Pete Thamel

[Janner]

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

It seems when you look across the country and the P5 everyone with our size pocketbook seem, for the most part, to be managing just fine and winning. What I dont want to hear is excuses for the second year in a row that its the kids. Last year it was we heard (from posters with ties to the program, not necessarily from you)" if you only knew what the coaches were dealing with" "these kids have so many attitude issues" "once Red cleans house and gets his guys in you'll see how much different it is". Fast forward to now, and all the kids selected from the portal. And its the kids faults, again, for a second year in a row? Totally different issue this time, but still the kids fault because they arnt playing with fire or motivation? I personally find that a hard pill to swallow this time. Tons of other teams in the P5 paying A LOT more money to the kids than we are and they seem to be getting them to play hard. Motivating your kids to play, IMHO, is a large part of the job of the coach. And while I'm replying to your post this isn't directed specifically at you. I've said before, and ill say it again, you are a great poster and your information is GREATLY appreciated. So don't think this directed specifically at you, you're just passing on what your hearing and seeing. I get that. And, this is all just my opinion, no one has to agree with me, im fine with that, and pray im seeing it all totally wrong, but thats just how im seeing it

 

[IthacaMatt]

VT plays defense with almost four guys having one foot in the paint. They’ve shown they will guard the ball but very little denial. Louie Carnesecca used to play man the same way. I think Red would really like to play pressure on the ball and first pass denial, but this team isn’t close to be able to play that way.

We never saw it, because he refused to play Cuffe, McLeod and Moore most of the time, and only played Freeman about half the time when he was healthy.

If you only play 7-8 guys by choice and don't use your bench, then of course you're not going to be able to play pressure defense. Let's be honest, he hasn't really tried to do it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

OK, so he did that with Bell. It didn't work.

Well, Bell has been shooting much better since he started coming off the bench.

 

[Scooch]

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

What I would "blame" the staff for is not properly evaluating these guys.

These players are all very well known commodities. Some of them SU has known since their early days of high school. We've all watched people play sports and it's not rocket science to determine who's a dawg and who's soft.

So while I agree that the players need to own their deficiencies, it's also on the staff for not having a better handle on that aspect of these player's psyche and work ethic.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I’d say the number of kids that genuinely want to play defense gets fewer every year. Thank the NBA and AAU.

Need coaches to demand it or they sit. Not give them a “nice guy” high 5.

I mean everyone else we play has players that played AAU too.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Well, Bell has been shooting much better since he started coming off the bench.

I very seldom say great things about Bell, but this team is terrible finding him or setting him up for shots. Any point guard with some basketball IQ should look for Bell in transition unless someone has a layup. Too many times I’ve seen 3 on 1 breaks and the ball is passed to a guy who can‘t shoot instead of finding Bell. We’ve had smart point guards when leading the break will dribble handoff to the teams best shooter or find them trailing the play. That hardly ever happens with this team.

 

[Newhouser]

These guys didn’t just come out from under a rock. They’ve coached in several other programs. Bulldog has said he’s seen them coach in practice. It’s a combination of several things. Athletically insufficient, a want to or desire issue and the coaches holding everyone accountable. Unless your bigs are capable of showing on screens and recovering, you have to adjust. When your guards consistently don’t get through screens and keep guys in front of them your defense is going to be bad. The combination is lethal. They’ve shown they can do it in stretches, but not for forty minutes. That tells me it’s not a teaching issue but an accountability issue. It’s not just one, but practically the entire team. When you sit people and the guys coming in do the same thing, you’re screwed. It seems like things don‘t carry over from practice. You can see Red’s frustration after games. He knows it and wants to fix it. He made that pretty clear on the ACC call in today. Let’s see what he comes up with. With this team he should probably play man differently and play soft and just keep the ball in front. VT plays that way.

Game 28;is a good time to come up with a plan. If he had one he would have implemented it months ago, or at least one hopes.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Tend to think Starling is gone if he isn’t starting next year, and I fully understand your thinking. What may happen is we land a top PG and Starling plays the 2. That means Moore probably transfers.

Yes, and then we have to get a SF who can hit a 3, and play the entire game, not just be a shooter, to replace Bell. We need a really good PG and a really good SF to be able to carry JJ as the slasher guard to push the pace.

That results in losing Moore, of course, and there's going to be a squeeze on either White or Freeman, if he's back. Because (1) Freeman isn't ready to be your SF yet, and (2) neither of them is a C, so you still need one of those apart from Petar.

 

[tbonezone]

I very seldom say great things about Bell,

well , if pressed i'd say he's a pretty good recovery breakaway dunk block guy.
and unfortunately he gets far too many opportunities to showcase that skill.

 

[Red2003]

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

Had a good convo about this awhile back. I agree. The closest I see to player leadership on this team is Eddie Lampkin and that's been hit or miss. Do we even have a team captain?

The back court is the worst lot we’ve ever had and I really don’t think it’s me being dramatic after a loss.

Leadership is not what JJ or Carlos are giving. Bell is the opposite of a leader. The other 1 year portal guys and freshman should never have been in that position either to have to lead the team.

Don’t even ask who the glue guy is on the team. Is that Cuffe maybe or Taylor but they’re so inconsistent it doesn’t matter?

Now of course that's Red's fault for that situation in the first place, I’m not denying that.

The players were never tight with each other though and never got it together. It’s why watching Lemoyne and watching Va Tech feels the same months later.

 

[Red2003]

It seems when you look across the country and the P5 everyone with our size pocketbook seem, for the most part, to be managing just fine and winning. What I dont want to hear is excuses for the second year in a row that its the kids. Last year it was we heard (from posters with ties to the program, not necessarily from you)" if you only knew what the coaches were dealing with" "these kids have so many attitude issues" "once Red cleans house and gets his guys in you'll see how much different it is". Fast forward to now, and all the kids selected from the portal. And its the kids faults, again, for a second year in a row? Totally different issue this time, but still the kids fault because they arnt playing with fire or motivation? I personally find that a hard pill to swallow this time. Tons of other teams in the P5 paying A LOT more money to the kids than we are and they seem to be getting them to play hard. Motivating your kids to play, IMHO, is a large part of the job of the coach. And while I'm replying to your post this isn't directed specifically at you. I've said before, and ill say it again, you are a great poster and your information is GREATLY appreciated. So don't think this directed specifically at you, you're just passing on what your hearing and seeing. I get that. And, this is all just my opinion, no one has to agree with me, im fine with that, and pray im seeing it all totally wrong, but thats just how im seeing it

Maybe just maybe when you say P5 schools are paying a lot more for the kids they are not necessarily playing harder they can just can play on both ends of the court. Not sure I would say we have any 2 way players at all.

I agree though that Autry should’ve nipped this problem in October and November. They are his guys as well and it’s on him #1.

The season was over before it started too. We went 3-8 for that NonCon stretch. The season was dead already barring some miracle then the injuries were basically like shooting a horse that was already dead.

The players never responded. We know the coaches never did and now we all just need to click the delete button.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Had a good convo about this awhile back. I agree. The closest I see to player leadership on this team is Eddie Lampkin and that's been hit or miss. Do we even have a team captain?

The back court is the worst lot we’ve ever had and I really don’t think it’s me being dramatic after a loss.

Leadership is not what JJ or Carlos are giving. Bell is the opposite of a leader. The other 1 year portal guys and freshman should never have been in that position either to have to lead the team.

Don’t even ask who the glue guy is on the team. Is that Cuffe maybe or Taylor but they’re so inconsistent it doesn’t matter?

Now of course that's Red's fault for that situation in the first place, I’m not denying that.

The players were never tight with each other though and never got it together. It’s why watching Lemoyne and watching Va Tech feels the same months later.

Unfortunately, the leader on this team is at Duke.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Actually, several people just today have said that the buyout is not nearly as big as some have suggested. I tend to believe them.

People love to claim that SU is cheap, and yet they’re eager to believe that they promised Red untold riches if he gets fired? Doesn’t add up, does it?

Well, there goes that excuse ...

 

[tbonezone]

Unfortunately, the leader on this team is at Duke.

Unfortunately we have to ask the guy who stole our pocket watch "what time is it ? "

 

[sweetpea]

These guys didn’t just come out from under a rock. They’ve coached in several other programs. Bulldog has said he’s seen them coach in practice. It’s a combination of several things. Athletically insufficient, a want to or desire issue and the coaches holding everyone accountable. Unless your bigs are capable of showing on screens and recovering, you have to adjust. When your guards consistently don’t get through screens and keep guys in front of them your defense is going to be bad. The combination is lethal. They’ve shown they can do it in stretches, but not for forty minutes. That tells me it’s not a teaching issue but an accountability issue. It’s not just one, but practically the entire team. When you sit people and the guys coming in do the same thing, you’re screwed. It seems like things don‘t carry over from practice. You can see Red’s frustration after games. He knows it and wants to fix it. He made that pretty clear on the ACC call in today. Let’s see what he comes up with. With this team he should probably play man differently and play soft and just keep the ball in front. VT plays that way.

I will defer to what you've said. It's not that we are a bit below average. We are in the basement in almost every metric. No improvement as the year progressed in a terrible ACC. I hope we have better players to run whatever defense is installed next year. I want Red and the team to be successful again.

 

[cardiac]

This is the correct way to go, I would keep Moore over JJ. Cheaper next year, more years can mold into the program more etc etc etc just can do more things with him compared to JJ, especially at the state of our program so I would value Moore over JJ to help build a foundation of the program.

But but but but Red needs to win to keep his job so I think he would value JJ over Moore because I think he would think JJ gives him a better chance of winning a game tomorrow.

Freeman is a wildcard I would lean towards him being gone but crazier things have happened but if he is back it will take a big bag and a good chunk of our NIL budget I doubt he stays on the cheap again.

He will stay but were gonna have to pay some "we suck" tax

 

[miamicuse]

Is it unreasonable to ask during a presser or call in show why the players refuse to play defense?

If it's being taught and being practiced why isn't it done in games?

Why can't Red discipline those who doesn't play defense by sitting them? If he doesn't do it he gets no respect and is this what's happening? Play the walk-ons if you must, follow through with your threats instead of high fiving them.

Is it possible recruits know playing for Red you can get away with playing only one side of the ball?

Or could it be something else, pure speculation here, like Red wants to bench JJ but JJ's nil sponsors are saying no we need him to have exposure or else we are not donating anymore?

 

[kingtidge]

Is it unreasonable to ask during a presser or call in show why the players refuse to play defense?

If it's being taught and being practiced why isn't it done in games?

Why can't Red discipline those who doesn't play defense by sitting them? If he doesn't do it he gets no respect and is this what's happening? Play the walk-ons if you must, follow through with your threats instead of high fiving them.

Is it possible recruits know playing for Red you can get away with playing only one side of the ball?

Or could it be something else, pure speculation here, like Red wants to bench JJ but JJ's nil sponsors are saying no we need him to have exposure or else we are not donating anymore?

Watch the post-Miami presser.

Red wholeheartedly admitted we lost because we did not play defense.

He also said he doesn't know why the team doesn't play defense.

He said it's not what or how they practice and that he is constantly talking with the players about effort on defense.

It's not exactly confidence-inspiring I am afraid, as whatever he and his coaches are coaching is not working and he does not know why.

 

[Oakland]

So I gather from this thread and 20 or 30 similar ones, that our players (for whom basketball has been the biggest factor in their lives to which they have devoted untold hours) have no innate desire to play the best they can, and apparently, no desire to get better. Such a shame, if only they had that drive and passion to win, that the posters here have, they could have been good.

 

[Todoubled23]

I'm just waiting to see what happens in the off-season. No need to get bent out of shape over all this every day.

Carry on!

 

[miamicuse]

Watch the post-Miami presser.

Red wholeheartedly admitted we lost because we did not play defense.

He also said he doesn't know why the team doesn't play defense.

He said it's not what or how they practice and that he is constantly talking with the players about effort on defense.

It's not exactly confidence-inspiring I am afraid, as whatever he and his coaches are coaching is not working and he does not know why.

If he doesn't know why, and they do teach it and practice it, than it seems to me Red has lost the confidence of the team, this is what is typically known as the Substitute Teacher Syndrome. The players has no respect for him and they know he is not going to be there long, and they have already mentally checked out.

 

[Scooch]

I think it’s silly to over analyze the press conferences. I’m guessing that if you gave Red truth serum he’d say “our guys suck at defense. That’s why our defense is horrible. I tell them what to do, they try to do it, but they suck at it.”

Now, we can discuss why he assembled a roster loaded with guys who suck at defense. But the bottom line is that almost all of them suck at defense.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Watch the post-Miami presser.

Red wholeheartedly admitted we lost because we did not play defense.

He also said he doesn't know why the team doesn't play defense.

He said it's not what or how they practice and that he is constantly talking with the players about effort on defense.

It's not exactly confidence-inspiring I am afraid, as whatever he and his coaches are coaching is not working and he does not know why.

This is a "yikes" kind of post, of course. And there's no evidence to refute it.

 

[kingtidge]

If he doesn't know why, and they do teach it and practice it, than it seems to me Red has lost the confidence of the team, this is what is typically known as the Substitute Teacher Syndrome. The players has no respect for him and they know he is not going to be there long, and they have already mentally checked out.

I think it’s silly to over analyze the press conferences. I’m guessing that if you gave Red truth serum he’d say “our guys suck at defense. That’s why our defense is horrible. I tell them what to do, they try to do it, but they suck at it.”

Now, we can discuss why he assembled a roster loaded with guys who suck at defense. But the bottom line is that almost all of them suck at defense.

Yeah, I dunno...

Watching the BC overtimes game and seeing Carlos actually play lockdown defense at the end of the game and into overtime. There was motivation and effort there kinda out of thin air. Honestly, I did not think he had that in him.

Then watching that Miami game where there seemed no motivation or effort on defense whatsover from anyone... it made me come to the conclusion that these kids are capable of better effort but simply choose to not play hard on defense most of the time.

Now why they are unmotivated is a good question, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter why if Red can't fix it.

 

[DoctorBombay]

So I gather from this thread and 20 or 30 similar ones, that our players (for whom basketball has been the biggest factor in their lives to which they have devoted untold hours) have no innate desire to play the best they can, and apparently, no desire to get better. Such a shame, if only they had that drive and passion to win, that the posters here have, they could have been good.

Ok- but what's your take on it? I know the players are trying, and it's pretty scary to think this might be their "best". That's a major indictment against Red that he keeps the same players playing and doing the same things, but expecting different results.
Exhibit some cujones and sit someone down who can't hack defense. It's not like we're contending for a title, so why not send the message that defense is important and you won't tolerate what you're seeing. Not too much to ask, no?