people are too down on TD

[721Comstock]

how many plays by design have the QB make the 2nd read on the back side? Some plays have the QB look off and then come back but thats not a read, that a play design. TD does have an issue I think it not trusting the 2nd read in time.. ED was the opposite. He came off the first read too soon and went with the 2nd read way more than the coaches wanted. It led to completions but missed a ton of big plays.

Dungey missed a LOT of potentially huge gainers by either locking onto "his guy", or as you said, looking away from a read and not giving it the time it needed to open up.

You'd see him hoist a 50/50 ball when there was another receiver literally WIDE OPEN, with nobody between them and the endzone.

He'd also be quick to call his own #, rather than wait the extra second to let the receivers get open.
Word was that did not endear him to them, because who wants to bust their ass to get open, only to see the QB has tucked it and is running again?

Obviously he made a lot more positive things happen than negative, but that was more along the lines of:
"He's a baller!" (-Dabo Swinney), rather than "he's a great QB who makes all the right reads".

Since TDV isn't likely to morph into a 'baller' at this stage, we need him to learn to see and make the reads.

 

[CousCuse]

Dungey missed a LOT of potentially huge gainers by either locking onto "his guy", or as you said, looking away from a read and not giving it the time it needed to open up.

You'd see him hoist a 50/50 ball when there was another receiver literally WIDE OPEN, with nobody between them and the endzone.

He'd also be quick to call his own #, rather than wait the extra second to let the receivers get open.
Word was that did not endear him to them, because who wants to bust their ass to get open, only to see the QB has tucked it and is running again?

Obviously he made a lot more positive things happen than negative, but that was more along the lines of:
"He's a baller!" (-Dabo Swinney), rather than "he's a great QB who makes all the right reads".

Since TDV isn't likely to morph into a 'baller' at this stage, we need him to learn to see and make the reads.

Dungey didn't have much of a running game to rely on either.

 

[RMH44]

Respectfully, I think you are rhetorically leaning on the unknown to reach the conclusion things aren't as bad as they seem. I think that is whistling past the graveyard.

To be sure - you are 100% correct that we don't know what we have with the young guys. It is entirely feasible that a quality QB emerges from that group, as any football fan can point to examples of under recruited guys defying odds and making it. I absolutely can't and won't say otherwise.

But when evaluating recruiting efforts - which is what we should be focused on, given the inexact ability to predict outcomes - it is clear that Syracuse's QB recruiting in recent years has been subpar. Sometimes your plan D ends up better than your plan A. But over time - if you are a quality talent evaluator - your plan A should be a better player than your plan D. If things went to plan for Syracuse, Markiewicz, Summers, or Morgan would not be on campus. Just because things ended up well for the British at Dunkirk doesn't mean anyone would want their troops pinned against the beach.

Negativity sucks, and being an outright pessimist takes all the fun out of being a fan. But starry eyed optimism isn't much better. Hope for the best, but be grounded in realism. And, like it or not, the realistic take on Syracuse QB recruiting since Devito has been gloomy.

Amie was a ***up, but he wasn't a particularly good get. He was a Texas kid who attracted little attention from area P5 schools, despite being in the talent rich Tyler area. His choice came down to Houston and Syracuse. Perhaps other schools pegged him for a head case and backed off? Perhaps it is even the right move for Syracuse to take shots on high upside athletes with iffy mental evaluations in case one happens to pan out. But in no way was he a "good get". Maybe a high upside get, but there wasn't much competition for him. The lack of competition for a recruit tends to be a good barometer.

Lets hope Lamson is the real deal, or one of the QBs already on campus is lightning in a bottle. But Lamson was the 17th QB offer they put out. Markiewicz and Morgan were last minute fliers after priority targets went elsewhere. While acknowledging that nobody knows with certainty how good a guy is until the pads are on and the games are players, it is impossible to conclude that QB recruiting has been going as intended.

He may not have been a "particularly good get" but the coaches raved about him running the scout team. They thought he had a legitimate chance to follow ED as the starter. Unfortunately, his off field decision making and questionable character forced them to boot him.

 

[Wrinkle]

People love to say we need a QB who can make plays with his feet. Why don't we fix the goddamn offensive line, and then we won't need a gifted playmaker at QB, and we will actually be able to move the goddamn ball.

 

[orangepassion]

We've struggled doesn't have to mean a particular guy won't ultimately play well-It means we couldn't land a competent QB in the coaches eyes before having to take someone at signing day. I am hopeful that Markiewicz or Lamson is the answer, but it doesn't change the above facts that 3 years in a row, we had to settle for a less-second grab after being turned down many times. As a matter of fact, I have my doubts that we get Lamson if Martin is still our QB Coach.
The good news is I think the light finally went on last year for Dino in terms of recruiting and he finally brought in some quality recruiters. The results in this class speak for themselves.

I'm comfortable saying that nobody here knows what we have in Morgan, Markiewicz, or Lamson yet -- so I don't agree with the conclusion that we've "struggled" -- but I certainly understand why people might be concerned.

3 of the 5 years we've landed QBs right around signing day [it wasn't just last year] -- which isn't ideal. Juxtapose that with what transpired for the class of 2021, when we landed our QB early and didn't have to worry about it.

But WHEN we landed a prospect is irrelevant, all that matters is that we landed them and what happens next. What does when we landed someone matter, if -- just for example -- Markeiwicz or Morgan end up being a quality starter?

Consider that of the QBs this coaching staff has brought in, the top rated one -- DeVito -- hasn't lived up to the billing. That alone should highlight what a crapshoot projecting QB prospects is.

Because of that, the coaches just need to add the best athletes and system fits they can, get as much QB talent in the pipeline as they can, and let the chips fall where they may. Some guys have better tools than others, while others may have the "IT" factor, whereas others don't.

 

[All4SU]

I think it’s interesting that several posters here say we need a “Gunslinger” at QB. If you recall at the start of last year, when things weren’t going great, that’s exactly what HCDB called TD. The mission became to dial that back a little bit.

 

[KevMonstah]

People love to say we need a QB who can make plays with his feet. Why don't we fix the goddamn offensive line, and then we won't need a gifted playmaker at QB, and we will actually be able to move the goddamn ball.

This is stellar. I think, probably, it would make sense to maybe forget about the rush to
80 plays on offense, and maybe, maybe, take a few seconds and think about the play,
the situation, etc, and make sure to value the possession. I disdain those that SU seems
to come out, in a key point, and go inc-inc-inc-punt, like right after the opponent scores,
and seemingly rush to get their D back out on the field. Devito seems to be one of these
older style QBs, in the category of a Brees [NOT a comparison of him to Brees, just the
style] where he's better off with a slower tempo. That's all. You don't need to run shotgun
every play. You don't need to snap it with half the play clock left. Think about the play, look
over the D, don't just rush up, and go. I think the runs up the middle could be cut down. I
think screens, swing passes, and the TEs could be used. That's playcalling stuff. But then,
yeah, Devito has to stop with the, "I'm going right, ... still going right, and I'm going right out
of bounds or chucking it away." The wasted plays are what kills this offense, not to mention
the ridiculous amount of penalties they commit. Once you are finally at the point that you're
not hurting yourself, then you put the onus on Devito and see what he can do. But if you
going to call way too many dumb plays, and commit too many penalties, with an unsettled
OL that can't seem to do anything, it's not all on him.

They seem to go out of their way to make everything harder on themselves.

Kev

 

[SuFTW]

Dungey missed a LOT of potentially huge gainers by either locking onto "his guy", or as you said, looking away from a read and not giving it the time it needed to open up.

You'd see him hoist a 50/50 ball when there was another receiver literally WIDE OPEN, with nobody between them and the endzone.

He'd also be quick to call his own #, rather than wait the extra second to let the receivers get open.
Word was that did not endear him to them, because who wants to bust their ass to get open, only to see the QB has tucked it and is running again?

Obviously he made a lot more positive things happen than negative, but that was more along the lines of:
"He's a baller!" (-Dabo Swinney), rather than "he's a great QB who makes all the right reads".

Since TDV isn't likely to morph into a 'baller' at this stage, we need him to learn to see and make the reads.

Yes, it is fashionable to point out Dungey’s faults, but they are overstated compared to what he accomplished.

 

[Cusefan69]

We also have to remember as far as QB recruiting. While we want or think we need more dual threat QB’s, especially if O-line will be an issue more often than not. That’s not what DB wants in a QB. DeVito is the style of QB that DB prefers, not Dungey.

I wonder if that's true still. I agree it was when he first joined but snagging Lamson (sp?) out of California for next year was a great get and he is a bigtime dual threat QB. I wonder if we are seeing our new OCs DNA in the selection or if Babers has evolved his philosophy based on ED success and oline issues.

 

[newmexicuse]

I think very few on here really understand the offense. I dont many here every played QB and most in here are old enough that none of this style of offense even existed back in our day.. Sure he made some bad plays/throws. But as Dino says lost of things have to go right for a play to work. if the first read is Wide and its covered and the 2nd read is inside and that guy runs the wrong route the QB ends up looking pretty lost.

We as a group also fail to understand the reads are in a pre-determined order based on the play and the D and the down/distance.. Its not as simple hey that guy is more open throw it to him . Maybe the offense has a play and the D is in man look. That tells the first look to be the X running a slant, but the D was hiding some coverage so that look is not good post snap. So they he comes off it to the check down but they cover that too or he runs the wrong route and now he wants his 3rd read but the oline has missed something and the play has broken down.

we have issues in lots of places. there were 3-4 throws made where WRs ran to the wrong spot, we had several bad throws, we had 3-4 drops, we had 3-4-5 bad protections.. We had 2-3 good protections where the RBs missed blocks. And I am sure we had multiple bad reads by the QB..

You can think what you want about tommie. Personally, I think he is mediocre, but that is neither here nor there. The real issue is that he is not the right type of player to go with the surrounding talent. We need somebody who can extend plays and be physically strong enough to to gain the critical couple of yards in short yardage situations. Dungey was perfect for that and tommie has a different game. He might excel in a different situation, but it won’t happen here IMHO.

 

[qdawgg]

I wonder if that's true still. I agree it was when he first joined but snagging Lamson (sp?) out of California for next year was a great get and he is a bigtime dual threat QB. I wonder if we are seeing our new OCs DNA in the selection or if Babers has evolved his philosophy based on ED success and oline issues.

Very possible. Would be interesting to know.

 

[PatMark]

I find it hard to put blame on TD. Sure there are plays he is leaving on the field. But guys, we have MAC level skill players around him.

 

[Steelerswan]

unc has a stud QB who threw INTs. Ours didnt.. One big difference was that UNC oline did a better job of letting the 2-3 read get thrown too.

pre-snap isnt always about where to throw its about where to look. What i wish we were better at and one thing ED did at times was take what the D gives you and not always throw to where the play is designed. It hurt us too but also led to moving the ball and accepting that 4-5 yds passes are a good thing.

There was one clear example Sat where the slot was uncovered on 3rd down but we threw else where. I think sometimes we have to just take the first down when as a team we struggle to move the chains.. And others have said the same thing, maybe less of where we are supposed to go and more on just making positive plays.

But if teams like Clemson are gonna man you all over, and you cant get open there is no pre-post snap reads, you need to trust someone can win a man-o-man battle. And they want to take the 4 on then you have 6-7 in the box and thats hard to run against too.

lets see where we are after the GT game.

That's part of the issue, that TD did NOT throw a pick. Balls are overthrown to be conservative or thrown out of bounds for the same reason as TD cares about his stats. He needs to take shots and let it rip. This is half on the coaches bc the routes and combos are predictable and vanilla and its travesty.

 

[AngryOtto]

I don't need stats, I have eyes. You must be blind.

Completely agree. I am not a coach but if I and others can clearly see his issues so can opposing coaches.

 

[RobVTX]

IMHO I don't think people are too down TD. I know it was just a couple of passes last game but they were IMO
no touch passes. Maybe not no touch but misplaced. The Queely pass especially. He has his man beat by
3,4,5 yards. the closest other defender is maybe a yard inside the left hash. Throw to the right shoulder with air
under it... TD. And I'll probably get murdered for this, but the Johnson touchdown miss also. Don't get me wrong. That's a catch 99% % of the time. But... the replay shows IMO that the defender is beaten by 4 or 5 yards. Just loft to the corner. Not enough touch on that pass. Went through his hands (and again should have been caught) but bounced probably 4,5 yards past after the miss.

 

[CousCuse]

That's part of the issue, that TD did NOT throw a pick. Balls are overthrown to be conservative or thrown out of bounds for the same reason as TD cares about his stats. He needs to take shots and let it rip. This is half on the coaches bc the routes and combos are predictable and vanilla and its travesty.

Normally a QB with "arm talent" is guilty of the opposite of what DeVito is. They are constantly trying to fire the ball thru tight spots of throwing the ball up for grabs on deep routes. They acquire a lot of INT's and incompletions. But they believe they can make plays happen and change the game.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

People love to say we need a QB who can make plays with his feet. Why don't we fix the goddamn offensive line, and then we won't need a gifted playmaker at QB, and we will actually be able to move the goddamn ball.

I can count on one hand the number of good OLs we have had in the last 44 years. Easier to find an athlete at QB.

 

[AngryOtto]

I find it hard to put blame on TD. Sure there are plays he is leaving on the field. But guys, we have MAC level skill players around him.

Most of our skill players all had power 5 offers. Quelly, Harris, jj, Hendricks. Pierre did not have other power 5 offers but Tucker had numerous. Hackett had multiple power 5 offers. I am not sure any of our wr did not have other power 5 offers. The line is different. Bergeron did not but I would not trade him. Tinsdale had other power 5 offers. Vitterello had multiple power 5 offers. Servace did not have any power 5 offers but I doubt anyone on here wants him replaced. We did have a lot of injuries but we have guys that either received power 5 offers or is a player I feel most are happy he signed.
I do not believe it is accurate to say we do not have talented skill players. They may not be 5 stars but they are good power 5 talent.

 

[Cusefan69]

The thing is TD didn’t have a great game. Neither did the oline, the rbs and the wrs. The whole offense was deficient. QBs get to much credit and take to much blame. I am ready for the next game. This has been talked out.

 

[Entropic]

Normally a QB with "arm talent" is guilty of the opposite of what DeVito is. They are constantly trying to fire the ball thru tight spots of throwing the ball up for grabs on deep routes. They acquire a lot of INT's and incompletions. But they believe they can make plays happen and change the game.

If I remember right, Drew Allen was a prototypical gunslinger and he threw an interception every like 5 passes or something.

 

[Keger03]

The thing is TD didn’t have a great game. Neither did the oline, the rbs and the wrs. The whole offense was deficient. QBs get to much credit and take to much blame. I am ready for the next game. This has been talked out.

I dont know if its too much blame or the fact is that its his 3rd year and it feels like groundhogs day watching that offense with him at QB. Maybe play calling or whatever but Rex made the offense look different. So did CW last year. Neither of them has the talent TD does then what is the proper response? (not calling you out by the way).

 

[TheCusian]

Yes, it is fashionable to point out Dungey’s faults, but they are overstated compared to what he accomplished.

They are pertinent because of what he accomplished. We don’t need Tommy to be perfect, we need to see growth.

 

[TheCusian]

Are we ready to see the game as “in it in the 4th Q vs a top 25 team on the road” yet?

Or if you’d like to mix it with a little “not so shocking that our offense was out of sync in the first game”

I know it looked like last year - esp Tommy and the OL - but I’m going to wait to call for true freshman QBs or even Rex

 

[SuFTW]

They are pertinent because of what he accomplished. We don’t need Tommy to be perfect, we need to see growth.

No, not relevant to Tommy. Breaking down Dungey to build up Tommy doesn’t actually help Tommy.

edit:I agree with your interpretation, but that’s not how the other post came off to me.

 

[RF2044]

We've struggled doesn't have to mean a particular guy won't ultimately play well-It means we couldn't land a competent QB in the coaches eyes before having to take someone at signing day. I am hopeful that Markiewicz or Lamson is the answer, but it doesn't change the above facts that 3 years in a row, we had to settle for a less-second grab after being turned down many times. As a matter of fact, I have my doubts that we get Lamson if Martin is still our QB Coach.
The good news is I think the light finally went on last year for Dino in terms of recruiting and he finally brought in some quality recruiters. The results in this class speak for themselves.

There's some factual information in your post, but it seems like you're also applying revisionist history filtered through the 20/20 lens of hindsight with respect to Amie to validate your perspective.

Class one we landed DeVito, missed out on Coan. DeVito ended up being upgraded to a four star on some services, and wasn't a last second grab. Fans were thrilled about us landing our highest profile QB recruit in years.

Class two we lost out on some guys, including Amie -- who was a high priority target -- then flipped him back on signing day. He was a last second grab, but wasn't a settle -- he was a guy the staff was very, very high on. Two years in a row, we got a QB who was rated extremely highly on our board. And while some now look at Amie as a failure, and point to his subpar JUCO productivity, I would like to counter that with Dungey's perspective when Amie was a true frosh -- where he expressed the opinion that instead of DeVito being his successor, that Amie shouldn't be counted out. Too bad he was such a *** up, because we'll never know for sure.

Class three we lost out on all of our top priorities, but pivoted to Summers late after Maryland's coaching change. He redshirted last year. I realize that a portion of the board has already written him off, but his story is still being written. I am certainly comfortable classifying him as a settle, by your criteria.

Last year, class four, we lost several of our top targets, tried to get creative and convince Villeaux to reclassify, and when that didn't happen we were out in the cold. Babers made staff changes, in quick order they identified an intriguing prospect without offers [Markewicz] and an athlete without offers [Morgan]. Jury's still out, but I understand why people view them both as settles. I personally think, based upon film, that Dillon could be a high caliber, multi-year starter, and not just a warm body.

This class, we missed out on a kid we liked who went to Duke, then got the guy rated #2 on our board. He wasn't a last minute grab.

So, in 3 out of 5 years, we got a guy we highly targeted, and in 2 out of 5 it wasn't last minute [with the third year being a guy we loved in Amie and managed to flip]. And that one of the other two years people are ringing alarm bells about wasn't nearly the disaster some are making it out to be.

Amie and DeVito are inexorably linked, IMO, with the fanbase's perception of what's happening. We went from euphoric after landing Tommy and then flipping Amie in a second class, to being greatly concerned after Amie decided to quit at the same time we were struggling to land a QB in class three. If DeVito were lighting it up, nobody would care -- we'd be looking down the road. But since he's struggling, that runway is gone. Some seem to view QB recruiting as a problem / hole that can never be rectified.

For those for whom the glass is half empty, they view the above as confirmatory evidence. For those who are more glass half full, DeVito is disappointing, there was a hiccup, but things are back on track. Too early to tell which side is right until we see what the young guys can do.

I certainly understand trepidation about Morgan / Markewicz, but I like what I'm hearing out of fall sessions with BOTH guys. And I strongly believe that based upon logic / theory / empirical evidence that Lamson is better than both of them. Again, all we need is one of them to pan out, and things look up quickly.

If none of them pan out, then Babers will be out of a job.