Pete Thamel

[tbonezone]

Waiting for Westry is a bit like Waiting for Godot. ultimately he never shows up .

(that;s right . dropping some sammy beckett on yer a$$). culture this place up.

 

[721Comstock]

Thats a very fair counterpoint. Debacle is probably to strong of a word, and many people did want him back. That said I think it helps to some degree to illustrate my general point that after having that contract experience you would think the athletic department would have even more reason to be conservative when issuing large contracts to unknown unproven individuals.

Extending Dino after the 2018 season was the no-brainer of no-brainers.

He earned whatever he got.
He just didn’t keep earning it in the following seasons.

That has less than zero bearing on whatever contract Red got.

Coconuts and oranges.

Still not seeing anything to make anyone think another season of Red at the helm, is going to be appreciably better than these last 2.

We could crush it in the portal -
but, I doubt we will, because what exactly is Red selling to anybody?

And even then, who has any confidence that Red would deploy and motivate these players any better than what we’ve seen to date?

We have zero good wins this entire season.

Even spunky mid-majors can occasionally knock off some better teams.
We… cannot.

That’s how we knew FHCSMFS needed to go on the football side -
He had zero upset W’s.

And that’s how we know Red needs to go now.

 

[Bulldog04]

I think this clip is super important. Not saying kids on SU don’t play hard or try hard, but the blowouts and what not, doesn’t seem like they hate to lose. I know for the 5000th time the coaching could be better, but I’ve heard what’s said over and over to these kids about being tougher and everything like that so that has been discussed at length. I’ve seen the full contact drills at practice to build some toughness. The kids seem okay with losing. They seem okay with letting teams score 97 points on them. I may be out of line with this, but that’s what I see. They are okay with losing especially because they are getting paid now….

 

[Scooch]

I think this clip is super important. Not saying kids on SU don’t play hard or try hard, but the blowouts and what not, doesn’t seem like they hate to lose. I know for the 5000th time the coaching could be better, but I’ve heard what’s said over and over to these kids about being tougher and everything like that so that has been discussed at length. I’ve seen the full contact drills at practice to build some toughness. The kids seem okay with losing. They seem okay with letting teams score 97 points on them. I may be out of line with this, but that’s what I see. They are okay with losing especially because they are getting paid now….

This has been an issue over the past 8 years of SU hoops, in my opinion. There's a reason people were sarcastically saying "As long as they're having fun!" during the Boeheim & Sons era. Seemed like everyone involved with the program was just happy to be there and no one was really killing themselves to win titles. JB sure wasn't, we know that.

 

[DilemaCuse]

I have no energy for the essay I started to type in response to this and I know it’s not your word and I know you dont agree with what they think but holy hell this program is a pathetic joke. They’re telling on themselves with almost every single one of those points. you know why this school/program is looking poverty right now? Because they act like poverty, run it like it’s poverty and present themselves like a victim. Why anyone is surprised by that is beyond me. You get what you put it in. They made their bed but for som reason all they do is make excuse after excuse and blame everything and everyone else.

Appearing on lists like these make it even harder to accept the fact they run it like a poverty program.

https://www.2adays.com/blog/top-10-division-i-basketball-programs-by-revenue/

#2 in revenue! #2!

I would love to know how $34 million in annual revenue is allocated. Has some of it been going to football to help them get up to speed? Dome renovations I figure, subsidize the other sports and then towards to the general fund leaving hardly any left over for the actual bball program?

If you have a revenue producer, you need to keep allocating sufficiently towards that revenue producer, feed that golden goose.

 

[pearl31]

His summer workout was great. He was scrimmaging a ton. Practicing a ton. Working out a ton and then he got sick but he was still very engaged. I talked to him at Melo Madness which was October 21st and the first day he was out. He said he would be back in a couple weeks. He was fully planning on playing. I won’t share his personal business after that though why he’s not playing. But he was doing all the right things and was scrimmaging a ton so the injury talk from what I saw in practices wasn’t the issue

Thank you.

 

[cuseman2016]

I think this clip is super important. Not saying kids on SU don’t play hard or try hard, but the blowouts and what not, doesn’t seem like they hate to lose. I know for the 5000th time the coaching could be better, but I’ve heard what’s said over and over to these kids about being tougher and everything like that so that has been discussed at length. I’ve seen the full contact drills at practice to build some toughness. The kids seem okay with losing. They seem okay with letting teams score 97 points on them. I may be out of line with this, but that’s what I see. They are okay with losing especially because they are getting paid now….

Aren't these all the kids the staff and more importantly Red brought in though? Even with the NIL excuse you can still get kids are who cheaper but just hate to lose more than they like to win. Go be 12-17 but lose rock fights where you are diving all over the floor and giving it your all on the defensive end. JJ is the perfect example of this. (and Reds main guy). Cant guard a traffic cone, but if he is getting his 15 shots a night and scoring 20 he is okay with another bad loss where we give up 80 plus.

Rosters can be turned over year after year these days, but even if it was his first season you could say well he inherited this team. The staff really just has no pulse on not only talent but also player personalities and makeup if they are surprised on the guys they are bringing in lack toughness and heart.

These kids who are "okay with losing" is entirely on the coaching staff IMO.

 

[cuseguy]

OK, took the time to read just about every post in this thread. I spend a lot less time here than I once did, but it’s good to get the general vibe.

Red’s contract and his future?

No one here seemed to have any concrete information on his contact. A lot of speculation but nothing firm.

I have no doubt he’ll be back for another year. The Freeman injury and portal mishaps, of course, will play a factor. But you also don’t chase a coach, particularly a longstanding alum, after two years. The next guy isn’t going to want to take the job knowing his leash is short.

Is Red a bad coach?

Well, he won 20 games last year so there’s something to be said for that. I sometimes question his substitution patterns, but I like how he’s kept the bench active and tried different combinations. I can also say that this team hasn’t quit on him. This is unquestionably one of the least most talented teams in many years, possibly dating back to the 60s. And while we’ll never know, a healthy Freeman probably would have accounted for 3-4 more wins. He seemed to be taking the next step in his development just before his injury, so we’ll never know how he would have performed in the second half.

How does the roster look going forward?

A lot of wild speculation here.

We’ll need two centers, one who can average double digits as a scorer and rebounder.

Freeman? This is huge. Absolutely essential that he returns and is healthy.

Starling? He’s a local kid and I believe he’ll be back. But only if he’s guaranteed a key role.

I also doubt we have the money to find better replacements for Freeman and Starking along with filling other portal nerds.

If Freeman returns, I think Bell leaves. He may anyway.

Anthony could scare away Moore. But everyone needs to press the brakes on Anthony. He’ll be good, but don’t anoint him as a star too quickly. He’ll need time.

We’ll have a pretty good idea what next year’s team will look like by late May. Red’s future may be cast before we even play a game next year.

 

[MSOrange]

This has been an issue over the past 8 years of SU hoops, in my opinion. There's a reason people were sarcastically saying "As long as they're having fun!" during the Boeheim & Sons era. Seemed like everyone involved with the program was just happy to be there and no one was really killing themselves to win titles. JB sure wasn't, we know that.

And happy to just sneak into the tournament occasionally and win a game or two so they can claim everything is fine and the 30 regular season games are meaningless and not a sign of any possible issues.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We have to pay for JJ any way right not like he is free? Use his money for a replacement that plays defense that works hard.

We paid JJ less than what Leffew wanted last year. He's due a raise, but he's also due a somewhat smaller role. It's going to be interesting which guys they retain.

 

[Scooch]

His summer workout was great. He was scrimmaging a ton. Practicing a ton. Working out a ton and then he got sick but he was still very engaged. I talked to him at Melo Madness which was October 21st and the first day he was out. He said he would be back in a couple weeks. He was fully planning on playing. I won’t share his personal business after that though why he’s not playing. But he was doing all the right things and was scrimmaging a ton so the injury talk from what I saw in practices wasn’t the issue

So then why was the staff saying that anything they got from him this season was a bonus? Were they afraid to count on him despite the good workouts?

I mean, the staff said that. People heard it from their lips.

 

[cuseguy]

We paid JJ less than what Leffew wanted last year. He's due a raise, but he's also due a somewhat smaller role. It's going to be interesting which guys they retain.

If JJ leaves, we better be ready to pay up for an elite ACC point guard.

 

[Scooch]

If JJ leaves, we better be ready to pay up for an elite ACC point guard.

We need an elite PG regardless of what Starling does. He's not a PG in any way.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

I have no doubt he’ll be back for another year. The Freeman injury and portal mishaps, of course, will play a factor. But you also don’t chase a coach, particularly a longstanding alum, after two years. The next guy isn’t going to want to take the job knowing his leash is short.

Coaches getting fired after two years is not unusual; someone posted a pretty long list in another thread.

The whole "nobody will come here due to the short leash" thing... isn't a thing. In P5 ball, it's perform or move on. It's not like firing Red will be a fickle move; it's been a complete faceplant, and people citing 20 wins in season 1 where we didn't even sniff the tourney shows how bad it is rather than how good Red can be. If anything, his termination would demonstrate the commitment to the program that a strong candidate would appreciate.

Any coach worried about the former guy getting fired after two years... shouldn't be the next guy.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Appearing on lists like these make it even harder to accept the fact they run it like a poverty program.

https://www.2adays.com/blog/top-10-division-i-basketball-programs-by-revenue/

#2 in revenue! #2!

I would love to know how $34 million in annual revenue is allocated. Has some of it been going to football to help them get up to speed? Dome renovations I figure, subsidize the other sports and then towards to the general fund leaving hardly any left over for the actual bball program?

If you have a revenue producer, you need to keep allocating sufficiently towards that revenue producer, feed that golden goose.

Yep. And despite all that money, they have played it cheap for so long that next year attendance and revenue is going to crater.

 

[Scooch]

Red’s future may be cast before we even play a game next year.

This is true. If we don't retain Freeman, Starling, Moore AND absolutely crush it in the portal then it's almost certainly game over.

 

[Scooch]

Coaches getting fired after two years is not unusual; someone posted a pretty long list in another thread.

The whole "nobody will come here due to the short leash" thing... isn't a thing. In P5 ball, it's perform or move on. It's not like firing Red will be a fickle move; it's been a complete faceplant, and people citing 20 wins in season 1 where we didn't even sniff the tourney shows how bad it is rather than how good Red can be. If anything, his termination would demonstrate the commitment to the program that a strong candidate would appreciate.

Any coach worried about the former guy getting fired after two years... shouldn't be the next guy.

People said we'd struggle to attract HC candidates because we fired Dino after making bowls 2 years in a row. They were wrong.

People are always wrong when they suggest the circumstances of a firing will deter others from wanting the job. That only happens when a team has a long history of dysfunction (see: New York Jets).

 

[OCESIP]

I think this clip is super important. Not saying kids on SU don’t play hard or try hard, but the blowouts and what not, doesn’t seem like they hate to lose. I know for the 5000th time the coaching could be better, but I’ve heard what’s said over and over to these kids about being tougher and everything like that so that has been discussed at length. I’ve seen the full contact drills at practice to build some toughness. The kids seem okay with losing. They seem okay with letting teams score 97 points on them. I may be out of line with this, but that’s what I see. They are okay with losing especially because they are getting paid now….

You're mostly right with the "okay with losing" point. Any athlete who takes the court feels better when winning. But there's a difference in today's collegiate world than generations back. Kids have no ownership or loyalty to a program. There may be a few isolated exceptions, but kids have no pride in identifying with a school or carrying on with it's traditions. It's only the "fans" who put the school's success first and foremost.

Personally, I'll always hope that the program is successful. But I've stopped being a fan of the sport because of the way that the portal and NIL have changed the whole dynamic of the system.

 

[tbonezone]

Yep. And despite all that money, they have played it cheap for so long that next year attendance and revenue is going to crater.

let's just hope they bring in enuf Monster Truck revenue to keep the arena open.

 

[MSOrange]

Coaches getting fired after two years is not unusual; someone posted a pretty long list in another thread.

The whole "nobody will come here due to the short leash" thing... isn't a thing. In P5 ball, it's perform or move on. It's not like firing Red will be a fickle move; it's been a complete faceplant, and people citing 20 wins in season 1 where we didn't even sniff the tourney shows how bad it is rather than how good Red can be. If anything, his termination would demonstrate the commitment to the program that a strong candidate would appreciate.

Any coach worried about the former guy getting fired after two years... shouldn't be the next guy.

Agree. I think potential coaches look at the infrastructure regarding NIL and support staff etc to evaluate if they can succeed in this job. If they feel that's all there and the previous coach just wasn't a great coach, I don't think the 2 years is a big deal.

 

[Cuse12]

Let's be blunt here; anyone that had anything to do with such a ridiculous deal for such an underqualified candidate should be given their pink slip.

What leverage does red have in regards to a buyout?!? How in gods name does he even have one??? What other programs were wanting his services that badly where we had to offer a buy out. Fireable offense for whomever made that deal. Wow.

 

[5OutFred]

Brutally honest opinions re: SU state of the program in the replies here. Without orange-colored glasses, this doesn't end well.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If JJ leaves, we better be ready to pay up for an elite ACC point guard.

JJ has as many turnovers as assists. He shoots 30% from 3 and 69% from the free throw line with zero defense. He's part of this dumpster fire.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Appearing on lists like these make it even harder to accept the fact they run it like a poverty program.

https://www.2adays.com/blog/top-10-division-i-basketball-programs-by-revenue/

#2 in revenue! #2!

I would love to know how $34 million in annual revenue is allocated. Has some of it been going to football to help them get up to speed? Dome renovations I figure, subsidize the other sports and then towards to the general fund leaving hardly any left over for the actual bball program?

If you have a revenue producer, you need to keep allocating sufficiently towards that revenue producer, feed that golden goose.

I bet less than a third of that revenue actually stays with the basketball program.

 

[Fly Rodder]

People still think that this team just needs a little improvement around the edges and we're safely in the tourney are deluding themselves. The roster needs a complete overhaul and, even then, it's going to be an uphill slog.