides or all-star teams each summer in exhibitions. As the US gets more competitive in these matches, it stirs fan interest in both the Euro / elite team, AND in the MLS home team who hopefully are competitive (and eventually pull some upsets) against the elite competition.

It's like when the 1992 basketball Dream Team bashed everyone in the Olympics, it really showed what is the elite level of this sport to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world was changed by it. The same thing will eventually happen in the US, so long as we keep on the right path, teams stay solvent and revenues continue to grow.

Seems like a huge stretch to me.

I'll stick with Americans becoming more interested in the top European clubs. We'll see what happens beyond that.

 

[bnoro]

Seems like a huge stretch to me.

I'll stick with Americans becoming more interested in the top European clubs. We'll see what happens beyond that.

I agree that most Americans (me included) will watch the Premier League before the MLS. But I still will go to MLS games for the experience. Live experience can't be discounted. TV wise, sure, EPL will always get better ratings. But MLS attendances will continue to rise as the game gains more traction.

Hell, ESPN (not ESPN2) showed the Manchester Derby. This was impossible just 5 years ago. It shows the growth of the game.

 

[Noexcuse]

I'm enjoying this conversation as you know a lot more about this whole subject than I do ... or ever will probably.

My point is that soccer may become a nuch bigger deal in the US. But it's the Top European clubs that are going to attract the US fans and not the MLS teams. Americans will watch the biggest, the best, the most spectacular, the critical games, etc. That's just the way we are.

Think of how many US basketball fans watch only the NBA finals.

I think more and more Americans are going to tune into the UEFA semis and Finals, the big games in the EPL and for Barca vs. RM.

I went to a Chelsea vs. AC Milan "friendly" in Baltimore. The thing was sold out with 70,000 fans. Drogba scored the first game of the goal from about 30 yards out into the upper right hand corner of the net. It was roughly equivalent to watching Michael Jordan drove through an entire team and dunk.

The MLS can probably elevate the quality of the teams if it follows the model you have suggested. But unless it becomes World Class, its going to be a hard sell in the US.

I started watching in the World Cup 6 years ago. I was stunned to figure out eventually that the good Club teams would destry any of those National teams based on the precision of their games. Watching Barcelona pass the ball around waiting for a seam to open up is like watching a cobra picking his time to strike. I still can't believe Chelsea beat them.

The National teams really spend very little time together. It's no coincidence that Spain is reigning World Champions while Barca is still the top World Club team (despite the unforgiving woodwork).

 

[mountaincuse]

They aren't playing UCL.

3rd Arsenal 66 pts GD 24
4th Spurs 65 pts GD 23
5th Newcastle 65 pts GD 9

They have a much tougher schedule than the gunners and spurs mainly since they play Man City. I think Spurs jumps Arsenal and finishes 3. Newcastle ends up being odd man out.

After the recent struggles, i'd love to see spurs jump arsenal, especially since they may need third to make the CL.

COYS!

 

[bnoro]

After the recent struggles, i'd love to see spurs jump arsenal, especially since they may need third to make the CL.

COYS!

If we get up to third, our offseason will be very interesting, especially if Modric stays.

 

[Townie72]

The National teams really spend very little time together. It's no coincidence that Spain is reigning World Champions while Barca is still the top World Club team (despite the unforgiving woodwork).

That's my point exactly ... that the precision developed by the club teams can't be achieved by the National teams.

Rooney is a great player ..., but what makes him so effective is being fed by the wings at just the right place and just the right time.

 

[Noexcuse]

That's my point exactly ... that the precision developed by the club teams can't be achieved by the National teams.

Rooney is a great player ..., but what makes him so effective is being fed by the wings at just the right place and just the right time.

Yeah, definitely. Still nothing beats the excitement and drama of the World Cup and European Championship Tournaments. Especially if you have a National Team that you follow.

 

[Townie72]

I agree that most Americans (me included) will watch the Premier League before the MLS. But I still will go to MLS games for the experience. Live experience can't be discounted. TV wise, sure, EPL will always get better ratings. But MLS attendances will continue to rise as the game gains more traction.

Hell, ESPN (not ESPN2) showed the Manchester Derby. This was impossible just 5 years ago. It shows the growth of the game.

I live in DC. I have been to see the DC United play. The audience consists almost entirely of South and Central Americans. The second largest group appears to be fathers dragging kids who play socceer to the games. I saw little of the sports fans that make up the fan base for the Redskins, the Capials, the Nationals and the Wizards.

I do quite a bit of European travel, so I go to games when I can. I have been to Barcelona, Madrid, Hannover, London and Siena to watch games. I am planning to spend two or three weeks in England next winter to take in as many as 8 games at 8 different stadiums along with visiting pubs before and after games.

After watching 1 million NFL games, I am officially sick of them. The predictability of the games and the constant preening and celebrating have worn me out. EPL football has it's celebrations and the flopping is irritating, but the NFL is all celebrations all the time.

 

[PoppyHart]

That's my point exactly ... that the precision developed by the club teams can't be achieved by the National teams.

Rooney is a great player ..., but what makes him so effective is being fed by the wings at just the right place and just the right time.

But then there are players like Klose and Mueller who can't stop scoring for their national teams.

 

[bnoro]

Shocked that Arsenal dropped points to the Canaries today, 3rd for Spurs is there for the taking.

Come on you Spurs!

 

[mountaincuse]

Shocked that Arsenal dropped points to the Canaries today, 3rd for Spurs is there for the taking.

Come on you Spurs!

It's all in their hands, just win the last two and potentially leave Arse out of the CL.

 

[ROCcuse]

Can't wait till transfers can go through. Hazard is definitely on the way to Manchester, City being the most likely destination.

Also reading some funny , tops being - RvP to City for 25 mill pounds at 250k per week. Considering Carroll was 35 mill.. Yep, sounds about right. Lulz..

Can only hope that guys like Modric, Bale, Tiote, Ba and Cisse will stay put at least for one more season, but already hearing about a hefty Barca bid put in for Bale.

 

[bnoro]

Can't wait till transfers can go through. Hazard is definitely on the way to Manchester, City being the most likely destination.

Also reading some funny ****, tops being - RvP to City for 25 mill pounds at 250k per week. Considering Carroll was 35 mill.. Yep, sounds about right. Lulz..

Can only hope that guys like Modric, Bale, Tiote, Ba and Cisse will stay put at least for one more season, but already hearing about a hefty Barca bid put in for Bale.

The Barca news is straight garbage. As long as Chelsea doesn't pull a miracle and beat Bayern, Spurs is going to hang onto Bale and Modric (Bale's not leaving no matter what, from what I read). Vertonghen (Ajax -> Spurs) deal is almost done, and rumor is they will land Loic Remy from Marseille as well. I hope that's the case.

Also, Can't see RVP leaving Arsenal for anything less than 50. He's been so good for them, and as they say, "he scores when he wants".

Hulk to Chelsea from Porto is even more interesting considering Porto rates him at 100 Mil. Doubt they pay that much.

 

[ROCcuse]

The Barca news is straight garbage. As long as Chelsea doesn't pull a miracle and beat Bayern, Spurs is going to hang onto Bale and Modric (Bale's not leaving no matter what, from what I read). Vertonghen (Ajax -> Spurs) deal is almost done, and rumor is they will land Loic Remy from Marseille as well. I hope that's the case.

Also, Can't see RVP leaving Arsenal for anything less than 50. He's been so good for them, and as they say, "he scores when he wants".

Hulk to Chelsea from Porto is even more interesting considering Porto rates him at 100 Mil. Doubt they pay that much.

the only leverage clubs will have on a RvP fee is that this is the only season he's stayed injury free but I agree 50 mill is reasonable fee/gamble for that quality.

Don't know enough about Remy's game play. think his style of play would fit at Spurs?

and where would Vertonghen fit in? know he is versatile and can fit in at CDM, CB, LB. Most likely cover for King/Dawson/Kaboul when they inevitably get injured haha or Parker probs on his way?

and really who the feck is going to pay 100 mill for Hulk? lol