people are too down on TD

orangepassion

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I wasn't referring to Devito or Lamson-Just the classes between them. The main point I believe people had is we've had problems closing on QB's for those 3 years. I do like Markiewicz and really like Lamson. Based on his film, think Morgan looks like a project.
Think in general, we've closed much better in the current recruiting class. Wish Dino made the coaching changes earlier.
There's some factual information in your post, but it seems like you're also applying revisionist history filtered through the 20/20 lens of hindsight with respect to Amie to validate your perspective.

Class one we landed DeVito, missed out on Coan. DeVito ended up being upgraded to a four star on some services, and wasn't a last second grab. Fans were thrilled about us landing our highest profile QB recruit in years.

Class two we lost out on some guys, including Amie -- who was a high priority target -- then flipped him back on signing day. He was a last second grab, but wasn't a settle -- he was a guy the staff was very, very high on. Two years in a row, we got a QB who was rated extremely highly on our board. And while some now look at Amie as a failure, and point to his subpar JUCO productivity, I would like to counter that with Dungey's perspective when Amie was a true frosh -- where he expressed the opinion that instead of DeVito being his successor, that Amie shouldn't be counted out. Too bad he was such a f*** up, because we'll never know for sure.

Class three we lost out on all of our top priorities, but pivoted to Summers late after Maryland's coaching change. He redshirted last year. I realize that a portion of the board has already written him off, but his story is still being written. I am certainly comfortable classifying him as a settle, by your criteria.

Last year, class four, we lost several of our top targets, tried to get creative and convince Villeaux to reclassify, and when that didn't happen we were out in the cold. Babers made staff changes, in quick order they identified an intriguing prospect without offers [Markewicz] and an athlete without offers [Morgan]. Jury's still out, but I understand why people view them both as settles. I personally think, based upon film, that Dillon could be a high caliber, multi-year starter, and not just a warm body.

This class, we missed out on a kid we liked who went to Duke, then got the guy rated #2 on our board. He wasn't a last minute grab.

So, in 3 out of 5 years, we got a guy we highly targeted, and in 2 out of 5 it wasn't last minute [with the third year being a guy we loved in Amie and managed to flip]. And that one of the other two years people are ringing alarm bells about wasn't nearly the disaster some are making it out to be.

Amie and DeVito are inexorably linked, IMO, with the fanbase's perception of what's happening. We went from euphoric after landing Tommy and then flipping Amie in a second class, to being greatly concerned after Amie decided to quit at the same time we were struggling to land a QB in class three. If DeVito were lighting it up, nobody would care -- we'd be looking down the road. But since he's struggling, that runway is gone. Some seem to view QB recruiting as a problem / hole that can never be rectified.

For those for whom the glass is half empty, they view the above as confirmatory evidence. For those who are more glass half full, DeVito is disappointing, there was a hiccup, but things are back on track. Too early to tell which side is right until we see what the young guys can do.

I certainly understand trepidation about Morgan / Markewicz, but I like what I'm hearing out of fall sessions with BOTH guys. And I strongly believe that based upon logic / theory / empirical evidence that Lamson is better than both of them. Again, all we need is one of them to pan out, and things look up quickly.

If none of them pan out, then Babers will be out of a job.
 

SUFan44

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There's some factual information in your post, but it seems like you're also applying revisionist history filtered through the 20/20 lens of hindsight with respect to Amie to validate your perspective.

Class one we landed DeVito, missed out on Coan. DeVito ended up being upgraded to a four star on some services, and wasn't a last second grab. Fans were thrilled about us landing our highest profile QB recruit in years.

Class two we lost out on some guys, including Amie -- who was a high priority target -- then flipped him back on signing day. He was a last second grab, but wasn't a settle -- he was a guy the staff was very, very high on. Two years in a row, we got a QB who was rated extremely highly on our board. And while some now look at Amie as a failure, and point to his subpar JUCO productivity, I would like to counter that with Dungey's perspective when Amie was a true frosh -- where he expressed the opinion that instead of DeVito being his successor, that Amie shouldn't be counted out. Too bad he was such a f*** up, because we'll never know for sure.

Class three we lost out on all of our top priorities, but pivoted to Summers late after Maryland's coaching change. He redshirted last year. I realize that a portion of the board has already written him off, but his story is still being written. I am certainly comfortable classifying him as a settle, by your criteria.

Last year, class four, we lost several of our top targets, tried to get creative and convince Villeaux to reclassify, and when that didn't happen we were out in the cold. Babers made staff changes, in quick order they identified an intriguing prospect without offers [Markewicz] and an athlete without offers [Morgan]. Jury's still out, but I understand why people view them both as settles. I personally think, based upon film, that Dillon could be a high caliber, multi-year starter, and not just a warm body.

This class, we missed out on a kid we liked who went to Duke, then got the guy rated #2 on our board. He wasn't a last minute grab.

So, in 3 out of 5 years, we got a guy we highly targeted, and in 2 out of 5 it wasn't last minute [with the third year being a guy we loved in Amie and managed to flip]. And that one of the other two years people are ringing alarm bells about wasn't nearly the disaster some are making it out to be.

Amie and DeVito are inexorably linked, IMO, with the fanbase's perception of what's happening. We went from euphoric after landing Tommy and then flipping Amie in a second class, to being greatly concerned after Amie decided to quit at the same time we were struggling to land a QB in class three. If DeVito were lighting it up, nobody would care -- we'd be looking down the road. But since he's struggling, that runway is gone. Some seem to view QB recruiting as a problem / hole that can never be rectified.

For those for whom the glass is half empty, they view the above as confirmatory evidence. For those who are more glass half full, DeVito is disappointing, there was a hiccup, but things are back on track. Too early to tell which side is right until we see what the young guys can do.

I certainly understand trepidation about Morgan / Markewicz, but I like what I'm hearing out of fall sessions with BOTH guys. And I strongly believe that based upon logic / theory / empirical evidence that Lamson is better than both of them. Again, all we need is one of them to pan out, and things look up quickly.

If none of them pan out, then Babers will be out of a job.
This is DeVito’s 4th year in the system, and there is not a viable option behind him ready to threaten his job.

Amie flamed out after a year. The last two years, we have gotten 3 QB’s who were reacheS at best. You can try to spin it however you want, but Summers was let go from his Maryland commitment and the other two are long shots.

Simply unacceptable to have nobody pushing DeVito for time at this point. And based on Culpepper getting the reps at the tail end of the game yesterday and Summers not traveling, there is a high probability there won’t be anyone next year either, his senior year. (And before you tell me this year doesn’t count as a year, I know. But I find it hard to believe a 5th year senior would stay for a 6th year.)
 

RF2044

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This is DeVito’s 4th year in the system, and there is not a viable option behind him ready to threaten his job.

Amie flamed out after a year. The last two years, we have gotten 3 QB’s who were reacheS at best. You can try to spin it however you want, but Summers was let go from his Maryland commitment and the other two are long shots.

Simply unacceptable to have nobody pushing DeVito for time at this point. And based on Culpepper getting the reps at the tail end of the game yesterday and Summers not traveling, there is a high probability there won’t be anyone next year either, his senior year. (And before you tell me this year doesn’t count as a year, I know. But I find it hard to believe a 5th year senior would stay for a 6th year.)
Not sure what imaginary point you're trying to make about Summers, considering I've never made any prediction about how his career will unfold and list him as a "settle" above. Pointing out that he redshirted last year and is only one game into his career isn't spin, they're facts.

None of this is spin, either:
  • 3 out of Babers's 5 recruiting classes, we've landed a QB at or close to the top of our recruiting board FACT
  • 2 years, we basically missed out on everybody we targeted FACT
  • Lamson is a good get / important get OPINION, HAPPY TO OWN IT
  • DeVito is looking like a flop, which is why the staff went after Fortin so hard last offseason OPINION / FACT
I completely agree that what we need is someone to push DeVito. Fortin could have been that guy. Amie SHOULD have been that guy. Eventually, I expect that more information will leak that puts his departure in proper context. Had he not been such a knucklehead and had his head screwed on straight, I believe that there is a strong possibility that DeVito might have been benched, replaced in the starting lineup, and / or a transfer candidate. That's not all just my opinion, either -- here's what Eric Dungey had to say about Amie:

Dungey likes all of the Orange’s other passers, though he told Nate Mink he’s highest on Chance Amie.
"I think the kid from Texas," Dungey said, "is going to be the best out of group. "He's got that mindset, too. He's not scared. He's got a cannon, fast. I think he's really going to take off."

Sucks that he shot himself in the foot -- and it's had a lasting impact. More opinion that I'm happy to own, but I believe that the two biggest issues contributing to the state of the state at QB have been DeVito demonstrating he doesn't have the chops, and Amie screwing himself and the program.

We need someone from the young group of QBs to be the real deal -- big time.


EDIT - I've got nothing bad to say about Culpepper, after what he went through health-wise. Kid is a bad ass in my book. Hope he returns to get grad school paid for, will wish him the best whatever he decides -- not counting on him coming back for another season when looking ahead at the depth chart, but who knows. Was happy to see him get some PT Saturday, just wish it was under better circumstances.
 
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CuseOnly

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unc has a stud QB who threw INTs. Ours didnt.. One big difference was that UNC oline did a better job of letting the 2-3 read get thrown too.

pre-snap isnt always about where to throw its about where to look. What i wish we were better at and one thing ED did at times was take what the D gives you and not always throw to where the play is designed. It hurt us too but also led to moving the ball and accepting that 4-5 yds passes are a good thing.

There was one clear example Sat where the slot was uncovered on 3rd down but we threw else where. I think sometimes we have to just take the first down when as a team we struggle to move the chains.. And others have said the same thing, maybe less of where we are supposed to go and more on just making positive plays.

But if teams like Clemson are gonna man you all over, and you cant get open there is no pre-post snap reads, you need to trust someone can win a man-o-man battle. And they want to take the 4 on then you have 6-7 in the box and thats hard to run against too.

lets see where we are after the GT game.
UNC QB also threw 25 completions, Tommy threw 13. Thats an average of 3.25 completions a quarter, not good.

Tommy's big issue is that he was bad last year with a bad OL and still looks like he regressed even with better OL play against UNC.

He is not seeing the field, he doesn't look off linebackers and safeties, he rarely gets to his 2nd or third read much less a 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Howell did all of those things as a true sophomore in his 14th game, where TD did not in his 4th year with SU.
 

CuseOnly

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Losing sucks but losing with 170 yards of offense is somehow worse.
OITNI = Orange Is The New Inadequate
OR Orange Is The New Inept

OITNS = Orange Is The New Slow
OR Orange Is The New Stunted
 

Redrum

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IMHO I don't think people are too down TD. I know it was just a couple of passes last game but they were IMO
no touch passes. Maybe not no touch but misplaced. The Queely pass especially. He has his man beat by
3,4,5 yards. the closest other defender is maybe a yard inside the left hash. Throw to the right shoulder with air
under it... TD. And I'll probably get murdered for this, but the Johnson touchdown miss also. Don't get me wrong. That's a catch 99% % of the time. But... the replay shows IMO that the defender is beaten by 4 or 5 yards. Just loft to the corner. Not enough touch on that pass. Went through his hands (and again should have been caught) but bounced probably 4,5 yards past after the miss.
I haven’t got into this because I’m not gonna waste my energy , call out players , coaches etc . But your all so far off base it’s ridiculous. But I’ll take this easy one TD has always been taught to place it on the outside shoulder only where his guy can get it . Yes he missed an easy one and trust me he isn’t sleeping still because of it . But Mr Monday morning Qb ( your a fan and entitled to it )
He released the ball way before he could see the separation to drive it in or put it in front .
, 21 of his 31 throws were quick throws so having or not having a pocket is moot . 3 were roll outs . That leaves 7 opportunities for him to step up in the pocket which there were none out of those 7 !
There were a few pockets and he did step up and scarambled for yards which is an improvement from last year when he couldn’t due to injury. Did he over target taj he’ll yeah but he doesn’t call or design plays . He made 2 mistakes the over throw and at the goal line he should’ve hit Hackette those are 2 TDs and it hurts .
13-31 is putrid but
31 throws
5 had to throw away
4 wr wrong routes
3 drops it happens
3 no call pass interference ( in completions)
That’s 15 incompletions
Look up the teams that win Saturday
Look up the rush yards not counting the Qb
Can’t get a rhythm without rush yards
Your fans it’s ok but eye test means nothing facts are facts in your defense I watched every play 5 times in slow motion I look for every little detail . When did he release the ball , why did he flush out to his right , how was the blocking , did he miss someone etc
This post is not a angry post , I’m not targeting any one poster . Just throwing some facts your way as best I can without naming names trust me I can point out much much more and some of you have . Like TD said minor adjustments by all can be the difference but the Pitt D might hinder that again . And the Johnson corner endzone pass your right easy Toss but again he has to get rid of it quick he put it in perfect spot assuming there would be good coverage the ball was out already . ( hmmm I wonder if that’s a good idea based on our deficiencies? I wonder if that’s been discussed with the OC ?)
 

HRE Otto IV

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I haven’t got into this because I’m not gonna waste my energy , call out players , coaches etc . But your all so far off base it’s ridiculous. But I’ll take this easy one TD has always been taught to place it on the outside shoulder only where his guy can get it . Yes he missed an easy one and trust me he isn’t sleeping still because of it . But Mr Monday morning Qb ( your a fan and entitled to it )
He released the ball way before he could see the separation to drive it in or put it in front .
, 21 of his 31 throws were quick throws so having or not having a pocket is moot . 3 were roll outs . That leaves 7 opportunities for him to step up in the pocket which there were none out of those 7 !
There were a few pockets and he did step up and scarambled for yards which is an improvement from last year when he couldn’t due to injury. Did he over target taj he’ll yeah but he doesn’t call or design plays . He made 2 mistakes the over throw and at the goal line he should’ve hit Hackette those are 2 TDs and it hurts .
13-31 is putrid but
31 throws
5 had to throw away
4 wr wrong routes
3 drops it happens
3 no call pass interference ( in completions)
That’s 15 incompletions
Look up the teams that win Saturday
Look up the rush yards not counting the Qb
Can’t get a rhythm without rush yards
Your fans it’s ok but eye test means nothing facts are facts in your defense I watched every play 5 times in slow motion I look for every little detail . When did he release the ball , why did he flush out to his right , how was the blocking , did he miss someone etc
This post is not a angry post , I’m not targeting any one poster . Just throwing some facts your way as best I can without naming names trust me I can point out much much more and some of you have . Like TD said minor adjustments by all can be the difference but the Pitt D might hinder that again . And the Johnson corner endzone pass your right easy Toss but again he has to get rid of it quick he put it in perfect spot assuming there would be good coverage the ball was out already . ( hmmm I wonder if that’s a good idea based on our deficiencies? I wonder if that’s been discussed with the OC ?)
90% of what you wrote is opinion that you try to state as fact. Thanks for trying though.
 

All4SU

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Wasn’t Culpepper a fairly high recruit? Wasn’t he the guy along with Amie who was going to compete?
 

HRE Otto IV

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Go ahead dispute what isn’t fact
I don't have the time to go through it all, and neither of us will change each other's opinion. The only fact is 13-31. Analyzing what caused that 13-31 is opinion explaining fact not fact in of itself.

No QB only makes two mistakes an entire game even when they have a great game, which Tommy did not have. We had about 45 called pass plays. Our execution rate of the actual intended play was about 10% which is god awful especially playing against a D which was mediocre last season. Some of our failure is bad luck. Some of it is on the officials. Some of it is on the OL. Some of it is on the skill players. Some of that is on the play call. Some of it is UNC executing on their end, they aren't tackling dummies out there after all. But there is plenty of blame to go on the QB as well.
 

SUFan44

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I don't have the time to go through it all, and neither of us will change each other's opinion. The only fact is 13-31. Analyzing what caused that 13-31 is opinion explaining fact not fact in of itself.

No QB only makes two mistakes an entire game even when they have a great game, which Tommy did not have. We had about 45 called pass plays. Our execution rate of the actual intended play was about 10% which is god awful especially playing against a D which was mediocre last season. Some of our failure is bad luck. Some of it is on the officials. Some of it is on the OL. Some of it is on the skill players. Some of that is on the play call. Some of it is UNC executing on their end, they aren't tackling dummies out there after all. But there is plenty of blame to go on the QB as well.
Not worth it.
 

dollarbill44

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[



So you are calling Devito a legit running QB? like a Dungey? Please

Devito is part of the problem as well, not much disputing it. he has been pretty bad so far as a starter
Devito actually is our best runner on offense. But, the entire offense is the problem, from QB to OC. Some groups are more critical to the success, but it takes 11 guys (alright, maybe in college you can get by with less if the OL is solid and you have one other great player) doing their individual jobs in sync to be functional as a unit.
TD needs to be a lot better throwing the football and making his reads.
The OL needs to be a lot better. Enough said there.
The RBs need to run harder and at least make an attempt at picking up a blitz.
The WRs need to run better routes and get more physical going for the ball. I'm still wondering how Taj let a perfectly thrown deep ball bounce off his helmet without getting a hand anywhere near it. The little contact from the db wasn't enough to prevent an attempt to catch it. Queeley needs to line up on the right sideline (kidding) so that TD will look at him.
The TEs need to just run seam routes every once in a while even if they're not supposed to just to tell everyone, "hey, they can't cover us! Throw us a damn pass").
 

RandomGuy

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I haven’t got into this because I’m not gonna waste my energy , call out players , coaches etc . But your all so far off base it’s ridiculous. But I’ll take this easy one TD has always been taught to place it on the outside shoulder only where his guy can get it . Yes he missed an easy one and trust me he isn’t sleeping still because of it . But Mr Monday morning Qb ( your a fan and entitled to it )
He released the ball way before he could see the separation to drive it in or put it in front .
, 21 of his 31 throws were quick throws so having or not having a pocket is moot . 3 were roll outs . That leaves 7 opportunities for him to step up in the pocket which there were none out of those 7 !
There were a few pockets and he did step up and scarambled for yards which is an improvement from last year when he couldn’t due to injury. Did he over target taj he’ll yeah but he doesn’t call or design plays . He made 2 mistakes the over throw and at the goal line he should’ve hit Hackette those are 2 TDs and it hurts .
13-31 is putrid but
31 throws
5 had to throw away
4 wr wrong routes
3 drops it happens
3 no call pass interference ( in completions)
That’s 15 incompletions
Look up the teams that win Saturday
Look up the rush yards not counting the Qb
Can’t get a rhythm without rush yards
Your fans it’s ok but eye test means nothing facts are facts in your defense I watched every play 5 times in slow motion I look for every little detail . When did he release the ball , why did he flush out to his right , how was the blocking , did he miss someone etc
This post is not a angry post , I’m not targeting any one poster . Just throwing some facts your way as best I can without naming names trust me I can point out much much more and some of you have . Like TD said minor adjustments by all can be the difference but the Pitt D might hinder that again . And the Johnson corner endzone pass your right easy Toss but again he has to get rid of it quick he put it in perfect spot assuming there would be good coverage the ball was out already . ( hmmm I wonder if that’s a good idea based on our deficiencies? I wonder if that’s been discussed with the OC ?)
I re-watched the offense many times, as well. It was frustrating live. Unlike early last year, what i saw was fixable.
 

RF2044

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I re-watched the offense many times, as well. It was frustrating live. Unlike early last year, what i saw was fixable.
Tend to agree -- most issues seemed personnel / depth / miscue related. That's the lime wedge to the tequila shot that Saturday's performance was.

But to your point, that makes some of those problems fixable, versus systemic.
 

TheCusian

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Tend to agree -- most issues seemed personnel / depth / miscue related. That's the lime wedge to the tequila shot that Saturday's performance was.

But to your point, that makes some of those problems fixable, versus systemic.
Yeah, I think that it felt so similar to last year is the problem. Time will tell - but I tend to think they'll figure something out
 

HRE Otto IV

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Yeah, I think that it felt so similar to last year is the problem. Time will tell - but I tend to think they'll figure something out
Mistakes can be turned into a good thing as they offer a learning experience, especially for young players. Making the same mistakes over and over with upperclassmen though is very concerning.

The season just started so there is plenty of time for growth. But that first game showed that not a whole lot of growth came from last year. We can not afford for this year to be the same. 2020 needs to be a prep for the future. We need to be moving forward. 200 yards of O (or 300 if we fixed our major missed plays) isn’t moving in the right direction.
 

Redrum

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I don't have the time to go through it all, and neither of us will change each other's opinion. The only fact is 13-31. Analyzing what caused that 13-31 is opinion explaining fact not fact in of itself.

No QB only makes two mistakes an entire game even when they have a great game, which Tommy did not have. We had about 45 called pass plays. Our execution rate of the actual intended play was about 10% which is god awful especially playing against a D which was mediocre last season. Some of our failure is bad luck. Some of it is on the officials. Some of it is on the OL. Some of it is on the skill players. Some of that is on the play call. Some of it is UNC executing on their end, they aren't tackling dummies out there after all. But there is plenty of blame to go on the QB as well.
Well this is a blame the QB thread so go ahead and pointed out
 

TheCusian

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Mistakes can be turned into a good thing as they offer a learning experience, especially for young players. Making the same mistakes over and over with upperclassmen though is very concerning.

The season just started so there is plenty of time for growth. But that first game showed that not a whole lot of growth came from last year. We can not afford for this year to be the same. 2020 needs to be a prep for the future. We need to be moving forward. 200 yards of O (or 300 if we fixed our major missed plays) isn’t moving in the right direction.
I'd chalk some of the struggles up to COVID killing spring ball. To be fair - it may be that UNC's early offensive struggles were the same thing - they just started out with a good offense from 2019.
 
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RMH44

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This is DeVito’s 4th year in the system, and there is not a viable option behind him ready to threaten his job.

Amie flamed out after a year. The last two years, we have gotten 3 QB’s who were reacheS at best. You can try to spin it however you want, but Summers was let go from his Maryland commitment and the other two are long shots.

Simply unacceptable to have nobody pushing DeVito for time at this point. And based on Culpepper getting the reps at the tail end of the game yesterday and Summers not traveling, there is a high probability there won’t be anyone next year either, his senior year. (And before you tell me this year doesn’t count as a year, I know. But I find it hard to believe a 5th year senior would stay for a 6th year.)
IMO, if TD doesn't turn around his season, there is a very good chance he enters the transfer portal.
 

SUFan44

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IMO, if TD doesn't turn around his season, there is a very good chance he enters the transfer portal.
And in your opinion, would this be his decision based on his unhappiness with the program, or the program's unhappiness with him?
 

RF2044

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If that does happen it would probably be best for both parties, IMO
Certainly would make sense -- but we then need somebody who is more than a warm body to step in.

I hope circumstances support Lamson enrolling for Spring.
 

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