OT: Why I Loathe the University of Alabama

[bcubs9497]

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/uab_football_first_step_in_hid.html

"At 10:20 am on Dec. 1, 2014, I received a message about what was really going on at UAB. It said, in part:"The hidden agenda is to focus UAB as medical school only, UAH as math and science only ... (board of trustees) presidents have pushed this agenda ... Deep pockets of trustees allow them to buy whatever they want."

Who was the author of this message? No less than a former member of the University of Alabama System Board of Trustees responding to my queries concerning Ray Watts and the imminent termination of football (and bowling, and rifle, as it turned out) at UAB. This source is the ultimate insider, who refuses to go public out of deep fear of retaliation."

More at the link.

Suffice to say, the BoT at UA are evil, greedy bastards who apparently have run the UofA into the ground by amassing 900+ million dollars of debt.

 

[javadoc]

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/uab_football_first_step_in_hid.html

"At 10:20 am on Dec. 1, 2014, I received a message about what was really going on at UAB. It said, in part:"The hidden agenda is to focus UAB as medical school only, UAH as math and science only ... (board of trustees) presidents have pushed this agenda ... Deep pockets of trustees allow them to buy whatever they want."

Who was the author of this message? No less than a former member of the University of Alabama System Board of Trustees responding to my queries concerning Ray Watts and the imminent termination of football (and bowling, and rifle, as it turned out) at UAB. This source is the ultimate insider, who refuses to go public out of deep fear of retaliation."

More at the link.

Suffice to say, the BoT at UA are evil, greedy bastards who apparently have run the UofA into the ground by amassing 900+ million dollars of debt.

"The last 15 years have witnessed repeated attacks on both the Huntsville and Birmingham campuses by the board and its confederates."

I see what he did there.

Sad story. My grandfather graduated from Bama in the 30's (while Bear Bryant was there, he reminded me many times), so they've always been a favorite non-Syracuse team for me. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

[SU68]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it seems to me that the only problem is that the System BOT is not being open with their goal if the OP quote is accurate. A state the size of Alabama does not need a university system where each school duplicates the other schools. It's a more efficient use of tax dollars to have specialized campuses. Health care does this all the time -- hospitals that specialize in cardiology, cancer, etc.

Your real issue is whether multiple campuses should have BCS football teams, FCS teams, or no teams. If the Alabama taxpayers are willing to fund the programs, why not?

 

[tipphill]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it seems to me that the only problem is that the System BOT is not being open with their goal if the OP quote is accurate. A state the size of Alabama does not need a university system where each school duplicates the other schools. It's a more efficient use of tax dollars to have specialized campuses. Health care does this all the time -- hospitals that specialize in cardiology, cancer, etc.

Your real issue is whether multiple campuses should have BCS football teams, FCS teams, or no teams. If the Alabama taxpayers are willing to fund the programs, why not?

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/uab_football_first_step_in_hid.html

"At 10:20 am on Dec. 1, 2014, I received a message about what was really going on at UAB. It said, in part:"The hidden agenda is to focus UAB as medical school only, UAH as math and science only ... (board of trustees) presidents have pushed this agenda ... Deep pockets of trustees allow them to buy whatever they want."

Who was the author of this message? No less than a former member of the University of Alabama System Board of Trustees responding to my queries concerning Ray Watts and the imminent termination of football (and bowling, and rifle, as it turned out) at UAB. This source is the ultimate insider, who refuses to go public out of deep fear of retaliation."

More at the link.

Suffice to say, the BoT at UA are evil, greedy bastards who apparently have run the UofA into the ground by amassing 900+ million dollars of debt.

i believe that it is a positive for the state of alabama to focus, at long last, on something other than the football. maybe they will make uab a excellent medical school, which is sorely needed in a poor state. by the way, we don't have a med school and should look at taking over upstate in cooperation/consorstium with suny. after all we gave it to them in the first place. we need that at su, as well as a premier law school.

 

[bcubs9497]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it seems to me that the only problem is that the System BOT is not being open with their goal if the OP quote is accurate. A state the size of Alabama does not need a university system where each school duplicates the other schools. It's a more efficient use of tax dollars to have specialized campuses. Health care does this all the time -- hospitals that specialize in cardiology, cancer, etc.

Your real issue is whether multiple campuses should have BCS football teams, FCS teams, or no teams. If the Alabama taxpayers are willing to fund the programs, why not?

My issue is that the BoT at UofA are attempting to underhandedly screw a lot of undergrads at UAH and UAB because they seriously @!#$%#$ up and put the university a billion dollars in the hole. The BoT apparently didn't even use that billion bucks to develop/improve academic facilities, but rather "extra-curricular" things (Saban's salary? new multi-million dollar weight room?).

From the article: "Instead of research, the big bucks have been poured into metastatic growth for growth's sake, centered on extracurriculars, not academics."

 

[reedny]

Did anyone expect anything different? lol And to the assertion that Public post-secondary education should be "specialized" by campus, really? So, someone in one part of the state can't study math ... because that's taught only at a campus on the other side of the state? I can see limiting expensive graduate school programs (med/law schools) but core curriculum subjects at the undergraduate level should be available state-wide. This is the least the AB public school system can do to correct significant educational deficits in the state -- not make the problem worse by narrowing undergraduate curricula because the big-wigs blew too much money on FB.

 

[TexanMark]

My issue is that the BoT at UofA are attempting to underhandedly screw a lot of undergrads at UAH and UAB because they seriously @!#$%#$ up and put the university a billion dollars in the hole. The BoT apparently didn't even use that billion bucks to develop/improve academic facilities, but rather "extra-curricular" things (Saban's salary? new multi-million dollar weight room?).

From the article: "Instead of research, the big bucks have been poured into metastatic growth for growth's sake, centered on extracurriculars, not academics."

I've read some articles about the BoT...just makes you go "Wow at how good ole boy corrupt they are".

 

[TexanMark]

Did anyone expect anything different? lol And to the assertion that Public post-secondary education should be "specialized" by campus, really? So, someone in one part of the state can't study math ... because that's taught only at a campus on the other side of the state? I can see limiting expensive graduate school programs (med/law schools) but core curriculum subjects at the undergraduate level should be available state-wide. This is the least the AB public school system can do to correct significant educational deficits in the state -- not make the problem worse by narrowing undergraduate curricula because the big-wigs blew too much money on FB.

I really think the SUNYs should downsize. Close 1-3 campuses.

 

[reedny]

I really think the SUNYs should downsize. Close 1-3 campuses.

SUNY costs (including closures and expenditures) represent a series of contentious issues that have been broiling for 20+ years:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/10/o...g-means-loss-of-quality-education-867595.html

The SUNY system has only one school in the top 20 nationally (public):
http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/news/2015/02/12/2015-rankings-of-u-s-public-colleges.html

As costs rise (and cuts are made to offset them), quality deteriorates, and post-graduate student debt increases:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/n...-plan-to-cut-college-graduates-debt.html?_r=0
http://www.legislativegazette.com/a...voice-funding-concerns-at-budget-hearing.html

You're a SUNY grad, and I'm sure have more insight than I do into some of the issues and waste.

 

[tipphill]

SUNY costs (including closures and expenditures) represent a series of contentious issues that have been broiling for 20+ years:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/10/o...g-means-loss-of-quality-education-867595.html

The SUNY system has only one school in the top 20 nationally (public):
http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/news/2015/02/12/2015-rankings-of-u-s-public-colleges.html

As costs rise (and cuts are made to offset them), quality deteriorates, and post-graduate student debt increases:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/n...-plan-to-cut-college-graduates-debt.html?_r=0
http://www.legislativegazette.com/a...voice-funding-concerns-at-budget-hearing.html

You're a SUNY grad, and I'm sure have more insight than I do into some of the issues and waste.

 

[tipphill]

occ is a excellent cc, better education than some of the 4yr campuses. suny is an excellent system, but needs to be creatively streamlined, alabama by the way has 2yr upper division campuses for graduation, which encompass the last two years of a 4yr degree.do we really need, in this age of online education, all the suny campuses we have? no---do not need the liberal arts --as 4 yr campus

 

[bcubs9497]

occ is a excellent cc, better education than some of the 4yr campuses. suny is an excellent system, but needs to be creatively streamlined, alabama by the way has 2yr upper division campuses for graduation, which encompass the last two years of a 4yr degree.do we really need, in this age of online education, all the suny campuses we have? no---do not need the liberal arts --as 4 yr campus

The only 2 year upper division campus in Alabama that I'm aware of is Athens State; I graduated from there back in 2K. Would like to know what others there are.

 

[TheCusian]

SUNY costs (including closures and expenditures) represent a series of contentious issues that have been broiling for 20+ years: http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/10/o...g-means-loss-of-quality-education-867595.html The SUNY system has only one school in the top 20 nationally (public): http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/news/2015/02/12/2015-rankings-of-u-s-public-colleges.html As costs rise (and cuts are made to offset them), quality deteriorates, and post-graduate student debt increases: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/n...-plan-to-cut-college-graduates-debt.html?_r=0 http://www.legislativegazette.com/a...voice-funding-concerns-at-budget-hearing.html You're a SUNY grad, and I'm sure have more insight than I do into some of the issues and waste.

My wife works her arse off for a SUNY school and I can tell you the pork is not found in her salary.

 

[reedny]

occ is a excellent cc, better education than some of the 4yr campuses. suny is an excellent system, but needs to be creatively streamlined, alabama by the way has 2yr upper division campuses for graduation, which encompass the last two years of a 4yr degree.do we really need, in this age of online education, all the suny campuses we have? no---do not need the liberal arts --as 4 yr campus

A liberal arts degree (especially for those going on to graduate school) is the most well-rounded, and IMO the best quality education you can get. It's not for everyone .. some desire technical training, are not interested in graduate school, etc.. But no matter what your major is, there's obviously a quality difference between correspondence learning and the experience of being on-campus. So I'm not clear on what you're proposing .. turning the SUNY system into the "University of Phoenix"?

 

[Cheriehoop]

i believe that it is a positive for the state of alabama to focus, at long last, on something other than the football. maybe they will make uab a excellent medical school, which is sorely needed in a poor state. by the way, we don't have a med school and should look at taking over upstate in cooperation/consorstium with suny. after all we gave it to them in the first place. we need that at su, as well as a premier law school.

They might balk at losing the medical school unless we take the "losing money hand over fist" Upstate Hospital (which also bought the former Community General Hospital). The medical school may be the only part that's breaking even/making any money.

 

[tipphill]

They might balk at losing the medical school unless we take the "losing money hand over fist" Upstate Hospital (which also bought the former Community General Hospital). The medical school may be the only part that's breaking even/making any money.

just maybe su as a private may manage the med school (and upstate )significantly better. vanderbilt baylor duke rochester emory northwestern miami and several established others have done this. if su wants the next level they should consider this. everyone writes this off, as not attainable---i think not if we can get the politics and gov behind it, particularly with the graft and mismanagement by upstate. rutgers just took back the medical school into the university(i know they are a public)---in doing so it enhanced their big 10 opportunity, to say nothing of the fertile area they sit in re opportunity for research---which by the way we have none. we talk a lot but we are really just a above average liberal arts school with 3 premier programs and a mediocre law school. yes, this is just my humble opinion---su has never been visionary in terms of academic growth. they have been content to remain in a state of "dynamic status quo"---which means stagnation in real life. why i wrote all this,i don't really know. i guess just hoping for the future

 

[tipphill]

A liberal arts degree (especially for those going on to graduate school) is the most well-rounded, and IMO the best quality education you can get. It's not for everyone .. some desire technical training, are not interested in graduate school, etc.. But no matter what your major is, there's obviously a quality difference between correspondence learning and the experience of being on-campus. So I'm not clear on what you're proposing .. turning the SUNY system into the "University of Phoenix"?

i will leave the debate of the value of a liberal arts degree for another time. classroom time is valuable for everyone, but mostly, kids right out of high school. for the older "learner"their classroom time is ojt, and relating to "professors" who actually practice. most online classes require some face to face time. in this era, is a traditional 4yr on campus course of study in the liberal arts necessary???no it is not. now, if you broaden the definition to on campus living experiences, which most hs grads want--maybe--but even excellent community colleges, such as occ, have dorms.the days of isolation to campus as the only viable RELEVANT vehicle for education have become part of the by gone era. that is why most major universities offer online courses, degrees including su, and schools like the u of phoenix and many others thrive. my vision for suny would be to enhance an already excellent cc system, scale back some of the 4yr campuses to 2yr upper division. and establish premier core of schools of excellence at SELECTED campuses statewide. put the money saved into scholarships, research, medicine law architecture the arts--whatever. liberal arts is a great generic education,by american standards, is this really how the rest of the world functions????

 

[reedny]

i will leave the debate of the value of a liberal arts degree for another time. classroom time is valuable for everyone, but mostly, kids right out of high school. for the older "learner"their classroom time is ojt, and relating to "professors" who actually practice. most online classes require some face to face time. in this era, is a traditional 4yr on campus course of study in the liberal arts necessary???no it is not. now, if you broaden the definition to on campus living experiences, which most hs grads want--maybe--but even excellent community colleges, such as occ, have dorms.the days of isolation to campus as the only viable RELEVANT vehicle for education have become part of the by gone era. that is why most major universities offer online courses, degrees including su, and schools like the u of phoenix and many others thrive. my vision for suny would be to enhance an already excellent cc system, scale back some of the 4yr campuses to 2yr upper division. and establish premier core of schools of excellence at SELECTED campuses statewide. put the money saved into scholarships, research, medicine law architecture the arts--whatever. liberal arts is a great generic education,by american standards, is this really how the rest of the world functions????

I think your point works only at the margins ... for the single mom or someone trying to work full time and get in some credits. And that's great. I applaud anyone who wants to learn, and in fact, many Universities now offer online courses for supplemental coursework, night school (U college), etc. This can be a flexible (sometimes the only) way for people to get a 2 year degree or finish credits towards a 4 year degree that are difficult to complete because of work/life commitments.

On the other hand, if you want to get a degree you can sell to an employer (or if you're headed to grad. school/working towards a professional degree), then a traditional degree is a safe bet. Maybe you wouldn't mind having your taxes done, or your surgery performed, by someone with a correspondence degree. But I would. And employers clearly agree. My understanding is that the statistics (employment, testing and graduate/professional admissions, to name a few) strikingly favor those with traditional college experiences while popular (and profitable), but often useless, online degrees wind up at the bottom of the pile.

60 minutes recent expose' of the 'for-profit' "college" industry -- much of it "online" (cheaper than brick and mortar) -- showed why a traditional approach is worth the investment.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/for-profit-college-costly-lesson-31-01-2005/

 

[tipphill]

I think your point works only at the margins ... for the single mom or someone trying to work full time and get in some credits. And that's great. I applaud anyone who wants to learn, and in fact, many Universities now offer online courses for supplemental coursework, night school (U college), etc. This can be a flexible (sometimes the only) way for people to get a 2 year degree or finish credits towards a 4 year degree that are difficult to complete because of work/life commitments.

On the other hand, if you want to get a degree you can sell to an employer (or if you're headed to grad. school/working towards a professional degree), then a traditional degree is a safe bet. Maybe you wouldn't mind having your taxes done, or your surgery performed, by someone with a correspondence degree. But I would. And employers clearly agree. My understanding is that the statistics (employment, testing and graduate/professional admissions, to name a few) strikingly favor those with traditional college experiences while popular (and profitable), but often useless, online degrees wind up at the bottom of the pile.

60 minutes recent expose' of the 'for-profit' "college" industry -- much of it "online" (cheaper than brick and mortar) -- showed why a traditional approach is worth the investment.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/for-profit-college-costly-lesson-31-01-2005/

i do not disagree when talking about professional careers, i am referring to the undergrad liberal arts degree

 

[reedny]

i do not disagree when talking about professional careers, i am referring to the undergrad liberal arts degree

There have been several articles in the New Yorker in the last few years on this subject --- very interesting. The authors (usually professors) review different definitions of/approaches to learning: narrower approaches like vocational training versus broader approaches like liberal arts (among others), Ivies versus others, etc. Here are some examples:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/06/06/live-and-learn-louis-menand
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/06/07/learning-by-degrees

They cite various statistics (test scores, professional development, employment success, salaries, etc...). One of the tests is the CLA (college learning assessment). Surprising perhaps to some (you?), the most successful students (measured by CLA) were liberal arts majors. They were, overall, better learners and tended to attend more selective schools. I agree with you that some (many?) students, particularly those who view education as "job training", do not want, or cannot afford, to "learn how to learn" at the undergraduate level ... with esoteric courses like Religion, Near East Thought, English literature, creative writing, philosophy, physics, chemistry/biology/geology (for non-science majors), etc. But if you have the time, the money and the interest, it's well worth the effort.

Here's an excerpt:

The most interesting finding is that students majoring in liberal-arts fields—sciences, social sciences, and arts and humanities—do better on the C.L.A., and show greater improvement, than students majoring in non-liberal-arts fields such as business, education and social work, communications, engineering and computer science, and health. There are a number of explanations. Liberal-arts students are more likely to take courses with substantial amounts of reading and writing; they are more likely to attend selective colleges, and institutional selectivity correlates positively with learning; and they are better prepared academically for college, which makes them more likely to improve. The students who score the lowest and improve the least are the business majors.

 

[AZOrange]

i do not disagree when talking about professional careers, i am referring to the undergrad liberal arts degree

I don't think all liberal arts educations are equal. I certainly went to a liberal arts school, but got my degree in economics, not liberal arts.

 

[tipphill]

There have been several articles in the New Yorker in the last few years on this subject --- very interesting. The authors (usually professors) review different definitions of/approaches to learning: narrower approaches like vocational training versus broader approaches like liberal arts (among others), Ivies versus others, etc. Here are some examples:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/06/06/live-and-learn-louis-menand
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/06/07/learning-by-degrees

They cite various statistics (test scores, professional development, employment success, salaries, etc...). One of the tests is the CLA (college learning assessment). Surprising perhaps to some (you?), the most successful students (measured by CLA) were liberal arts majors. They were, overall, better learners and tended to attend more selective schools. I agree with you that some (many?) students, particularly those who view education as "job training", do not want, or cannot afford, to "learn how to learn" at the undergraduate level ... with esoteric courses like English literature, creative writing, philosophy, physics, chemistry/biology/geology (for non-science majors), etc. But if you have the time, the money and the interest, it's well worth the effort.

Here's an excerpt:

The most interesting finding is that students majoring in liberal-arts fields—sciences, social sciences, and arts and humanities—do better on the C.L.A., and show greater improvement, than students majoring in non-liberal-arts fields such as business, education and social work, communications, engineering and computer science, and health. There are a number of explanations. Liberal-arts students are more likely to take courses with substantial amounts of reading and writing; they are more likely to attend selective colleges, and institutional selectivity correlates positively with learning; and they are better prepared academically for college, which makes them more likely to improve. The students who score the lowest and improve the least are the business majors.

 

[tipphill]

do you really think that employers care about what professors think? other than the ivy league, and a advanced degree, that is a bogus assumption. no one is interested in the undergrad stuff, except those that had an intership, and that does matter. 4yrs is just the beginning for most----liberal arts is what it is---well rounded ----however the fields that you mention,other than law,medicine,research etc that may apply. by the way, i have a msw,lcsw (before i retired)and i dare say i will argue civil war, ww1 korea and ww2 history with whom ever you chose

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Off course, if they attended these schools, they were likely highly intelligent and from affluent families, who can provide guidance, connections, and debt free graduation.

 

[tipphill]

Off course, if they attended these schools, they were likely highly intelligent and from affluent families, who can provide guidance, connections, and debt free graduation.

my daughter grad. from upenn, yes she is highly intelligent, athletic and has a jd from su and ma from maxwell.---am i affluent -no-but middle income with no connections, did penn give me money--no--work study--did she go debt free---yes---as we paid it, like many others , i had the 3 jobs to prove it. my son equally as bright, is in CAR SALES, went to a cc. did not want to go on to 4yr. both kids make high 6 figures---guess who makes the higher 6 figs? i am blessed that they are both successful, if you have personality and get along with people, and have innate intelligence , the ba/bs in sociology/psychology and other liberal arts --does not mean much. it remains a very good entry tool. it makes it easier, but as usual in the real world, if you can't perform and cannot get along it is worthless.