OT: For Out of Towners Hofmann's Going Big Time

[OrangeChris]

You two guys must be young. And I mean that in a good way. I'm sure my two daughters wouldn't get it as well. Times were different when I was a kid. I remember traveling through Delaware when I was 13 by bus and stopping at the Dover bus station. The drinking fountains were still labelled "Whites" and "Coloreds". Most white people, including educated ones, threw the "n" word around in public with hardly a second thought. "Cooney" was actually a semi-polite term in the minds of some people.

I'm actually fairly young and I'm well aware of the racial implications of the term, so much so that I didn't even think it needed to be brought up in this thread! I was apparently wrong, but for once that's a good thing. It's great to see that that particular slur fade into obscurity, although I remain mildly shocked that anyone over the age of 25 would be ignorant of it.

 

[OrangeChris]

My experience is the opposite of yours. Relatives, friends, etc... called it "cooney". The closer to the city you are, "cooney"...the further away you go , it's "coney". The reason is likely because "cooney" is a verbal thing...so the people who mostly read it, would pronounce it the way it is spelled.

That's an interesting theory. Where do you suppose they would read the word, though? If memory serves, the word "coney" isn't printed on the packaging, so I suppose the printed word would be limited to Herald Journal/Post Standard articles on the product?

 

[xc84]

That's an interesting theory. Where do you suppose they would read the word, though? If memory serves, the word "coney" isn't printed on the packaging, so I suppose the printed word would be limited to Herald Journal/Post Standard articles on the product?

I think it is on the menu at Heids.

 

[xc84]

Does that person still work there? because I've talked to about a dozen different people there over the years and they've all told me it's pronounced "coney" They even told the "Man v. Food" crew that!

Ahhh...maybe that was the "video" he was talking about. No, this was a Liverpool kid who grew up eating at Heid's and worked there as a teen. I'd love to hear from pre-1990 employees and get their thought on it here though. I acknowledged that since around 1990 more people pronounce it the way it is spelled. so that's over 20 years ago.

 

[OrangeChris]

Ahhh...maybe that was the "video" he was talking about. No, this was a Liverpool kid who grew up eating at Heid's and worked there as a teen. I'd love to hear from pre-1990 employees and get their thought on it here though.

No, I actually (think) I know the video he's talking about. It's this one:

 

[OrangeChris]

I think it is on the menu at Heids.

Good call. It's on the menu today, so very well could have been then.

 

[xc84]

No, I actually (think) I know the video he's talking about. It's this one:

That could be it! The older guy from CA on the video who said he was eating there since 4 called it a "cooney" and the younger guy called it a "coney". The employee referenced "Coney Island" but I've never heard why a white hot dog would be named after Coney Island but a red one (which they actually sell in Coney Island) would not be called a "Coney". This mystery is only deepening. Calling on nutty old and scary Heid's employees from pre-1990, please weigh in!

 

[MaxwellCuse]

I'm actually fairly young and I'm well aware of the racial implications of the term, so much so that I didn't even think it needed to be brought up in this thread! I was apparently wrong, but for once that's a good thing. It's great to see that that particular slur fade into obscurity, although I remain mildly shocked that anyone over the age of 25 would be ignorant of it.

My family moved from New Jersey to Syracuse in 1966. The kids in the neighborhood were very clear, when introducing me to their preferred pronunciation of the word coney, of the racial insult that lay behind it. That was then. It may well be that later generations have called Hofman's coneys "cooneys" without the slightest hint that the word once had a derogatory meaning. That it does not have a negative connotation to many posters is fine. For me it always will, which is why I call them "coneys."

 

[OrangeChris]

It's also worth noting that the term "coney" is hardly exclusive to CNY, although it's unique meaning surely is. Go to various parts of Ohio and order a "coney" and you'll get something that resembles neither the dogs from Hofmann's nor the Brooklyn staple. The word itself has just become slang for "hot dog-esque food," but it takes on very different specific meanings in various regions. At its heart though, you're just acknowledging the birthplace of the American dog, while still putting on a (sometimes drastic) regional spin.

 

[xc84]

My family moved from New Jersey to Syracuse in 1966. The kids in the neighborhood were very clear, when introducing me to their preferred pronunciation of the word coney, of the racial insult that lay behind it. That was then. It may well be that later generations have called Hofman's coneys "cooneys" without the slightest hint that the word once had a derogatory meaning. That it does not have a negative connotation to many posters is fine. For me it always will, which is why I call them "coneys."

Did those kids understand these were actually white hot dogs?

 

[OrangeChris]

Did those kids understand these were actually white hot dogs?

Racism is rarely about being clever (let alone accurate), and is usually more a function of forwarding a particular brand of ignorance in the most expedient manner possible. The addition of a single letter is convenient, thus attractive to a bigot (not to mention a child). I'm sure there might have been one or two possessing a modicum of cleverness, and they no doubt appreciated the irony inherent in a black/white juxtaposition, but I doubt they cared.

For the record, I somewhat doubt the racial theory as an explanation of the origins of the "cooney" pronunciation, but I don't doubt for a second that at least some (small segment of) people utilized it for that reason.

 

[xc84]

It's also worth noting that the term "coney" is hardly exclusive to CNY, although it's unique meaning surely is. Go to various parts of Ohio and order a "coney" and you'll get something that resembles neither the dogs from Hofmann's nor the Brooklyn staple. The word itself has just become slang for "hot dog-esque food," but it takes on very different specific meanings in various regions. At its heart though, you're just acknowledging the birthplace of the American dog, while still putting on a (sometimes drastic) regional spin.

Where, other than Syracuse is the word "coney" a reference to something "hot-dog-esque" that does not have a (red hot) beef or pork frank as it's main feature? And if not a beef or pork (red) frank as a basis, what is it?

 

[xc84]

Racism is rarely about being clever (let alone accurate), and is usually more a function of forwarding a particular brand of ignorance in the most expedient manner possible. The addition of a single letter is convenient, thus attractive to a bigot (not to mention a child). I'm sure there might have been one or two possessing a modicum of cleverness, and they no doubt appreciated the irony inherent in a black/white juxtaposition, but I doubt they cared.

My guess is they heard the word used for coney ...and then linked it to the racial slur because it sounded similar. Kids do that sort of thing. That just means they were little bigots of their time but does not mean the pronunciation itself of "cooney" is rooted in racisim.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Did those kids understand these were actually white hot dogs?

Absolutely. The point wasn't the color of the sausage. The point was to insult African-Americans. I don't know if the genesis of the pronunciation "cooney" pre-dates the "race riot" that took place in Syracuse in the aftermath of the murder of Martin Luther King in 1967 or not. In my memory 1966-67-68 all more or less blur together. That certain locals used the term "cooney" rather than "coney" as a -- "clever" -- way to insult a racial minority, there is no doubt about it in my mind.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

My guess is they heard the word used for coney ...and then linked it to the racial slur because it sounded similar. Kids do that sort of thing.

Well, no one is arguing the fact that the word "coney" pre-dates the local variant "cooney." Calling a hotdof a coney or a frank goes back to the early 20th century or earlier. Pronouncing the word "coney" as "cooney" I've only heard one place and that is in Syracuse.

 

[OrangeChris]

Where, other than Syracuse is the word "coney" a reference to something "hot-dog-esque" that does not have a (red hot) beef or pork frank as it's main feature? And if not a beef or pork (red) frank as a basis, what is it?

Why can't it have red hot beef or pork frank as it's main feature? That's not what I wrote. I wrote "hot dog-esque" period. I also cited Ohio. In the state of Ohio the word "coney" is in their vernacular, but if you order it you'll get something that in no way resembles what you consider to be a coney. I think parts of Michigan also have a subtle variation from their Ohio neighbors.

 

[OrangeChris]

My guess is they heard the word used for coney ...and then linked it to the racial slur because it sounded similar. Kids do that sort of thing. That just means they were little bigots of their time but does not mean the pronunciation itself of "cooney" is rooted in racisim.

That was kind of my whole point, so yeah.

 

[xc84]

Absolutely. The point wasn't the color of the sausage. The point was to insult African-Americans. I don't know if the genesis of the pronunciation "cooney" pre-dates the "race riot" that took place in Syracuse in the aftermath of the murder of Martin Luther King in 1967 or not. In my memory 1966-67-68 all more or less blur together. That certain locals used the term "cooney" rather than "coney" as a -- "clever" -- way to insult a racial minority, there is no doubt about it in my mind.

My dad is a WWII vet born in '23. He went to Heid's way back after he got home from Germany. He's always called it "cooney". I never heard him ever use a racial slur or say anything derogatory about blacks...ever. It was not clever for him...it was just the name of them. By the way, we don't call it "Kiel-basa" either..we called it "kabasi" which I am sure someone could come up with a racial thing on that too and decry it not being pronounced the way it is spelled. How about Capicola? Ask an Italian how to pronounce that.

 

[tipphill]

geezes were talking hot dogs here,not hotdog emancipation???i was going to heids since i was 5-6yrs old. in the mid 50's. we always called the cooneys. there was no racial conintation to my and my 7 siblings knowledge.where the hell did that come from and what the hell does delaware water fountains have to do with HOT DOGS!! now some make reference to the "n" word, which has abolutely nothing to do with buns or hotdogs. maybe we can even complicate this thread even further.

 

[tipphill]

My dad is a WWII vet born in '23. He went to Heid's way back after he got home from Germany. He's always called it "cooney". I never heard him ever use a racial slur or say anything derogatory about blacks...ever. It was not clever for him...it was just the name of them. By the way, we don't call it "Kiel-basa" either..we called it "kabasi" which I am sure someone could come up with a racial thing on that too and decry it not being pronounced the way it is spelled. How about Capicola? Ask an Italian how to pronounce that.

you said it all right there and we called it kabasi as well

 

[xc84]

Why can't it have red hot beef or pork frank as it's main feature? That's not what I wrote. I wrote "hot dog-esque" period. I also cited Ohio. In the state of Ohio the word "coney" is in their vernacular, but if you order it you'll get something that in no way resembles what you consider to be a coney. I think parts of Michigan also have a subtle variation from their Ohio neighbors.

I just thought when you said "and you'll get something that resembles neither the dogs from Hofmann's nor the Brooklyn staple." you meant it was not like either. Since Coney Island is known for its ("red hot") franks...I would not find it unusual for that type of hot dog to be called a "coney" elsewhere (like in Ohio)...even if they e.g. slather it with cheese. However, it strikes me as odd to take a white hot and declare it a "coney" in reference to what is sold in Coney Island...which it is not.

 

[OrangeChris]

I just thought when you said "and you'll get something that resembles neither the dogs from Hofmann's nor the Brooklyn staple." you meant it was not like either. Since Coney Island is known for its ("red hot") franks...I would not find it unusual for that type of hot dog to be called a "coney" elsewhere (like in Ohio)...even if they e.g. slather it with cheese. However, it strikes me as odd to take a white hot and declare it a "coney" in reference to what is sold in Coney Island...which it is not.

Speaking as someone that's lived in Brooklyn, absolutely nobody calls a dog on Coney Island a "coney." It's just a plain hot dog, and you would just call it a hot dog. If you go to Michigan or Ohio, a coney is a little (sometimes LOT) larger than a traditional Coney Island hot dog, and usually slathered in some kind of sauce. In CNY, the coney is the same size as a normal hot dog, but the color (and meats) are different. The name "Coney" does not reference anything specific about the dogs on Coney Island, since there's nothing to reference: they're just plain dogs there. The name simply evokes the origins of the style of food while still allowing for regional variations. This notion that there's some magic special hot dog awaiting people on Coney Island is apocryphal.

 

[xc84]

Speaking as someone that's lived in Brooklyn, absolutely nobody calls a dog on Coney Island a "coney." It's just a plain hot dog, and you would just call it a hot dog. If you go to Michigan or Ohio, a coney is a little (sometimes LOT) larger than a traditional Coney Island hot dog, and usually slathered in some kind of sauce. In CNY, the coney is the same size as a normal hot dog, but the color (and meats) are different. The name "Coney" does not reference anything specific about the dogs on Coney Island, since there's nothing to reference: they're just plain dogs there. The name simply evokes the origins of the style of food while still allowing for regional variations. This notion that there's some magic special hot dog awaiting people on Coney Island is apocryphal.

That's great but I still have not found any place outside of Syracuse where the term "coney" is not in reference to a red hot dog/frank ...the kind they sell in Coney Island. If you go anywhere outside of Syracuse and try to peddle a (white) coney as a "hot dog", people would think you are nuts. However, those other things you referenced are hot dogs...sure some bigger and some with different toppings...but still "hot dogs"...which is what they sell and are famous for in Coney Island.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Why can't it have red hot beef or pork frank as it's main feature? That's not what I wrote. I wrote "hot dog-esque" period. I also cited Ohio. In the state of Ohio the word "coney" is in their vernacular, but if you order it you'll get something that in no way resembles what you consider to be a coney. I think parts of Michigan also have a subtle variation from their Ohio neighbors.

Yep. Michigan, where I've also lived, does enjoy their coneys. Unlike Hofmann's white snappies, the Michigan coneys are red hot dogs. (At least in the part of Michigan I lived in)

 

[OrangeChris]

That's great but I still have not found any place outside of Syracuse where the term "coney" is not in reference to a red hot dog/frank ...the kind they sell in Coney Island. If you go anywhere outside of Syracuse and try to peddle a (white) coney as a "hot dog", people would think you are nuts. However, those other things you referenced are hot dogs...sure some bigger and some with different toppings...but still "hot dogs"...which is what they sell and are famous for in Coney Island.

Well if you go outside of Upstate NY/Michigan/Ohio the word "coney" has no meaning to 95% of the country's population, and that includes people in NYC. If you bought a Coney Island hot dog, handed it to someone from Michigan and said, "here's your coney," he would look at you like you're nuts. That's not a coney to him, that's a hot dog, just like it is to every other person in the country. "Coney" has a very specific meaning to that person and it goes way beyond just the color of the dog to include very specific toppings. Likewise, coney has a specific meaning to Upstate New Yorkers that includes the color and type of meats.

The Upstate NY coney is similar to the dogs on coney island because they're just that: plain, simple dogs. A CNY coney doesn't need to be slathered in chili to be called a coney, it just is... but the colors different. A Michigan/Ohio coney requires it to be covered in a bunch of very specific toppings (none of which you'd see on Coney Island)... but the color of the actual dog is the same. You see how you're just picking the one similar element and deciding that's the most important thing?

The fact is, the only thing that matters is that they're all meats in an enclosed casing, served in a bun. They all belong to the hot dog "family," and, as such, owe a debt to the original American hot dog stand on Coney Island. The fact that a few random dogs in the USA decide to pay tribute to those humble origins by incorporating it into the name is kind of cool if you ask me, especially since there's nothing special about this mythical Coney Island hot dog that doesn't even really exist! I swear, you'd think we were comparing a strip steak to a head of lettuce here!