Out of state kids are easier than in state an example

[wfschrec]

I don't think NYS should be recruited any differently than any other state. You develop strong relationships with the top 5 feeder programs in the state or so and then recruit on a case by case basis as you evaluate talent. I think carving up the state into small portions like the staff has done makes a lot of sense here.

You aren't in sales are you? I consider this analogy ... I am looking to sell something ... a product if you will. Would I best served walking into a plaza with 10 target customers or 1 target customer on a daily basis ... that is the difference between recruiting a NY "feeder school" vs a STA in FL ... so no you don't recruit each state the same ... common sense dictates otherwise.

 

[tep624]

You aren't in sales are you? I consider this analogy ... I am looking to sell something ... a product if you will. Would I best served walking into a plaza with 10 target customers or 1 target customer on a daily basis ... that is the difference between recruiting a NY "feeder school" vs a STA in FL ... so no you don't recruit each state the same ... common sense dictates otherwise.

You think that by Strategy I mean time or resources spent. I don't. What I mean is that the basic approach is the same. You identify schools of importance in your recruiting regions and you focus more heavily on those schools than others. That may be 3 schools in NY and 30 in Florida. You may spend more time at some than others because of the number of prospects they have in a given year, but the basic strategy is the same - put your focus where you have the best opportunity to get results.

I don't think NYS should be put up on a pedestal just because they are "NY" kids or Syracuse is in "NY". That hasn't really mattered in 15-20 years, partly because of the downturn of the program and the top recruits in the state thumbing their noses at it, and partly because just the number of available prospects in NYS is down - and I'm not sure if there is a demographic reason that is driving that or not.

 

[wfschrec]

You think that by Strategy I mean time or resources spent. I don't. What I mean is that the basic approach is the same. You identify schools of importance in your recruiting regions and you focus more heavily on those schools than others. That may be 3 schools in NY and 30 in Florida. You may spend more time at some than others because of the number of prospects they have in a given year, but the basic strategy is the same - put your focus where you have the best opportunity to get results.

I don't think NYS should be put up on a pedestal just because they are "NY" kids or Syracuse is in "NY". That hasn't really mattered in 15-20 years, partly because of the downturn of the program and the top recruits in the state thumbing their noses at it, and partly because just the number of available prospects in NYS is down - and I'm not sure if there is a demographic reason that is driving that or not.

But my point is why assign any resources to a NY school when you might see one P5 kid when they can be better spent at another school in another state with a lot more available talent.

 

[rrlbees]

6 hour radius

 

[SUfanNC]

But my point is why assign any resources to a NY school when you might see one P5 kid when they can be better spent at another school in another state with a lot more available talent.

Premise is right. It is more about time allocated to NYS kids. I'm sure we pay attention to top talent and do not ignore our state but I'm sure we spend more time in areas where the talent is plentiful. You dont spend a lot of time where you know the fish aren't. You spend more time where you know fishing is good.

 

[wfschrec]

6 hour radius

Yeah if you are in Ohio, Florida, Alabama, Texas, Georgia or California ... if you draw that 6 hour radius there is enough talent there to put together a quality roster the problem is you don't get the lion's share of it and that is a fact ... have to think bigger. Lets just say there are 400 P5 quality kids in a six hour radius ... if you can only land 1% of them then that is a problem. A 6 hour radius means you dip into PA, dip into MA and get CN along with VT parts of NJ and parts of MD. Yes you even touch parts of OH. But you aren't winning a large number of battles for high level kids in a majority of those states ... going up against PSU, OSU, ND and Michigan in those parts is hard enough. Then if you have an elite talent (i.e. a 5 star) the SEC shows up ... we are even struggling to get MD kids to select us over Maryland ... at what point do you just cast a wide net to feeder programs across the country. With social media and everything else that recruiters use this whole 6 hour thing isn't as prevalent as it used to be.

 

[JrodCuse]

It seems like both sides are essentially arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. We need to recruit in our 6 hour radius, but we also need to recruit in further away hotbeds (Florida, Georgia, NC, Ohio, Michigan etc). It doesn't have to be one or the other. Seems like this is a cyclical argument that never ends.

 

[wfschrec]

It seems like both sides are essentially arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. We need to recruit in our 6 hour radius, but we also need to recruit in further away hotbeds (Florida, Georgia, NC, Ohio, Michigan etc). It doesn't have to be one or the other. Seems like this is a cyclical argument that never ends.

No what i'm saying is that if you have a relationship at a school like STA where there are 10 P5 caliber guys don't waste your time parading into a school with maybe the ability to deliver 1 P5 guy a year ... go all in on STA.

 

[JrodCuse]

Agreed, but I'm of the view that you don't need to focus on one school, one region, or one philosophy. Instead of picking A, B, or C, pick D) All of the Above.

 

[Statesman1]

BECAUSE IT IS A WASTE OF TIME INVESTING HUGE RECRUITING EFFORTS IN A STATE THAT MIGHT YIELD 5 SERVICEABLE D1 TALENTS PER YEAR!

The facts are in direct opposition to your opinion - but keep beating that dead horse.

 

[wfschrec]

The facts are in direct opposition to your opinion - but keep beating that dead horse.

Again read my previous posts ... but don't worry we'll just keep parading around Rochester, Buffalo and NYC in hopes of landing someone who either will snub us ... won't contribute or get kicked out of school within two years ... but whatever you need to tell yourself its ok thats fine with me.

 

[Statesman1]

Again read my previous posts ... but don't worry we'll just keep parading around Rochester, Buffalo and NYC in hopes of landing someone who either will snub us ... won't contribute or get kicked out of school within two years ... but whatever you need to tell yourself its ok thats fine with me.

Good point- out of state kids rarely if ever snub us or get kicked out of school--You appear incapable of separating your fandom from facts at hand. I fully agree with the premise that NY does not produce the quality and depth of football talent relative to our population as other states. However, in the context of trying to build a competitive SU football team there is talent in this state that can help us, indeed it is probably required unless we magically are able to pry away better out of state talent than we've gotten in the last 15 years. The state produces anywhere from 8-15 or so P5 players every year, and just because Ishaq didn't see the field at ND and Collier didn't value his schoolwork doesn't mean we give up on the entire state as you suggest. Only an idiot would do that-many of our best players in program history would not have been recruited were that the prevailing wisdom. If we could retain half of the top end talent in NY (4-8 players a year) then that would translate to anywhere of 16-30 or so players on the roster could potentially be NY'ers. That would potentially represent the foundation of our squad in any given year- a foundation which has gone on to play elsewhere lately. I am not suggesting we should recruit any player for the sake that they are NY kids, but those players that are worthy. College football, if anything, is a numbers game with high attrition due to injury, academics, and knuckleheadedness and we have been sorely lacking in our overall talent for too long, in part because of our inability to keep our best in-state talent home.

 

[Cuse_Albs]

I really don't consider recruits from NYC and LI, New York State products. The people from down there associate themselves with the City or Tri-State area, something we have had little presence in in recent years. Recruits from the city do not see Syracuse as the hometown team anymore. I completely agree that all the upstate D1 talent should be made priority, but the downstaters just do not have the same affinity for Syracuse...as much as FADDG wanted us to be NYC's College Team. Some of my best friends are NYC and LI guys and I can tell you 100% that they see themselves as completely separate entity than the rest of NYS. IMO the only way we get back into the immediate Tri-State area on a regular basis is if we become a perennial top-25 team again.

 

[TheCusian]

I really don't consider recruits from NYC and LI, New York State products. The people from down there associate themselves with the City or Tri-State area, something we have had little presence in in recent years. Recruits from the city do not see Syracuse as the hometown team anymore. I completely agree that all the upstate D1 talent should be made priority, but the downstaters just do not have the same affinity for Syracuse...as much as FADDG wanted us to be NYC's College Team. Some of my best friends are NYC and LI guys and I can tell you 100% that they see themselves as completely separate entity than the rest of NYS. IMO the only way we get back into the immediate Tri-State area on a regular basis is if we become a perennial top-25 team again.

Exactly. State lines are dumb things to include in recruiting conversations. How much P5 talent does upstate NY produce - or think 3 hour radius.

You simply cannot focus a ton on that radius and hope to field an ACC team. BC is in the same boat.

I'd focus on getting the best talent and fit on the east coast I can get. That 3 hour radius will take care of itself when we start to win 8-10 games a season .

 

[wfschrec]

Good point- out of state kids rarely if ever snub us or get kicked out of school--You appear incapable of separating your fandom from facts at hand. I fully agree with the premise that NY does not produce the quality and depth of football talent relative to our population as other states. However, in the context of trying to build a competitive SU football team there is talent in this state that can help us, indeed it is probably required unless we magically are able to pry away better out of state talent than we've gotten in the last 15 years. The state produces anywhere from 8-15 or so P5 players every year, and just because Ishaq didn't see the field at ND and Collier didn't value his schoolwork doesn't mean we give up on the entire state as you suggest. Only an idiot would do that-many of our best players in program history would not have been recruited were that the prevailing wisdom. If we could retain half of the top end talent in NY (4-8 players a year) then that would translate to anywhere of 16-30 or so players on the roster could potentially be NY'ers. That would potentially represent the foundation of our squad in any given year- a foundation which has gone on to play elsewhere lately. I am not suggesting we should recruit any player for the sake that they are NY kids, but those players that are worthy. College football, if anything, is a numbers game with high attrition due to injury, academics, and knuckleheadedness and we have been sorely lacking in our overall talent for too long, in part because of our inability to keep our best in-state talent home.

Give me a list of 20 players that have been solid to above average contributors from NYS high schools from 2011 to 2014 that meet the following criteria:

a.) Are still with the school they signed with (read kicked out or transferred to a lesser program)
b.) Aren't originally from another state that prepped at a place like Milford or
c.) That made it to school on time and were not academic casualties or liabilities.

 

[Statesman1]

Exactly. State lines are dumb things to include in recruiting conversations. How much P5 talent does upstate NY produce - or think 3 hour radius.

You simply cannot focus a ton on that radius and hope to field an ACC team. BC is in the same boat.

I'd focus on getting the best talent and fit on the east coast I can get. That 3 hour radius will take care of itself when we start to win 8-10 games a season .

I agree with that sentiment but isnt this a thread about NYS recruiting? For practical purposes no one has suggested fielding a NY- only team let alone an upstate NY centric team. Despite what state anyone's buddies from Long Island think they're actually from we need to do a better job recruiting our own backyard-and the region- but hey I'm an agnostic as long as we get better players. There was a time when guys like Rob Moore actually made there way to the Hill, we need to get back to that level again- and soon

 

[Statesman1]

Give me a list of 20 players that have been solid to above average contributors from NYS high schools from 2011 to 2014 that meet the following criteria:

a.) Are still with the school they signed with (read kicked out or transferred to a lesser program)
b.) Aren't originally from another state that prepped at a place like Milford or
c.) That made it to school on time and were not academic casualties or liabilities.

I'll get right on that after you can define what a "solid" or an "above average" contributor is. And why 2011-2014? 2014 recruits have just completed their freshman year- if they haven't seen the field should we write them off already?And are we talking academic washouts at easy admission schools with little to no academic rigors like Clemson? Or were you thinking more like UNC that pretend and cook the books? Also, if a player like Ishaq who couldn't get on the field bc of the premier talent in front of him does that mean we shouldn't recruit a guy like that? He was every board members wet dream when we were after him but according to your logic would be a waste of time. Also, what about injuries? How should we account for that in your methodology? Nah, it's just easier to write off the entire state- the other way requires too much thinking and objectivity.

 

[wfschrec]

I'll get right on that after you can define what a "solid" or an "above average" contributor is. And why 2011-2014? 2014 recruits have just completed their freshman year- if they haven't seen the field should we write them off already?And are we talking academic washouts at easy admission schools with little to no academic rigors like Clemson? Or were you thinking more like UNC that pretend and cook the books? Also, if a player like Ishaq who couldn't get on the field bc of the premier talent in front of him does that mean we shouldn't recruit a guy like that? He was every board members wet dream when we were after him but according to your logic would be a waste of time. Also, what about injuries? How should we account for that in your methodology? Nah, it's just easier to write off the entire state- the other way requires too much thinking and objectivity.

Ok go back to a different 4 year block ... whatever floats your boat. Actually the Ishaq situation is not unique ... did he or did he not get in trouble? Thought so .. and you're right I can't assume he wouldn't have been good here just like YOU can't assume he would have been a star here either ... but since you insist NYS is drumming out so much suitable talent I'll just wait for your response.

 

[Statesman1]

Ok go back to a different 4 year block ... whatever floats your boat. Actually the Ishaq situation is not unique ... did he or did he not get in trouble? Thought so .. and you're right I can't assume he wouldn't have been good here just like YOU can't assume he would have been a star here either ... but since you insist NYS is drumming out so much suitable talent I'll just wait for your response.

You mean Ishaq isn't the first high school star to pick a football factory only to sit for four years behind better talent? No way!! Actually I make very few assumptions about how high school players will pan out in college, but I would have liked to see Ishaq give it a try here instead of ND- and you are a liar if you say you wouldn't have done cartwheels if he picked SU instead- which is why I pointed out that recruiting is largely a numbers game- a game we have been losing for the better part of two decades. And for the fourth time I have never said NYS is drumming out talent (relative to our population) but that we do drum out some talent- talent that is worth recruiting and not letting slip away to our peers. This is evidenced by the #'s of P5 players receiving full rides every year 8-15 on average. There is a certain sense of proportionality you seem to lack in grasping this concept.

 

[Sudano]

Give me a list of 20 players that have been solid to above average contributors from NYS high schools from 2011 to 2014 that meet the following criteria:

a.) Are still with the school they signed with (read kicked out or transferred to a lesser program)
b.) Aren't originally from another state that prepped at a place like Milford or
c.) That made it to school on time and were not academic casualties or liabilities.

You make the list.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree with that sentiment but isnt this a thread about NYS recruiting? For practical purposes no one has suggested fielding a NY- only team let alone an upstate NY centric team. Despite what state anyone's buddies from Long Island think they're actually from we need to do a better job recruiting our own backyard-and the region- but hey I'm an agnostic as long as we get better players. There was a time when guys like Rob Moore actually made there way to the Hill, we need to get back to that level again- and soon

Yeah - my point is that the very idea of in-state vs out-of-state recruiting is kind of silly. What's the difference between a kid from Scranton PA or Long Island?

Best available talent that fits the system > getting a certain % of in-state talent

I'm pro-better talent, and I get the theory we should have a better chance the closer they are to campus - but I don't think we should be beholden to history or state pride.

 

[wfschrec]

You make the list.

I already gave one earlier .. I'm asking someone to tell me about all this wonderful NYS talent and haven't seen it yet.

 

[wfschrec]

You mean Ishaq isn't the first high school star to pick a football factory only to sit for four years behind better talent? No way!! Actually I make very few assumptions about how high school players will pan out in college, but I would have liked to see Ishaq give it a try here instead of ND- and you are a liar if you say you wouldn't have done cartwheels if he picked SU instead- which is why I pointed out that recruiting is largely a numbers game- a game we have been losing for the better part of two decades. And for the fourth time I have never said NYS is drumming out talent (relative to our population) but that we do drum out some talent- talent that is worth recruiting and not letting slip away to our peers. This is evidenced by the #'s of P5 players receiving full rides every year 8-15 on average. There is a certain sense of proportionality you seem to lack in grasping this concept.

I already gave you numbers but keep speaking in generalities and yes I would have done cartwheels just because of what it would have done for recruiting perception. But again he got himself in trouble and his lack of PT wasn't just because he sat behind Prince Schembo but lets keep spinning it ...

 

[Statesman1]

You aren't in sales are you? I consider this analogy ... I am looking to sell something ... a product if you will. Would I best served walking into a plaza with 10 target customers or 1 target customer on a daily basis ... that is the difference between recruiting a NY "feeder school" vs a STA in FL ... so no you don't recruit each state the same ... common sense dictates otherwise.

"I am looking to sell something...a product if you will"--- dude that line right there is hilarious all by itself. If that plaza is an hour and a half car ride to Aquinas or a six hour flight and an overnight followed by a couple hours in the car it all becomes a trade-off on what is the best allocation of precious recruiting time and $. No definitive right answer in recruiting here but again, seems to be a concept you fail to grasp in sales as well as recruiting.

 

[wfschrec]

"I am looking to sell something...a product if you will"--- dude that line right there is hilarious all by itself. If that plaza is an hour and a half car ride to Aquinas or a six hour flight and an overnight followed by a couple hours in the car it all becomes a trade-off on what is the best allocation of precious recruiting time and $. No definitive right answer in recruiting here but again, seems to be a concept you fail to grasp in sales as well as recruiting.

Not really ... still waiting for that list not clown responses ... notice you take the time to respond but still waiting for this list of megarecruits. And as someone who deploys IT systems in excess of $8 million dollars per I know how it works ... you go where the market yields ... give me the list or shut up already. Why am I not surprised you can't grasp big business, CFB is big business not vacuum cleaners.