PITT Round 2 Post Game

[JeremyCuse]

False -- those were NOT the only two choices. But those WERE the two choices that the university artificially delimited themselves to.

JB didn't want to go, but he was forced to step down. The day before that was announced, after we'd lost in the 1st round of the ACCT, JB said in the press conference that he wasn't going to retire, and that HE alone would decide when to walk away -- not the AD, not any university officials. And the next day, ADJW put out a press release indicating that JB was no longer the head coach.

You keep saying that the fans [and in your post, me in particular] "don't understand." I understand all of what you are outlining -- we did see the same thing with FSU with Bowden hanging on too long. I disagree with your characterization of Dean Smith -- doesn't seem congruent to analogize that here.

The difference is that those guys were transitioned to competent, qualified coaches. Jimbo Fisher was the HCIW [kind of like the arrangement we had with Hop], and they executed that agreement. When Paterno left in disgrace, they went outside of the program to replace him.

Red is going to get another year. And that choice that the BOT is making is going to result in a backlash from an already apathetic fanbase. Because actions / choices have consequences. You reap what you sow.

But that's what all this is -- choices that the university makes, versus having their hands tied across multiple sets of circumstances. THOSE are what the excuses are being made for.

I never said "you" didn't understand I said a lot of people didn't understand the dynamic at the time JB was let go/forced out.

Your missing the point that JB was still the coach at that time because there wasn't the support or go ahead from within the University to move on from him. Transitioning to Red as a condition of JB being let go was one of the factors that allowed Wildhack to get the permission to make the move he had been looking to make the last few years. Again Red being the HC was apart of the transition process. You clearly view that as an excuse but it was the reality of the situation at that time. Red was not the choice of John Wildhack after an exhaustive national search.

 

[JeremyCuse]

While the wheels eventually fell off under their long time assistant Guthridge, Dean did not leave the program in a state of decline like JB did to SU. UNC made the Final Four in Smith's final season 1997 and also in Guthridge's first season 1998.

Your right, I think I am confusing him with Crum or the transition from Guthridge to I believe Doherty.

 

[RF2044]

I never said "you" didn't understand I said a lot of people didn't understand the dynamic at the time JB was let go/forced out.

Your missing the point that JB was still the coach at that time because there wasn't the support or go ahead from within the University to move on from him. Transitioning to Red as a condition of JB being let go was one of the factors that allowed Wildhack to get the permission to make the move he had been looking to make the last few years. Again Red being the HC was apart of the transition process. You clearly view that as an excuse but it was the reality of the situation at that time. Red was not the choice of John Wildhack after an exhaustive national search.

I'm not missing any point.

It's the AD job to make tough choices -- especially when an iconic coach is acting childish, and not in the best interests of the program / university.

So, if the BOT only would accept Red as a JB replacement, then yeah -- the university artificially delimited the available choices, which is what I said. What point am I missing?

It was important to get JB out. Suggesting that the only way to accomplish that was by hiring from inside the program because of a mandate from a group that shouldn't be in charge of coach hiring decisions -- that shows the dysfunction. We would have been better off keeping JB, frankly.

And as previously stated, actions / decisions have consequences -- and the "penalty" for this poor choice is that they've alienated a fanbase that had already become numb to losing during the 8 year decline over JB's last 8 years, and have lost and will continue to lose revenue.

So while I get that the AD can't always act unilaterally, this situation / botched hire demonstrates why a "committee" approach isn't always best, and that various decision making groups within the university need to stay in their lane.

 

[DilemaCuse]

This is a ridiculous argument on a number of levels. First off I am sure most people are just going to quit an extremely high paying and coveted job that at this level has less then 75 openings in the entire country.

Second there very few if any AD's in the country who have carte blanche to fire as they please and that includes olympic sports coaches much less the coaches being paid millions of dollars.

Third there's this thing called the BOT and the Chancellors office that nearly all AD's answer to or at least get funding from. This isn't firing the 45K a year janitor because you think he/she does a bad job.

The fact this stuff has to be explained in detail is scary.

Hey let me ask you this, how would describe the role of AD position then?

Like what do they actually do then besides fundraising?

Also if they dont have carte blanche to fire, do they get anywhere close to carte blanche to hire the coach they want and the BOT will likely go along with it?

 

[JeremyCuse]

Hey let me ask you this, how would describe the role of AD position then?

Like what do they actually do then besides fundraising?

Also if they dont have carte blanche to fire, do they get anywhere close to carte blanche to hire the coach they want and the BOT will likely go along with it?

They oversee really the entire athletic dept beyond just the main sports. They deal with the conferences and all of the fun that comes with that, alumni, internal issues between the academic side of the college/university and the sports side, lot of interactions with fans and alumni as I noted more than you would think. Some dabble in scheduling. When I say they don't have cart blanche to fire they still play an absolutely enormous role in the firing or lettign go of a coach. As far as hiring I'd say yes its as close to their decision as you can get.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'm not missing any point.

It's the AD job to make tough choices -- especially when an iconic coach is acting childish, and not in the best interests of the program / university.

So, if the BOT only would accept Red as a JB replacement, then yeah -- the university artificially delimited the available choices, which is what I said. What point am I missing?

It was important to get JB out. Suggesting that the only way to accomplish that was by hiring from inside the program because of a mandate from a group that shouldn't be in charge of coach hiring decisions -- that shows the dysfunction. We would have been better off keeping JB, frankly.

And as previously stated, actions / decisions have consequences -- and the "penalty" for this poor choice is that they've alienated a fanbase that had already become numb to losing during the 8 year decline over JB's last 8 years, and have lost and will continue to lose revenue.

So while I'm not missing any point, and I get that the AD can't always act unilaterally, this situation / botched hire demonstrates why a "committee" approach isn't always best, and that various decision making groups within the university need to stay in their lane.

Yes it is the AD's job, its because of the AD the school finally relented and moved off of him.

The BOT and non Sports Admin being relunctant to move off a legendary coach isn't dysfunction its the reality for a majority of schools. Iowa fans have been screaming about Ferentz for years now, yet he's still there as an example.

The committee approach was strictly in dealing with JB and his being let go and a replacement brought in. That was a one off that won't be repeated as Wildhack made the call on Gait, Fran and others.

This was the path that was needed to move on from JB and get the University to go along with it. This time next year the team will either be looking at an NCAA invite or discussing who will be taking over for Red.

 

[bnoro]

Yes it is the AD's job, its because of the AD the school finally relented and moved off of him.

The BOT and non Sports Admin being relunctant to move off a legendary coach isn't dysfunction its the reality for a majority of schools. Iowa fans have been screaming about Ferentz for years now, yet he's still there as an example.

The committee approach was strictly in dealing with JB and his being let go and a replacement brought in. That was a one off that won't be repeated as Wildhack made the call on Gait, Fran and others.

This was the path that was needed to move on from JB and get the University to go along with it. This time next year the team will either be looking at an NCAA invite or discussing who will be taking over for Red.

Wonderful, another wasted basketball season. I guess my November-March has cleared up.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Wonderful, another wasted basketball season. I guess my November-March has cleared up.

Well you'll still have November as the football team fights for bowl eligibility and then Lax in February. December and January could get tricky though.

 

[ar inj]

Boeheim was done the minute he said he would decide when he would step away.

There was no need to get buy-in that Red would get the job and so JB could be let go. I understand why Red got the job. All that said, I hear why Red is likely to get a third year, but at this point I think that will end badly.

College sports has turned into a big business and SU wants me to pay or contribute to support its sports business. I started young, so now after 60 years of fandom and many options competing for my time and money, I need to decide if and how I might want to do that.

 

[oldpinepoint]

Well you'll still have November as the football team fights for bowl eligibility and then Lax in February. December and January could get tricky though.

Christmas is fun, January will be long though

 

[DilemaCuse]

Your right, I think I am confusing him with Crum or the transition from Guthridge to I believe Doherty.

Crum transitioned to Pitino
Doherty came after Guthridge

 

[DilemaCuse]

Red was not the choice of John Wildhack after an exhaustive national search.

Was JWs statements in that intro presser just lip service then?

It sounds like it.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Was JWs statements in that intro presser just lip service then?

It sounds like it.

Well what do u expect him to say, I think he certainly liked him for the position but don't believe he would have been the ultimate hire.

 

[DilemaCuse]

They oversee really the entire athletic dept beyond just the main sports. They deal with the conferences and all of the fun that comes with that, alumni, internal issues between the academic side of the college/university and the sports side, lot of interactions with fans and alumni as I noted more than you would think. Some dabble in scheduling. When I say they don't have cart blanche to fire they still play an absolutely enormous role in the firing or lettign go of a coach. As far as hiring I'd say yes its as close to their decision as you can get.

Thank you!

 

[nyucuse]

I never said "you" didn't understand I said a lot of people didn't understand the dynamic at the time JB was let go/forced out.

Your missing the point that JB was still the coach at that time because there wasn't the support or go ahead from within the University to move on from him. Transitioning to Red as a condition of JB being let go was one of the factors that allowed Wildhack to get the permission to make the move he had been looking to make the last few years. Again Red being the HC was apart of the transition process. You clearly view that as an excuse but it was the reality of the situation at that time. Red was not the choice of John Wildhack after an exhaustive national search.

This gives me hope. JW saw the slow decline and did what was necessary to move on. Yes many of us wanted a proper national search but I also understand the complexities of moving on from a legend. But JW being as proactive as he could while being hamstrung gives me hope that he will be as proactive as possible if / when Red gets his pink slip. While most of us want it to be after this season, seems unlikely. But I am sure he is doing what he can to make the move 12 months from now.

 

[orangecuse]

The hiring of Red to replace JB was a University decision in the process of moving on from JB versus solely a Wildhack call. He will be making the next hire. Again the Red situation had a very different dynamic then most coaching changes that a lot of people especially the general SU fanbase don't understand.

Be that as it may, I doubt same can be said about what he voluntarily chose to utter to his entire viewing public/audience when introducing Red. Unless, of course, he's also a puppet of sorts when it comes to what he chooses to craft and spew to the community as well. Perhaps, he doesn't care much about perception or his credibility on that front either?

Wildhack said, Autry has been exposed to every aspect of the sport, and that uniquely prepares him for the job. “Adrian earned this,” Wildhack said Friday. “Adrian’s not here because he’s an alum, because he played here, because he’s an associate coach here. He’s here because I believe he’s the best candidate to lead this program and sustain the success that coach Boeheim has established over 47 years.”

 

[nyucuse]

Be that as it may, I doubt same can be said about what he voluntarily chose to utter to his entire viewing public/audience when introducing Red. Unless, of course, he's also a puppet of sorts when it comes to what he chooses to craft and spew to the community as well. Perhaps, he doesn't care much about perception or his credibility on that front.

Wildhack said, Autry has been exposed to every aspect of the sport, and that uniquely prepares him for the job. “Adrian earned this,” Wildhack said Friday. “Adrian’s not here because he’s an alum, because he played here, because he’s an associate coach here. He’s here because I believe he’s the best candidate to lead this program and sustain the success that coach Boeheim has established over 47 years.”

It's an intro following a tumultuous dismissal. He said what every other AD in America would say. It was the right thing to say at the time given the context. You want to set the guy up for success and quell fan anxiety. Job done.

 

[cusefan88]

My memory of the last 30-40 years isn't encyclopedic but I would say Jim Harrick (UCLA) and Mike Davis (Indiana) had immediate but ultimately brief success. Harrick at least was an outside hire though they did promote Lavin later.

Following a legend is incredibly difficult and most the data is suggesting promoting an assistant is not the winning formula.

 

[DilemaCuse]

It's an intro following a tumultuous dismissal. He said what every other AD in America would say. It was the right thing to say at the time given the context. You want to set the guy up for success and quell fan anxiety. Job done.

Agreed, its what he had to say but knowing that he wasnt truly the choice he wanted, I cant believe he would then give him a 5 year contract if he wasnt fully confident, right?

 

[JeremyCuse]

Be that as it may, I doubt same can be said about what he voluntarily chose to utter to his entire viewing public/audience when introducing Red. Unless, of course, he's also a puppet of sorts when it comes to what he chooses to craft and spew to the community as well. Perhaps, he doesn't care much about perception or his credibility on that front either?

Wildhack said, Autry has been exposed to every aspect of the sport, and that uniquely prepares him for the job. “Adrian earned this,” Wildhack said Friday. “Adrian’s not here because he’s an alum, because he played here, because he’s an associate coach here. He’s here because I believe he’s the best candidate to lead this program and sustain the success that coach Boeheim has established over 47 years.”

Nyucuse summed it up in his response.

 

[PoppyHart]

Red's not being brought back next year because of any of the excuses you outlined, he's being brought back because the Admin (not the ADs office) and BOT wants him to have a third year and if he doesn't make the tourney next year he will be fired.

Is this owed to some philosophical belief that at least 3 years is warranted? Fear of some sort of litigation (e.g. discrimination)? Charity?

Just sounds so naive and wreaks of over-reaching imo.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Is this owed to some philosophical belief that at least 3 years is warranted? Fear of some sort of litigation (e.g. discrimination)? Charity?

Just sounds so naive and wreaks of over-reaching imo.

Good question, I am not really sure to be honest. My best guess is they want to see how the team looks with the incoming recruiting class and a more directed portal effort with additional NIL money. I think they would be better served clearing house and getting an outside hire and starting fresh but I think that's only the plan if next year doesn't work out.

 

[orangecuse]

It's an intro following a tumultuous dismissal. He said what every other AD in America would say. It was the right thing to say at the time given the context. You want to set the guy up for success and quell fan anxiety. Job done.

Okay. You're free to believe what you choose to believe, one's own thinking is the sole property of its owner. That said, your "every other AD in America would say" is some uncanny type telepathy on your part.

 

[gmoney44]

I can assure you of this, John Wildhack knows what he's doing and won't hesitant to make a change. He showed it with Dino and Desko and he will do the same here. He knows the score/deal or whatever other saying you want to use.

Ya he really pulled the trigger with Dino and Desko. 2 to 3 years after any sane person saw they needed to move on.

 

[BomberOrange]

Well you'll still have November as the football team fights for bowl eligibility and then Lax in February. December and January could get tricky though.

It just makes zero sense that smart people (well that’s debatable) would let it get to this point. They cannot see that this is an extension of years of incompetence not just last year and this year. Give another year just to give another year for optics, no other reason? Head in the sand leadership