PITT Round 2 Post Game

[DilemaCuse]

Unfortunately the sooner Red is gone the sooner the program can start trending back towards being respectable.
Another season of Red could send us down the path Ewing took Georgetown .

We are on that path this season.

 

[Nicknack]

I'm completely fine with JJ not returning next year. He's a poor man's Judah Mintz, and I wasn't a fan of that dude. If he's your best player, or the focal point of your offense, you're in trouble (which we have been from the start). It must be fun to play a game and just chuck it up anytime you feel like it. He's 28 damn percent from deep yet attempts 6 a game. He tossed up 11 last night and only made 3, yet he keeps shooting because that must be the way we can win. There is so much incompetence radiating from the program. Unbelievable.

 

[grepal]

I don't see Red as an icon and if we don't get a legit center next year we are likely going to be bad. Our freshmen may develop into good players. Will they in year one? This year Elijah struggled Donnie boarded and could score but both are sieves on defense. Whoever coaches at SU next year has a ton of work to do, be it Red or someone else.
read this article regarding revenue and spending as it relates to nil on Syracuse .com

With revenue sharing expected to begin soon, Syracuse adds new position in athletic department

Syracuse has hired Kevin Morgan, a former executive with the National Lacrosse League and Washington Capitals.

www.syracuse.com

Syracuse, N.Y. -- With the revenue sharing era of college sports expected to begin next season, Syracuse University has created a new position in its athletic department to help it prepare for the future.

The school announced the creation of a general manager/chief revenue officer position Monday, naming former Washington Capitals and National Lacrosse League executive Kevin Morgan to the position.

The school said that Morgan “will focus on growing existing and creating new revenue streams and provide day-to-day leadership and oversight of all revenue generating departments at Syracuse, as well as the budget office.”


Next year is expected to be the first year that schools are permitted to pay athletes directly. The expected payments are part of a class-action settlement between the NCAA and its power conference and hundreds of thousands of current and former athletes.


Schools are expected to have the option to pay approximately $20.5 million annually directly to athletes starting next season, a number that will likely grow as revenue in the most powerful leagues grows. Those payments depend on a formal approval of the settlement. It has received preliminary approval by Judge Claudia Wilken of the Northern District of California.


Finding that money on an annual basis will be a major challenge for all but the biggest athletic departments and doing so will likely be necessary if schools want to field winning programs.


“With the college athletics landscape continuing to evolve at rapid and dramatic pace, our team must also continue to evolve to remain competitive at the highest level,” Syracuse athletic director John Wildhack said in a statement announcing Morgan’s hiring. “Kevin’s depth and breadth of experience and broad skillset is exactly what Syracuse Athletics needs in this moment. Kevin will bring fresh perspective, big ideas and challenge us all to think entrepreneurially about how to advance our revenue goals.”


Schools in the SEC and the Big Ten are expected to have the easiest time making those payments given the value of their television contracts. Schools in the ACC will likely be next in line.


Syracuse leaders have declined to say exactly how much the school will give to athletes but have said it will be “competitive.”


Job postings for the newly-created position listed the salary between $250,000 and $300,000. The onset of revenue sharing has many schools across the county looking to bring NIL collectives (or their efforts) under the school’s control.


Morgan was most recently the president of Morgan CS, a consulting firm that worked with a number of major names throughout the sports industry.

 

[CardiacCuse]

We have Carlos, Taylor and Euro Dude on the floor at the same time and we expect to win games in the ACC? Please. The 2nd half last night was unwatchable. Non of these are ACC level players. Several others also but I won't name the names. We all know who they are. Very poorly constructed roster -- for whatever reasons. It's unfathomable the severity of the decline of our program.

red is culpable for this

maaaaaybe he could coach a prefect roster into the tourney...maaybe

so far hes shown the worst eye for talent ive ever seen but a lot of people seem to not attach that deficiency to the head coach role. ITS REDS JOB TO CONSTRYCT THE ROSTER!

so no passes from me for horrible talent/rosters

 

[tbonezone]

Red seems to be in over his depth at this point. JB was something of an autocrat. didn't see a lot of bench coach interaction during his tenure. a lot of gum chompers. i mean seriously bernie fine rode shotgun for years on our best teams .i just don't believe JB was ever looking for much input from anybody and therefore always hired in house to keep the fealty . poor red clearly was not properly prepared for the resulting awkward handoff.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Yes because there's a laundry list of people above JW who make decisions, good lord.

Then JW should quit… if I was not able to performance manage my direct reports including potentially firing them if needed, I would be immediately seeking another job.

If a Dean wanted to shite can a professor are there people above them to make the decision? Yes there is a union and probably litigation, but I would be shocked if someone above the dean had to approve it.

 

[Irishsecra1]

Red seems to be in over his depth at this point. JB was something of an autocrat. didn't see a lot of bench coach interaction during his tenure. a lot of gum chompers. i mean seriously bernie fine rode shotgun for years on our best teams .i just don't believe JB was ever looking for much input from anybody and therefore always hired in house to keep the fealty . poor red clearly was not properly prepared for the resulting awkward handoff.

There are lots of good assistant coaches out there who just don’t have what it takes to be a good head coach.
It takes more than a love of basketball and basketball knowledge to be an effective head coach
You have to be an effective and dare I say inspiring leader.
You have to come up with your own offensive and defensive vision and the steps it takes to execute it. No longer are you executing someone else’s vision.
You have to successfully delegate coaching duties among your assistants and hold them accountable if they aren’t doing their jobs effectively.
You have to recruit not only for talent, but for the type of talent that can most effectively execute your offensive and defensive vision. JB was a master of this with his 2-3 zone,
You should have the ability to modify your vision based on the actual players you have. Try to maximize what you have. Stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
You should have the ability to watch what is happening on the court during a game and devise a strategy to put your team in a better position to win,
You should develop a culture that inspires the players to play better than they think they can, for themselves and their teammates.
And no more being a friend and sounding board for the players, you now have to enforce discipline and bring accountability to the players,
Fran has shown that the last 2 points are do able and you can still retain their deep respect.

 

[MSOrange]

Then JW should quit… if I was not able to performance manage my direct reports including potentially firing them if needed, I would be immediately seeking another job.

If a Dean wanted to shite can a professor are there people above them to make the decision? Yes there is a union and probably litigation, but I would be shocked if someone above the dean had to approve it.

I think ADs go into it knowing that's the deal, because that's hardly unique to SU. If they don't, they are extremely naive. BOT are involved at every single school.

 

[capeorange]

I don't see Red as an icon and if we don't get a legit center next year we are likely going to be bad. Our freshmen may develop into good players. Will they in year one? This year Elijah struggled Donnie boarded and could score but both are sieves on defense. Whoever coaches at SU next year has a ton of work to do, be it Red or someone else.
read this article regarding revenue and spending as it relates to nil on Syracuse .com

With revenue sharing expected to begin soon, Syracuse adds new position in athletic department

Syracuse has hired Kevin Morgan, a former executive with the National Lacrosse League and Washington Capitals.

www.syracuse.com

Syracuse, N.Y. -- With the revenue sharing era of college sports expected to begin next season, Syracuse University has created a new position in its athletic department to help it prepare for the future.

The school announced the creation of a general manager/chief revenue officer position Monday, naming former Washington Capitals and National Lacrosse League executive Kevin Morgan to the position.

The school said that Morgan “will focus on growing existing and creating new revenue streams and provide day-to-day leadership and oversight of all revenue generating departments at Syracuse, as well as the budget office.”


Next year is expected to be the first year that schools are permitted to pay athletes directly. The expected payments are part of a class-action settlement between the NCAA and its power conference and hundreds of thousands of current and former athletes.


Schools are expected to have the option to pay approximately $20.5 million annually directly to athletes starting next season, a number that will likely grow as revenue in the most powerful leagues grows. Those payments depend on a formal approval of the settlement. It has received preliminary approval by Judge Claudia Wilken of the Northern District of California.


Finding that money on an annual basis will be a major challenge for all but the biggest athletic departments and doing so will likely be necessary if schools want to field winning programs.


“With the college athletics landscape continuing to evolve at rapid and dramatic pace, our team must also continue to evolve to remain competitive at the highest level,” Syracuse athletic director John Wildhack said in a statement announcing Morgan’s hiring. “Kevin’s depth and breadth of experience and broad skillset is exactly what Syracuse Athletics needs in this moment. Kevin will bring fresh perspective, big ideas and challenge us all to think entrepreneurially about how to advance our revenue goals.”


Schools in the SEC and the Big Ten are expected to have the easiest time making those payments given the value of their television contracts. Schools in the ACC will likely be next in line.


Syracuse leaders have declined to say exactly how much the school will give to athletes but have said it will be “competitive.”


Job postings for the newly-created position listed the salary between $250,000 and $300,000. The onset of revenue sharing has many schools across the county looking to bring NIL collectives (or their efforts) under the school’s control.


Morgan was most recently the president of Morgan CS, a consulting firm that worked with a number of major names throughout the sports industry.

SU looks like a step up for Morgan.

National Lacrosse League Inc - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

 

[grepal]

I think ADs go into it knowing that's the deal, because that's hardly unique to SU. If they don't, they are extremely naive. BOT are involved at every single school.

Can't really equate the ivory towers with the real world. Especially, they go out of their way to protect their turf. Just don't go spouting conservative rhetoric if you do, you gone.

 

[orange79]

Then JW should quit… if I was not able to performance manage my direct reports including potentially firing them if needed, I would be immediately seeking another job.

If a Dean wanted to shite can a professor are there people above them to make the decision? Yes there is a union and probably litigation, but I would be shocked if someone above the dean had to approve it.

TBF, I am guessing most of your direct reports didn't have multi-million dollar buyouts.

 

[JeremyCuse]

TBF, I am guessing most of your direct reports didn't have multi-million dollar buyouts.

This is a ridiculous argument on a number of levels. First off I am sure most people are just going to quit an extremely high paying and coveted job that at this level has less then 75 openings in the entire country.

Second there very few if any AD's in the country who have carte blanche to fire as they please and that includes olympic sports coaches much less the coaches being paid millions of dollars.

Third there's this thing called the BOT and the Chancellors office that nearly all AD's answer to or at least get funding from. This isn't firing the 45K a year janitor because you think he/she does a bad job.

The fact this stuff has to be explained in detail is scary.

 

[AcAndAc]

Red seems to be in over his depth at this point. JB was something of an autocrat. didn't see a lot of bench coach interaction during his tenure. a lot of gum chompers. i mean seriously bernie fine rode shotgun for years on our best teams .i just don't believe JB was ever looking for much input from anybody and therefore always hired in house to keep the fealty . poor red clearly was not properly prepared for the resulting awkward handoff.

I don't know how much all that in-game interaction really matters, in fairness. It's not football, where the coordinators have a lot of responsibility... it's not a democracy, where there is vote to determine decisions. The buck stops with the head coach, and it is the head coach's job to make the key decisions. An assistant is there for pre-game preparation, practices, and perhaps to remind the coaches and players of things.. remember, we are out of timeouts... #23 has 3 fouls, let's try to get a 4th on him... YOU have 3 fouls, try not to get out of position and pick up a 4th. Or to provide the in-game explanation to players... when you see ____, you want to ___. If we had a coach constantly talking to assistants, we would be just as worried. So I am not so sure we want to pin that on JB. Red should have picked up on JB's tendencies and intelligence over the many years. But I guess it was asking too much for the Orange to place their faith in Red.

 

[AcAndAc]

This is a ridiculous argument on a number of levels. First off I am sure most people are just going to quit an extremely high paying and coveted job that at this level has less then 75 openings in the entire country.

Second there very few if any AD's in the country who have carte blanche to fire as they please and that includes olympic sports coaches much less the coaches being paid millions of dollars.

Third there's this thing called the BOT and the Chancellors office that nearly all AD's answer to or at least get funding from. This isn't firing the 45K a year janitor because you think he/she does a bad job.

The fact this stuff has to be explained in detail is scary.

Also, the public nature of this hiring decision is important, as is optics. I think that we could pivot away from Red if we really wanted to. Louisville did after two years. I think the bigger problem is that JW would have to concede an error in his own judgment. So, likely better for him to kick the can down the road another year. The problem is that we are likely to lose another 10-20% of attendance next year unless there is a big uptick in performance. We will probably tread water, get a few bounces, and be a .500 team next year. And then a very big decision looms.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Also, the public nature of this hiring decision is important, as is optics. I think that we could pivot away from Red if we really wanted to. Louisville did after two years. I think the bigger problem is that JW would have to concede an error in his own judgment. So, likely better for him to kick the can down the road another year. The problem is that we are likely to lose another 10-20% of attendance next year unless there is a big uptick in performance. We will probably tread water, get a few bounces, and be a .500 team next year. And then a very big decision looms.

The hiring of Red to replace JB was a University decision in the process of moving on from JB versus solely a Wildhack call. He will be making the next hire. Again the Red situation had a very different dynamic then most coaching changes that a lot of people especially the general SU fanbase don't understand.

 

[AcAndAc]

The hiring of Red to replace JB was a University decision in the process of moving on from JB versus solely a Wildhack call. He will be making the next hire. Again the Red situation had a very different dynamic then most coaching changes that a lot of people especially the general SU fanbase don't understand.

On the continuum of JW involvement, I think the farther away we get from his responsibility, the more likely he can delicately advocate for a change. To be sure, the people who need to approve the change have to be convinced of their own error... but at least he is not bound by having been 100% responsible and going out on a limb to recommend him.

 

[nyucuse]

The hiring of Red to replace JB was a University decision in the process of moving on from JB versus solely a Wildhack call. He will be making the next hire. Again the Red situation had a very different dynamic then most coaching changes that a lot of people especially the general SU fanbase don't understand.

This makes logical sense to me. We were in a very unique situation moving on from an iconic 47 year head coach. It was going to be complicated.

Now we are in a tough situation given the historically bad performance. I would be shocked if the powers that be all do not see that Red is not up to the task. JW needs to earn his stripes here, put his neck on the line, and make a decisive decision, with the context of this being the blue chip program for the university. Let’s see what happens. Personally I hope it is this year because, simply, we can all see plane as day that Red will not be the long-term answer, even if there is a modest uptick next year based solely on better players (versus all of a sudden developed coaching acumen).

 

[JeremyCuse]

This makes logical sense to me. We were in a very unique situation moving on from an iconic 47 year head coach. It was going to be complicated.

Now we are in a tough situation given the historically bad performance. I would be shocked if the powers that be all do not see that Red is not up to the task. JW needs to earn his stripes here, put his neck on the line, and make a decisive decision, with the context of this being the blue chip program for the university. Let’s see what happens. Personally I hope it is this year because, simply, we can all see plane as day that Red will not be the long-term answer, even if there is a modest uptick next year based solely on better players (versus all of a sudden developed coaching acumen).

I can assure you of this, John Wildhack knows what he's doing and won't hesitant to make a change. He showed it with Dino and Desko and he will do the same here. He knows the score/deal or whatever other saying you want to use.

 

[AcAndAc]

I predict: (a) JW gives a vote of confidence to Red to turn things around (you have to do that to keep recruiting/portal alive, even though it is meaningless); and (b) see what kind of talent upgrades Red and the GM can pull off. If there is a noticeable uptick in talent, then maybe there is reason to not make a move as we fans will bite at reasons to be optimistic.

 

[phil77]

I predict: (a) JW gives a vote of confidence to Red to turn things around (you have to do that to keep recruiting/portal alive, even though it is meaningless); and (b) see what kind of talent upgrades Red and the GM can pull off. If there is a noticeable uptick in talent, then maybe there is reason to not make a move as we fans will bite at reasons to be optimistic.

At this point, there is going to need to be a lot more than a slight uptick in talent for the fans to be optimistic again. They are really in danger of losing the fan base. Look at the dome right now if they fill the fan base with false hype/hope again and blow it they will lose them for a long long time like football. They need to be very careful this offseason how they treat this fanbase. Or they will dig basketball into a massive hole like they did football. I hope the power above JW realizes/cares about this I doubt it but I hope they do.

 

[RF2044]

The hiring of Red to replace JB was a University decision in the process of moving on from JB versus solely a Wildhack call. He will be making the next hire. Again the Red situation had a very different dynamic then most coaching changes that a lot of people especially the general SU fanbase don't understand.

I think EVERYBODY understands that.

Still doesn't mean that it was handled properly, or that the approach taken was the right one to reverse the slide our program was in, at that point in time. In fact, a continuity hire with an unproven coach was perhaps the DUMBEST option to choose.

"Different dynamic" is an excuse, to rationalize the University having no choice but to acquiesce to JB. That is false. Why? Because after years of allowing him to hold the program hostage, they finally forced him to step down -- but instead of ripping off the band-aid to get the pain over with, they instead chose the path of least resistance to avoid pain at all costs, and it dug our program a deeper hole.

Time to dispense with the excuses -- we blew it. And giving this unqualified guy a third year will just cause the program to slip that much further. I'm resigned to Red getting a third year because of <<reasons>>, but it doesn't make any of the above any less true.

And for the record, the excuse mongering extended back to the end of JB's tenure, and continues today:

• We had reduced scholarships...
• He should be allowed to coach as long as he wants, no matter how bad things are...
• We have to hire an internal candidate to honor JBs legacy...
• The issue with year one was the players...
• Once Red gets his own players, things will change...
• We don't have NIL money...
• Our talent is the reason Red is failing, not his coaching...
• Not even John Wooden could coach this team...

Excuse after excuse. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar -- JB shouldn't have been allowed to coach for as long as he did, because the performance didn't warrant it. And our historically bad KenPom / NET ratings prove that Red isn't a P4 caliber head coach.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I think EVERYBODY understands that.

Still doesn't mean that it was handled properly, or that the approach taken was the right one to reverse the slide our program was in, at that point in time. In fact, a continuity hire with an unproven coach was perhaps the DUMBEST option to choose.

"Different dynamic" is an excuse, to rationalize the University having no choice but to acquiesce to JB. That is false. Why? Because after years of allowing him to hold the program hostage, they finally forced him to step down -- but instead of ripping off the band-aid to get the pain over with, they instead chose the path of least resistance to avoid pain at all costs, and it dug our program a deeper hole.

Time to dispense with the excuses -- we blew it. And giving this unqualified guy a third year will just cause the program to slip that much further. I'm resigned to Red getting a third year because of <<reasons>>, but it doesn't make any of the above any less true.

And for the record, the excuse mongering extended back to the end of JB's tenure, and continues today:

• We had reduced scholarships...
• He should be allowed to coach as long as he wants, no matter how bad things are...
• We have to hire an internal candidate to honor JBs legacy...
• The issue with year one was the players...
• Once Red gets his own players, things will change...
• We don't have NIL money...
• Our talent is the reason Red is failing, not his coaching...
• Not even John Wooden could coach this team...

Excuse after excuse. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar -- Red isn't a P4 caliber head coach.

If you read this thread its clear many people don't understand that or how things work up at SU.

Red not working out as the coach is completely different from the University moving on from JB. Yes Red hasn't worked out and we probably should cut bait after this year (I have been advocating for that) but two years ago it was either hire Red or JB would still be the coach today. You can lament that those were the only two choices but its no "Excuse" that was the reality on the ground at the time. Hiring Red wasn't to acquiesce to JB, it was to get enough people on board to actually move on from him, JB didn't want to go, period.

In regards to JB I agree he should have left voluntarily or not before he did but again your not taking into account what a hold legendary coaches have on these schools and why its difficult to move on. PSU and FSU dealt with the same thing with Bowden and Paterno and UNC with Dean Smith etc etc. Only Duke was able to get it done with a smooth transition.

Red's not being brought back next year because of any of the excuses you outlined, he's being brought back because the Admin (not the ADs office) and BOT wants him to have a third year and if he doesn't make the tourney next year he will be fired.

 

[RF2044]

Red not working out as the coach is completely different from the University moving on from JB. Yes Red hasn't worked out and we probably should cut bait after this year (I have been advocating for that) but two years ago it was either hire Red or JB would still be the coach today. You can lament that those were the only two choices but its no "Excuse" that was the reality on the ground at the time. Hiring Red wasn't to acquiesce to JB, it was to get enough people on board to actually move on from him, JB didn't want to go, period.

In regards to JB I agree he should have left voluntarily or not before he did but again your not taking into account what a hold legendary coaches have on these schools and why its difficult to move on. PSU and FSU dealt with the same thing with Bowden and Paterno and UNC with Dean Smith etc etc. Only Duke was able to get it done with a smooth transition.

Red's not being brought back next year because of any of the excuses you outlined, he's being brought back because the Admin (not the ADs office) and BOT wants him to have a third year and if he doesn't make the tourney next year he will be fired.

False -- those were NOT the only two choices. But those WERE the two choices that the university artificially delimited themselves to.

JB didn't want to go, but he was forced to step down. The day before that was announced, after we'd lost in the 1st round of the ACCT, JB said in the press conference that he wasn't going to retire, and that HE alone would decide when to walk away -- not the AD, not any university officials. And the next day, ADJW put out a press release indicating that JB was no longer the head coach.

You keep saying that the fans [and in your post, me in particular] "don't understand." I understand all of what you are outlining -- we did see the same thing with FSU with Bowden hanging on too long. I disagree with your characterization of Dean Smith -- doesn't seem congruent to analogize that here.

The difference is that those guys were transitioned to competent, qualified coaches. Jimbo Fisher was the HCIW [kind of like the arrangement we had with Hop], and they executed that agreement. When Paterno left in disgrace, they went outside of the program to replace him. Duke is another situation that isn't remotely similar to us -- their icon stepped down, but the program was humming along / recruiting well, and they made a continuity hire to sustain program performance.

Red is going to get another year. And that choice that the BOT is making is going to result in a backlash from an already apathetic fanbase. Because actions / choices have consequences. You reap what you sow.

But that's what all this is -- choices that the university makes, versus having their hands tied across multiple sets of circumstances. THOSE are what the excuses are being made for.

 

[kirbivore]

UNC with Dean Smith etc etc. Only Duke was able to get it done with a smooth transition.

While the wheels eventually fell off under their long time assistant Guthridge, Dean did not leave the program in a state of decline like JB did to SU. UNC made the Final Four in Smith's final season 1997 and also in Guthridge's first season 1998.

 

[Irishsecra1]

I think EVERYBODY understands that.

Still doesn't mean that it was handled properly, or that the approach taken was the right one to reverse the slide our program was in, at that point in time. In fact, a continuity hire with an unproven coach was perhaps the DUMBEST option to choose.

"Different dynamic" is an excuse, to rationalize the University having no choice but to acquiesce to JB. That is false. Why? Because after years of allowing him to hold the program hostage, they finally forced him to step down -- but instead of ripping off the band-aid to get the pain over with, they instead chose the path of least resistance to avoid pain at all costs, and it dug our program a deeper hole.

Frankly, on his worse day, JB was a much better head coach than Red.
Red was a better recruiter but as far as game day coaching, molding an offensive and defensive strategy to actually enhance the talent he had - it is not even in the same universe.
With this talent, I think JB would have got us to at least 500, maybe a winning record.

And again, I question if Red was JB's first choice. I have heard and read too many reports that Gerry was actually his first choice.

Ironically, if we kept JB as head coach we would probably be treading water. Just below the NCAA tournament bubble but probably at 500 or above. Blow out losses would be less. There would be a definite rotation. We would know the defensive strategy - no doubt more zone, but it would be more effective.
People would still be screaming about the decline of the program but we wouldn't be a national punchline. And the fans would still be coming more or less.
And there would be hope that with better talent there would be better results.
And the anticipation of JB coaching Melo's kid would be palpable.

With Red, we have been forced to watch almost unwatchable games.
I have no idea still what the rotation is.
I have no idea what our offensive and defensive identity is.
Sadly, most games are out of reach by the 15 minute mark of the second half.
Tight games only happen with inferior opponents like Youngstown State.
And I am pissed at myself that this was the first year that I got basketball season tickets.
I feel like I bought tickets aboard the Titanic.

And with the problem being coaching, I have no hope with better talent we will be better next year.
And frankly Melo should pull Kiyan out of here - Red is doing nothing to help Kiyan's career.
I worry that SU's relationship with Melo will be forever ruined.