Out of state kids are easier than in state an example

[Statesman1]

This is a perfect example of "invisible state line" recruiting. 2-4 Upstate kids a year. Once you include downstate, you might as well throw in CT, eastern PA, MASS, etc. We don't need NYS kids that don't fit. We need kids within 4-6 hours that can compete in the ACC and fit Babers system. Are their enough within NYS that fit that criteria? Fit over geography.

So now we're dividing recruiting into upstate v downstate? Smells like rationalizing losing recruits that aren't a "fit" when they're "fits" to our P5 peers. I'd argue the players we did successfully recruit that "fit" the system methodology resulted in a new coaching staff this year. We need better players, and there are certainly enough to be had within the 4-6 hour radius (I agree with you on that point) to get us a respectable level of football.

 

[TheCusian]

So now we're dividing recruiting into upstate v downstate? Smells like rationalizing losing recruits that aren't a "fit" when they're "fits" to our P5 peers. I'd argue the players we did successfully recruit that "fit" the system methodology resulted in a new coaching staff this year. We need better players, and there are certainly enough to be had within the 4-6 hour radius (I agree with you on that point) to get us a respectable level of football.

The point is that downstate v upstate matters about as much as NY or PA or CT. We need to lose the state distinction.

BC takes tons of guys we never were interested in. And Addazzio has done slightly better than Shafer. No thanks. Fit > Geography

I trust Babers. I think there are enough to be had in the 4-6 hour radius, but I don't think it's rational to believe we'll get enough of them. Even if we were on par with Ohio St and Penn St - we are not batting 100 vs them. We need the guys who fit in that radius and guys who fit outside of that radius.

I personally like when they are local guys - I root a bit extra for them. But so much that I want to field a team that is less talented than what we could have otherwise.

Best fits. That's it.

 

[Sudano]

The point is that downstate v upstate matters about as much as NY or PA or CT. We need to lose the state distinction.

BC takes tons of guys we never were interested in. And Addazzio has done slightly better than Shafer. No thanks. Fit > Geography

I trust Babers. I think there are enough to be had in the 4-6 hour radius, but I don't think it's rational to believe we'll get enough of them. Even if we were on par with Ohio St and Penn St - we are not batting 100 vs them. We need the guys who fit in that radius and guys who fit outside of that radius.

I personally like when they are local guys - I root a bit extra for them. But so much that I want to field a team that is less talented than what we could have otherwise.

Best fits. That's it.

Sorry, but that's how our country historically defines geography and cultural identity. While I agree with you that we also have to do better job recruiting our geographic proximity in all the Northeast, I can't understand why you are so vehement to exclude NY but include CT and PA. You're trying to parse minutiae of upstate NY vs downstate. To be good again we will end up recruiting better players close to home and that includes NY. No one said to settle for poor NY players but to be successful recruiting top players from NY and NE states.

 

[TheCusian]

Sorry, but that's how our country historically defines geography and cultural identity. While I agree with you that we also have to do better job recruiting our geographic proximity in all the Northeast, I can't understand why you are so vehement to exclude NY but include CT and PA. You're trying to parse minutiae of upstate NY vs downstate. To be good again we will end up recruiting better players close to home and that includes NY. No one said to settle for poor NY players but to be successful recruiting top players from NY and NE states.

1. I agree that we tend to identify each other by State. That's meaningless for this argument.

2. The original argument said we needed the 8-10 of the best players from NY to be relevant again. I'm saying drop the NY and just draw a big circle 4-6 hours out from Syracuse. That argument makes sense now.

3. Downstate vs Upstate. Why was I making a distinction? Maybe the 3rd best recruit in NY is a LB is from Brooklyn. Maybe the 10th best kid in PA is a LB from Scranton. And the 10th best recruit in NY is a LB from Rochester. The recruiting rankings gave the first two 4* and the kid from Rochester got his third after we sniffed around. The kid who is furthest away is the kid from Brooklyn. Next Scranton, then Rochester. The staff goes hard after PA kid because of fit. The board freaks out because we don't have any NY kids and we missed out on the 3rd best NY kid. Meanwhile we grabbed the best fit kid who lives 3 hours away.

4. If there are kids within a 3 hour radius that are a good fit and are ACC caliber players - we should try to get them. The end. But if prioritize geography over fit and talent - we're doing it wrong.

 

[kcsu]

This staff, the last staff, and Doug all have made a solid effort in NY. The fact is that Syracuse is going to focus on the 6 hour radius, the direct easy flight areas and our key out of state areas based on connections. It doesnt matter if we keep NYS kids or if we load up on kids from PA or Detroit or Fl. What matters is that we recruit kids that can play in this system at this level and help us win. Landing a NY kid who sits the bench for 5 years does nothing for the program.

 

[JackBauer44]

Agree with you, kcsu. I just received my first commitment from an Indiana tennis player since 2008. The locations of my commits from last season and this season? Ohio, Kentucky, Texas, Russia, Ukraine, Mississippi, Illinois, India, and Australia. There's a huge amount of talent in the state of Indiana as well, but a lot of the top prospects just have no interest in staying home.

 

[kcsu]

Agree with you, kcsu. I just received my first commitment from an Indiana tennis player since 2008. The locations of my commits from last season and this season? Ohio, Kentucky, Texas, Russia, Ukraine, Mississippi, Illinois, India, and Australia. There's a huge amount of talent in the state of Indiana as well, but a lot of the top prospects just have no interest in staying home.

Things have changed since we were kids. Social media and the internet has shrunk the world let alone the United States. Some kids want to stay close to home and those kids we have a shot at. Others want to get away and try something new. It actually works in our favor since we can benefit from the increased exposure of the ACC. The entire from Maine to Florida is open, Add in IL, Ohio, Michigan and we have a huge and fertile territory to recruit. We only need 20 or so kids a year so with good scouting, good coaching, great exposure, great facilities, a university that is known around the world, and now an admin and coaching staff that is ahead of the curve things are looking up. Do i want to see NYS kids on the team you bet but only if they are going to contribute.

 

[Statesman1]

1. I agree that we tend to identify each other by State. That's meaningless for this argument.

2. The original argument said we needed the 8-10 of the best players from NY to be relevant again. I'm saying drop the NY and just draw a big circle 4-6 hours out from Syracuse. That argument makes sense now.

3. Downstate vs Upstate. Why was I making a distinction? Maybe the 3rd best recruit in NY is a LB is from Brooklyn. Maybe the 10th best kid in PA is a LB from Scranton. And the 10th best recruit in NY is a LB from Rochester. The recruiting rankings gave the first two 4* and the kid from Rochester got his third after we sniffed around. The kid who is furthest away is the kid from Brooklyn. Next Scranton, then Rochester. The staff goes hard after PA kid because of fit. The board freaks out because we don't have any NY kids and we missed out on the 3rd best NY kid. Meanwhile we grabbed the best fit kid who lives 3 hours away.

4. If there are kids within a 3 hour radius that are a good fit and are ACC caliber players - we should try to get them. The end. But if prioritize geography over fit and talent - we're doing it wrong.

I agree with what you are saying around prioritizing fit and talent over NYS residency but I'm not sure I follow your examples in your point #3. My only point around NYS recruiting is that of the talent produced that is P5 caliber, we don't retain enough of it-- We certainly haven't gotten any of the top end talent since the glory days. Our overall talent level is sub par despite the fact that the state of NY does put out anywhere from 8-15 P5 prospects each year. Is it reasonable to suggest we target and successfully recruit 8-10 of them? Probably not but it is a symptom of how poor our recruiting has been that we have not been able to retain even a modest portion of the in state talent we do produce. Even a cursory glance at our 2-deep over the last 15 years shows we certainly have room at the inn for better athletes, so I have a hard time turning my nose up at guys that wind up playing against us somewhere else. I totally agree that we should do a better job in the 4-6 hr radius of PA, NJ, CT, MA and elsewhere and I have hope (not faith) that Babers & Co will eventually make inroads.

 

[Statesman1]

Name one year during our hey days that we kept the top NYC kids home

I think OrangeEyes had a post where he counted 37 or 38 players from the '87 team were from NYS- not sure how many were from the city but we had several from Long Island. I bet at least half that roster was from NY, NJ, or CT-

 

[kcsu]

I think OrangeEyes had a post where he counted 37 or 38 players from the '87 team were from NYS- not sure how many were from the city but we had several from Long Island. I bet at least half that roster was from NY, NJ, or CT-

dont think so

 

[TheCusian]

I agree with what you are saying around prioritizing fit and talent over NYS residency but I'm not sure I follow your examples in your point #3. My only point around NYS recruiting is that of the talent produced that is P5 caliber, we don't retain enough of it-- We certainly haven't gotten any of the top end talent since the glory days. Our overall talent level is sub par despite the fact that the state of NY does put out anywhere from 8-15 P5 prospects each year. Is it reasonable to suggest we target and successfully recruit 8-10 of them? Probably not but it is a symptom of how poor our recruiting has been that we have not been able to retain even a modest portion of the in state talent we do produce. Even a cursory glance at our 2-deep over the last 15 years shows we certainly have room at the inn for better athletes, so I have a hard time turning my nose up at guys that wind up playing against us somewhere else. I totally agree that we should do a better job in the 4-6 hr radius of PA, NJ, CT, MA and elsewhere and I have hope (not faith) that Babers & Co will eventually make inroads.

Best fit first. I agree they we've been lacking players overall and that we've missed on some NY kids.

My point in #3 was that people (not you) get caught up in where they are from state-wise when the 100th best FL player is on par with the 8th in NY. So when I hear "we need more NY kids" I think they must have played or coached in NY - because that's the only way that makes sense. We need better talent every year, year over year that fits our system regardless of where they are from.

Recruiting locally should in theory be easier. But I'm not sure that been true for us since Gerg.

So if the effort you put in is equal (meaning natural recruiting grounds are not gaining you an advantage) - find the best kids no matter what.

 

[Statesman1]

dont think so

My math is a little fuzzy but 38 +12+ 9= 59 players, but whatever:

From Orangeyes:
It's for sure back in 1987 you could!

The 1987 team was our most recent great football team, it went 11-0-1, finished ranked 4th in the nation after starting the season unranked.

The 2003 SU basketball team also started out their National Championship season unranked. However, because of the playoff system for basketball those Orangemen were able to prove that they were the best in the ring of competition.

Here's a look at that 1987 roster starting off with players from the Empire State.

Not even sure if sure if they ranked players back then?

I counted 38 New York State Players on that roster

Here they are, some with links to interesting articles or tidbits

Kevin Bauer Holbrook, NY

Byron Abraham Utica, NY

Blake Bednarz Blasdell, NY

Mike Bernard Williamstown, NY

Alban Brown Laurelton, NY

Rob Burnett Coram, NY

John Carey Canandaigua, NY

Roger Carges Rochester, NY

Andrew Dees Babylon, NY

John Dominic Rome, NY

Terrance Dougherty Owego, NY

Robert Drummond Dewitt, NY

Henry Flournoy Liverpool, NY

Keith Friberg Staten Island NY

John Garrett New Hyde Park, NY

Toby Given Albany, NY

Deval Glover Troy, NY

Ted Gregory East Islip NY

Mike Hayes West Islip, NY

Christopher Ingram Syracuse NY

Daryl Johnston Youngstown, NY

Albert Jones ILB Ess e x, NY

Todd Kasmer Baldwinsville, NY

Brian LaBaron Corning, NY

Pat Kelly Webster, NY

Duane Kinnon Brooklyn, NY

Don McPherson West Hemstead, NY

Tony Montemorra Peru, NY

Rob Moore Hemstead, NY

John Nilsen Statan Island, NY

Pat O' Rourke Apalachin, NY

Nate Reis Kingston, NY

Billy Scharr Canandaigua, NY

Warren Stith Hempstead, NY

Claus Stuhlweissenburg Tappan, NY

Mark Swinson Bay Shore, NY

Tim Vesling Pittsford NY

Chris Weisenburger Flushing, NY

Two coaches were from New York too

Jeff Stoutland NY, NY grad assistant

Bob Casullo Little Falls NY

The rest of the roster, 57 more players in all, includes many from Connecticut (12), New Jersey(9), Pennsylvania(14), Mass(5), New Hampshire(1)

Those first two areas we had always been strong in until the emergence of RU & Uconn.

That's 79 players from the Northeast and one from Canada!!

Sidney Armour Red Bank, NJ

Kevin Barker Hilton Nead, SC

Chris Barnes Middletown, NJ

Eric Baumgardner Willow Station, PA

David Bavaro Danvers Mass

Dan Bokel Erie, PA

Dan Bucey Mentor, OH

Jeff Buskirk Whitehall, Pa.

Dan Capachine E. Bridgewater, MA

Chris Chavers Ambridge, PA

Frank Conover Freehold, NJ

Pat Davis Trenton, NJ

Fred DeRiggi Scranton, PA

Dan Erickson Mechanicsburg, PA

Brian Fetherolf Whitehall, PA

John Flannery Pottsville Pa

Paul Frase Barrington, NH

Bobby Fuller Clearwater FL

Cooper Gardiner West Haven, CT

Jim Gaughan Scranton PA

Kevin D Greene Philadelphia, Pa

Kevin L Greene Simi Valley Ca

Alain Greer Van Nuys, CA

Ken Hawkins Massillon, OH

Rush Hodgin Pittsburgh, PA

David Holmes Burlington, New Jersey

Rodney Johnson Midland, Tx

Darrell Jones Somerset, NJ

Tommy Kane Montreal, Canada

Duane Lapiniski Wilkes-Barre, PA

Jeff Mangram Brunswick, Ga

Tony Martin Lauderhill, Fl

Mike McCarter Paxson, MA

Gary McCummings Denver, CO

Mark McDonald Klein, Tx

Veryl Miller Ft Lauderdale, FL

Michael Owens Carlisle Pa

Chris Parks Walnut, CA

Markus Paul Kissimmee, Fl

Mike Pergolizzi Little Ferry, NJ

William Pennyfeather Perth Amboy , NJ

Todd Philcox Norwalk, Ct

Tony Rielio Bricktown, NJ

Tim Sandqust South Windsor, CT

David Sapienza Peabody, Mass

Turnell Sims Cleveland, OH

KC Sirowich Seymour, CT

Jeff Stanizewski Perth Amboy , NJ

Craig Stoeppel Danbury, CT

Tony Taylor Miami, FL

Robert Thompson Southington, CT

Greg Walker Williamsport, Pa

Derek Ward Waterbury , CT

*James Wentworth Woburn, MA

Sean Whiteman Clearwater, Fl Article

Terrence Wooden Hartford, CT

Chris Zyck Hartford, CT

*DL Jim Wentworth famous for stepping on all east tackle Craig Stoeppel's leg & putting him out for the season in the final preseason scrimmage for the 1988 season

19 guys on that roster were drafted into the NFL

12 more were signed as free agents

5 eventually played in Super Bowls

2 became pro bowlers

Last edited: Jan 8, 2014

 

[wfschrec]

My math is a little fuzzy but 38 +12+ 9= 59 players, but whatever:

From Orangeyes:
It's for sure back in 1987 you could!

The 1987 team was our most recent great football team, it went 11-0-1, finished ranked 4th in the nation after starting the season unranked.

The 2003 SU basketball team also started out their National Championship season unranked. However, because of the playoff system for basketball those Orangemen were able to prove that they were the best in the ring of competition.

Here's a look at that 1987 roster starting off with players from the Empire State.

Not even sure if sure if they ranked players back then?

I counted 38 New York State Players on that roster

Here they are, some with links to interesting articles or tidbits

Kevin Bauer Holbrook, NY

Byron Abraham Utica, NY

Blake Bednarz Blasdell, NY

Mike Bernard Williamstown, NY

Alban Brown Laurelton, NY

Rob Burnett Coram, NY

John Carey Canandaigua, NY

Roger Carges Rochester, NY

Andrew Dees Babylon, NY

John Dominic Rome, NY

Terrance Dougherty Owego, NY

Robert Drummond Dewitt, NY

Henry Flournoy Liverpool, NY

Keith Friberg Staten Island NY

John Garrett New Hyde Park, NY

Toby Given Albany, NY

Deval Glover Troy, NY

Ted Gregory East Islip NY

Mike Hayes West Islip, NY

Christopher Ingram Syracuse NY

Daryl Johnston Youngstown, NY

Albert Jones ILB Ess e x, NY

Todd Kasmer Baldwinsville, NY

Brian LaBaron Corning, NY

Pat Kelly Webster, NY

Duane Kinnon Brooklyn, NY

Don McPherson West Hemstead, NY

Tony Montemorra Peru, NY

Rob Moore Hemstead, NY

John Nilsen Statan Island, NY

Pat O' Rourke Apalachin, NY

Nate Reis Kingston, NY

Billy Scharr Canandaigua, NY

Warren Stith Hempstead, NY

Claus Stuhlweissenburg Tappan, NY

Mark Swinson Bay Shore, NY

Tim Vesling Pittsford NY

Chris Weisenburger Flushing, NY

Two coaches were from New York too

Jeff Stoutland NY, NY grad assistant

Bob Casullo Little Falls NY

The rest of the roster, 57 more players in all, includes many from Connecticut (12), New Jersey(9), Pennsylvania(14), Mass(5), New Hampshire(1)

Those first two areas we had always been strong in until the emergence of RU & Uconn.

That's 79 players from the Northeast and one from Canada!!

Sidney Armour Red Bank, NJ

Kevin Barker Hilton Nead, SC

Chris Barnes Middletown, NJ

Eric Baumgardner Willow Station, PA

David Bavaro Danvers Mass

Dan Bokel Erie, PA

Dan Bucey Mentor, OH

Jeff Buskirk Whitehall, Pa.

Dan Capachine E. Bridgewater, MA

Chris Chavers Ambridge, PA

Frank Conover Freehold, NJ

Pat Davis Trenton, NJ

Fred DeRiggi Scranton, PA

Dan Erickson Mechanicsburg, PA

Brian Fetherolf Whitehall, PA

John Flannery Pottsville Pa

Paul Frase Barrington, NH

Bobby Fuller Clearwater FL

Cooper Gardiner West Haven, CT

Jim Gaughan Scranton PA

Kevin D Greene Philadelphia, Pa

Kevin L Greene Simi Valley Ca

Alain Greer Van Nuys, CA

Ken Hawkins Massillon, OH

Rush Hodgin Pittsburgh, PA

David Holmes Burlington, New Jersey

Rodney Johnson Midland, Tx

Darrell Jones Somerset, NJ

Tommy Kane Montreal, Canada

Duane Lapiniski Wilkes-Barre, PA

Jeff Mangram Brunswick, Ga

Tony Martin Lauderhill, Fl

Mike McCarter Paxson, MA

Gary McCummings Denver, CO

Mark McDonald Klein, Tx

Veryl Miller Ft Lauderdale, FL

Michael Owens Carlisle Pa

Chris Parks Walnut, CA

Markus Paul Kissimmee, Fl

Mike Pergolizzi Little Ferry, NJ

William Pennyfeather Perth Amboy , NJ

Todd Philcox Norwalk, Ct

Tony Rielio Bricktown, NJ

Tim Sandqust South Windsor, CT

David Sapienza Peabody, Mass

Turnell Sims Cleveland, OH

KC Sirowich Seymour, CT

Jeff Stanizewski Perth Amboy , NJ

Craig Stoeppel Danbury, CT

Tony Taylor Miami, FL

Robert Thompson Southington, CT

Greg Walker Williamsport, Pa

Derek Ward Waterbury , CT

*James Wentworth Woburn, MA

Sean Whiteman Clearwater, Fl Article

Terrence Wooden Hartford, CT

Chris Zyck Hartford, CT

*DL Jim Wentworth famous for stepping on all east tackle Craig Stoeppel's leg & putting him out for the season in the final preseason scrimmage for the 1988 season

19 guys on that roster were drafted into the NFL

12 more were signed as free agents

5 eventually played in Super Bowls

2 became pro bowlers

Last edited: Jan 8, 2014

You do realize the recruiting landscape has changed right? And where talent ... elite talent lives has also changed. Lets conduct an experiment ... from 2012 to 2015 (4 recruiting classes) lets count how many kids signed with a P5 program not named Syracuse:

2012 had 9 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford)
2012 had Norton, McFarlane, Broyld, Morgan, Palmer and Cornelius ... Barnwell and Barrett (who was never a P5 talent) never made it onto the field, sign at Syracuse
2013 had 8 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford)
2013 had Scissum and Wayne Williams (who washed out) sign at Syracuse
2014 had 13 sign with P5s not named Syracuse
2014 had Naes Howard (never played a down at Syracuse) sign at Syracuse
2015 had 7 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford, also can't count Wheatley since he is a 16 recruit)
2015 had Fredricks, Perkins and Sheppard (who is no longer on campus) signed with Syracuse

so that means SU missed out on 38 kids that signed with other D1 schools over 4 years ... and if you look at the composition of those 38 its even more telling, the group includes:
1 K
1 P
Ogundeko is no longer in college
We all know the Chad Kelly saga
Is Laray Smith even playing football anymore? How many of these guys are even seeing the field let alone making an impact?

How many of these kids are making an impact at the P5 level? Jaron Jones, Chad Kelly, Augustus Edwards, Curtis Samuels and Rouse ... how many others? At some point we need to realize NYS does not put out near the quality or quantity of a lot of the other states ... of the guys that signed with Syracuse only 7 have started games.

 

[Statesman1]

You do realize the recruiting landscape has changed right? And where talent ... elite talent lives has also changed. Lets conduct an experiment ... from 2012 to 2015 (4 recruiting classes) lets count how many kids signed with a P5 program not named Syracuse:

2012 had 9 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford)
2012 had Norton, McFarlane, Broyld, Morgan, Palmer and Cornelius ... Barnwell and Barrett (who was never a P5 talent) never made it onto the field, sign at Syracuse
2013 had 8 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford)
2013 had Scissum and Wayne Williams (who washed out) sign at Syracuse
2014 had 13 sign with P5s not named Syracuse
2014 had Naes Howard (never played a down at Syracuse) sign at Syracuse
2015 had 7 sign with P5s not named Syracuse (you can't count out of state kids at Milford, also can't count Wheatley since he is a 16 recruit)
2015 had Fredricks, Perkins and Sheppard (who is no longer on campus) signed with Syracuse

so that means SU missed out on 38 kids that signed with other D1 schools over 4 years ... and if you look at the composition of those 38 its even more telling, the group includes:
1 K
1 P
Ogundeko is no longer in college
We all know the Chad Kelly saga
Is Laray Smith even playing football anymore? How many of these guys are even seeing the field let alone making an impact?

How many of these kids are making an impact at the P5 level? Jaron Jones, Chad Kelly, Augustus Edwards, Curtis Samuels and Rouse ... how many others? At some point we need to realize NYS does not put out near the quality or quantity of a lot of the other states ... of the guys that signed with Syracuse only 7 have started games.

Of course recruiting changes, no one is suggesting it isn't. I posted the run down of the '87 roster because KCSU couldn't recall a decent SU team with many NY players- turns out even a cursory investigation shows our best one in 50 years had plenty. Furthermore, no one has suggested NY puts out the volume or high end talent of many other states, like NJ or PA. However, to suggest that NY is devoid of talent is absurd. On the contrary it should be - along with NJ, PA, CT- be the foundation of each recruiting class. I'd gladly have taken Jones, Kelly, Edwards, Samuels, Rouse and added to the list Officer and Zembec and Wheatley. We'd be a better team had we gotten them. It's not like we've been building a stellar roster and racking up W's with the 2nd tier leftovers we've been getting from those other states with more P5 talent for the last 15 years- perhaps if we did a little better job closer to home where in theory our proximity & familiarity should give us a leg up- in addition to getting players on a higher shelf on the cupboard out of state we'd all be happy. I'm not sure why you think this is a controversial opinion.

 

[Sudano]

... of the guys that signed with Syracuse only 7 have started games.

I think you're unwittingly proving our point. We have not recruited well in NY and the Northeast and with those lower level NY recruiting our record is 49-85 in 11 yrs. Just not good enough.

 

[TheCusian]

I think you're unwittingly proving our point. We have not recruited well in NY and the Northeast and with those lower level NY recruiting our record is 49-85 in 11 yrs. Just not good enough.

How would you go about getting the top NY kids who've gone to Ohio State, ND, Penn State, FSU, etc?

There's no doubt that we've missed out on top end NY talent (again, I think invisible state-line recruiting is a dumb way of looking at it) - but getting those kids isn't a reality right now or in the last 11 years. The next tier of recruits is where we've lived. We've had to look for kids we can get where we can get them.

I think we need a program building coach with a unique offense + time + wins.

 

[Sudano]

How would you go about getting the top NY kids who've gone to Ohio State, ND, Penn State, FSU, etc?

There's no doubt that we've missed out on top end NY talent (again, I think invisible state-line recruiting is a dumb way of looking at it) - but getting those kids isn't a reality right now or in the last 11 years. The next tier of recruits is where we've lived. We've had to look for kids we can get where we can get them.

I think we need a program building coach with a unique offense + time + wins.

Is it the chicken or the egg. Do we have to be good to win over those recruits or do we need those recruits to win. I don't care. Either way, just do it.

 

[TheCusian]

Is it the chicken or the egg. Do we have to be good to win over those recruits or do we need those recruits to win. I don't care. Either way, just do it.

Point is - we need to win with the kids we can get until we're able to recruit up a level. We need to punch above our weight class.

Marrone was the closest we've had over the last 3 coaches. Until now, IMO. But it will take time.

Year one, first full class is a very poor time to criticize the recruiting strategy as it relates to geography.

 

[Statesman1]

Point is - we need to win with the kids we can get until we're able to recruit up a level. We need to punch above our weight class.

Marrone was the closest we've had over the last 3 coaches. Until now, IMO. But it will take time.

Year one, first full class is a very poor time to criticize the recruiting strategy as it relates to geography.

This will be a very telling season on many levels. Babers is the first established HC we've hired in decades, and is more of a known commodity than any of our prior coaches going back to Mac. His timetable should be much shorter than any of the unknowns we've installed the last three go-rounds based on his head coaching experience alone. If he can generate some buzz and excitement this season on the field hopefully that translates into recruiting and it starts to snowball and we can pick up some ballers. We're in the right league, we've upgraded facilities so we're not a joke in that department, and hopefully we've hired the right guy. I'm tired of sucking and settling for getting excited at the prospect of a 6 win season. Time to right this ship- we've suffered enough!

 

[RF2044]

This is actually a really interesting debate, with good points raised on both sides.

I agree with Cusian that borders don't matter--get the best players you can, regardless of where they come from, and that the last 11+ years have made it difficult to recruit top flight talent, even in state.

But I also agree with others who state that we need to do a better job in our home turf. I doubt we'll ever be able to contend with the Ohio States, Penn States, Notre Dames, etc. when it comes to siphoning the truly elite players. We're just not at that level. But we'll know we've arrived when we start to land a few of those in-state blue chippers -- which we haven't done in a long time.

It's tiresome. I believe that Dino Babers was the best possible hire, that his style will help us win with impressive style quickly, and that in a couple of years we're going to be seen more as a destination locale for football recruits. Once that happens, I expect better results in our home state. Nothing worse than seeing kids head to Miami, Wisconsin, etc. let alone the truly elite teams mentioned above.

 

[TheCusian]

This is actually a really interesting debate, with good points raised on both sides. I agree with Cusian that borders don't matter--get the best players you can, regardless of where they come from, and that the last 11+ years have made it difficult to recruit top flight talent, even in state. But I also agree with others who state that we need to do a better job in our home turf. I doubt we'll ever be able to contend with the Ohio States, Penn States, Notre Dames, etc. when it comes to siphoning the truly elite players. We're just not at that level. But we'll know we've arrived when we start to land a few of those in-state blue chippers -- which we haven't done in a long time. It's tiresome. I believe that Dino Babers was the best possible hire, that his style will help us win with impressive style quickly, and that in a couple of years we're going to be seen more as a destination locale for football recruits. Once that happens, I expect better results in our home state. Nothing worse than seeing kids head to Miami, Wisconsin, etc. let alone the truly elite teams mentioned above.

Thanks. It has been a good discussion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be better locally. That's a given. I'm saying we need a plan to get there. I feel like some posters think we're not trying hard enough and I don't think that's the issue. It's not an effort thing. It's a perception issue.

And I agree about Babers. Just needs time. It's going to be fun to watch him win over fans, HS coaches, and NE players over the next 2-3 years.

 

[RF2044]

Thanks. It has been a good discussion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be better locally. That's a given. I'm saying we need a plan to get there. I feel like some posters think we're not trying hard enough and I don't think that's the issue. It's not an effort thing. It's a perception issue.

And I agree about Babers. Just needs time. It's going to be fun to watch him win over fans, HS coaches, and NE players over the next 2-3 years.

Landing blue chip talent when you're perceived to be a "down" program reminds me a little of that old Steve Martin bit about how to be a millionaire and not ever, ever pay taxes.

Step 1 -- get a million dollars...

We have to break through at some point, and we will. It would be much easier recruiting in-state if we were the flagship institution, or if the entire state rooted for us a la Nebraska or Ohio State. That isn't the case, though. A guy like Coan would have been a nice "get" to help start that buzz, but we'll get there with some big time in-state recruit with Babers at the helm--no doubt in my mind.

 

[wfschrec]

Of course recruiting changes, no one is suggesting it isn't. I posted the run down of the '87 roster because KCSU couldn't recall a decent SU team with many NY players- turns out even a cursory investigation shows our best one in 50 years had plenty. Furthermore, no one has suggested NY puts out the volume or high end talent of many other states, like NJ or PA. However, to suggest that NY is devoid of talent is absurd. On the contrary it should be - along with NJ, PA, CT- be the foundation of each recruiting class. I'd gladly have taken Jones, Kelly, Edwards, Samuels, Rouse and added to the list Officer and Zembec and Wheatley. We'd be a better team had we gotten them. It's not like we've been building a stellar roster and racking up W's with the 2nd tier leftovers we've been getting from those other states with more P5 talent for the last 15 years- perhaps if we did a little better job closer to home where in theory our proximity & familiarity should give us a leg up- in addition to getting players on a higher shelf on the cupboard out of state we'd all be happy. I'm not sure why you think this is a controversial opinion.

BECAUSE IT IS A WASTE OF TIME INVESTING HUGE RECRUITING EFFORTS IN A STATE THAT MIGHT YIELD 5 SERVICEABLE D1 TALENTS PER YEAR!

 

[wfschrec]

I think you're unwittingly proving our point. We have not recruited well in NY and the Northeast and with those lower level NY recruiting our record is 49-85 in 11 yrs. Just not good enough.

No I'm not ... the only good NYS recruits either don't do anything on the field or get arrested for one reason or another ... there aren't enough viable 4 year contributors to make investing large amounts of time in NYS worthwhile ... what I stated above proves my point ... not rocket science.

 

[tep624]

No I'm not ... the only good NYS recruits either don't do anything on the field or get arrested for one reason or another ... there aren't enough viable 4 year contributors to make investing large amounts of time in NYS worthwhile ... what I stated above proves my point ... not rocket science.

I don't think NYS should be recruited any differently than any other state. You develop strong relationships with the top 5 feeder programs in the state or so and then recruit on a case by case basis as you evaluate talent. I think carving up the state into small portions like the staff has done makes a lot of sense here.