Ray Allen to the Heat | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Ray Allen to the Heat

I never understood why anyone would get mad that good players who are also good friends would want to play together.

You would think Lebron, Bosh and Wade held the NBA by gunpoint. As if 3 good players never played on the same team before.

How many players other than Hakeem the Dream won NBA championships with no other stars on his team?
I just didnt like Lebron because of how he handled the decision. Now that hes there, as Ive stated before, I find crybaby Wade to be more obnoxious than Lebron. That Knicks-Heat series got me going because the amount of flopping done by LBJ/Wade/Battier was insane and I just didnt respect the way they played the game.

Plus im a Knicks fan so I have built in hate for the Heat.
 
Knicks certainly aren't just sitting idly by. They have a nice team... unfortunately, the two main tent poles don't quite prop the tent up like you would hope. Melo scores...and Amare wants to score and not do much else. Not sure how that can change.
 
You mean other than the fact that both KG and Allen were traded to the Celtics, whereas Lebron / Bosh went to Miami as free agents? Because yeah--other than that glaring difference, the situations were quite similar.

Well, that settles that :)
 
Very good Ethan Sherwood Strauss piece at Hoopspeak:

"Many of these guys have been dealing with the wants since sentience. It doesn’t take a boy genius to figure that your AAU coach might have an angle, especially if he has a gleaming Mercedes. The college coach comes next. He’s all sweater vests and sanctimony, but perhaps he’ll pay your AAU coach via an NCAA sanctioned 'scrimmage.' He’ll do it just for a shot at you, because you’re the goods. It’s a cynicizing life, spent playing a beautiful game. And on to the fans of pro sports teams, the ones who only care about you insofar as what you can do for them. Quite a few South Florida citizens seamlessly transitioned from celebrating Mike Miller’s incredible Finals three point barrage to openly investigating how he could be replaced going forward. What would an amnesty accomplish? Can Riley convince the broken toy to retire? The love is so conditional, and conditions can easily cause the affection to ferment into a hatred dark and addled. When Miami’s LeBron first returned to Cleveland, he appeared before a large 'Like father, like son' sign, because some idiot wanted to mock and hurt James over growing up without a dad. Such ugly displays are indivisible from the love that precedes them. It’s a lot of misplaced emotion, funneled towards someone the fan recognizes as human in the most shallow of senses."
 
How many players other than Hakeem the Dream won NBA championships with no other stars on his team?

Off the top of my head, 2004 Pistons, last year's Mavericks, Bill Walton's Blazers...

The list is definitely short.
 
You mean other than the fact that both KG and Allen were traded to the Celtics, whereas Lebron / Bosh went to Miami as free agents? Because yeah--other than that glaring difference, the situations were quite similar.

That's true, but didn't KG pretty much handpick the Celtics? And he only said yes after Allen went there?

(This was 5 years ago, my memory could surely be off).

And if you want to get technical, both Lebron and Bosh went to Miami as sign and trade deals. Of course it was effectively a free agent thing, but it was a trade. (that's really semantics, but I wanted to mention it) And from what I remember, as I mention above, KG effectively picked the Celtics as well. Its not like the trade was sprung on him out of nowhere. He signed an extension contingent on the trade. The situations probably aren't all that different.

Edit: Just doing some reading about it; Garnett originally didn't want to go to Boston and wasn't going to agree to be dealt there, but then after they got Ray Allen, he agreed to go there and sign an extension. So certainly in the case of Garnett, it was very much like Lebron and Bosh going to Miami.
 
That's true, but didn't KG pretty much handpick the Celtics? And he only said yes after Allen went there?

(This was 5 years ago, my memory could surely be off).

And if you want to get technical, both Lebron and Bosh went to Miami as sign and trade deals. Of course it was effectively a free agent thing, but it was a trade. (that's really semantics, but I wanted to mention it) And from what I remember, as I mention above, KG effectively picked the Celtics as well. Its not like the trade was sprung on him out of nowhere. He signed an extension contingent on the trade. The situations probably aren't all that different.

Edit: Just doing some reading about it; Garnett originally didn't want to go to Boston and wasn't going to agree to be dealt there, but then after they got Ray Allen, he agreed to go there and sign an extension. So certainly in the case of Garnett, it was very much like Lebron and Bosh going to Miami.


Give me a ing break. Qualitatively, there is absolutely no comparison between those two situations. Lebron was on the cusp of being an UFA, and forced the Cavaliers's hand [ditto Bosh and Toronto]. Cleveland took a crappy, back loaded trade that they haven't even received any benefit from yet if I'm not mistaken in order to avoid losing an irreplaceable asset totally uncompensated. That wasn't a "trade," it was a hostage negotiation, and to claim that the situations "aren't all that different" because of Lebron being a sign and trade is pedantic and splitting hairs, while conveniently missing the point I was making in the post you responded to.

KG wanted to remain in Minnesota for his entire career--he wasn't looking for a new team, and he wasn't "friends" with either Paul Pierce or Ray Allen before getting traded there. He was devastated and insulted when the Wolves began to shop him, and his name began to surface in trade rumors.

One guy cherry picked his destination so that he could play with his friends. The other reluctantly got traded, relenting at the 11th hour after expressing that he didn't even want to go to the team that he eventually got traded to.

One group of players colluded behind the scenes to play together [legally, within the rules of free agency--not suggesting otherwise]. The other came together due to management, with very little interaction between the players beforehand.

One situation was about amassing three max players who were universally recognized as being among the top players in the world, in their prime. The other was an enormous risk, putting together three players who were considered past their prime and hadn't collectively played much meaningful basketball--and there was certainly no guarantee the players would even be compatible.

Granted, Boston did win the championship that first year, so it obviously worked out for them--but let's be honest: nobody foresaw the team coming together defensively like that, or could have predicted that players like Pierce and Allen would be willing to sacrifice shots of sublimate egos, because nothing in their careers up to that point suggested that would be the case.
 
The sign and trade part was semantics; I probably shouldn't even have brought it up. Can't help myself sometimes. (Lebron was an UFA as well; I think they did use the trade exception they got for dealing Lebron, can't remember the trade, and obviously no where close to fair value. But the cavs knew he was leaving anf at least got the exception.)

One guy cherry picked his destination so that he could play with his friends. The other reluctantly got traded, relenting at the 11th hour after expressing that he didn't even want to go to the team that he eventually got traded to.

I was looking at it from the standpoint of KG ended up cherry picking his location. He didn't want to go to Boston until they got Ray Allen. You're right he was loyal to Minnesota and didn't really want to leave, but both he and Lebron got to pick where they were going, and they each ended up going to the place where they could play with other great players. It wasn't identical. (And just for the record drawing the parallel shouldn't be seen as a knock on KG. I have no issue with it). But the fact that he didn't want to go there until Allen got traded there does kind of tell you he was going there to chase a ring, to steal a phrase from earlier in the thread. Which again; no problem. But it isn't like he just so happened to be traded to Boston out of luck.

Did KG have a no trade at the time? I know there are very few, so I don't remember if he had one or it was just a function of no one willing to trade for him without an extension. And also, to bring this back to the Dwight discussion, the KG trade is just another example of how when a team trades a superstar, they never win the deal no matter what.

Granted, Boston did win the championship that first year, so it obviously worked out for them--but let's be honest: nobody foresaw the team coming together defensively like that,


Another point in favor of KG's greatness, btw. (I remember thinking before the trade Boston woulodn't have the depth to make it work. I was clearly wrong).
 
Well...possibly one team sadly.

Are you talking Denver? Because I don't put Melo on that level. And also, I have to say I was wrong about that somewhat; the Knicls have still been able to put some talent around Stat and Melo.
 
Are you talking Denver? Because I don't put Melo on that level. And also, I have to say I was wrong about that somewhat; the Knicls have still been able to put some talent around Stat and Melo.

Yes, Denver
Melo isn't on the level of a superstar? If not, name all the superstar trades in history.
 
Yes, Denver
Melo isn't on the level of a superstar? If not, name all the superstar trades in history.

I don't feel like going back in history; but I would be pretty conservative with it. Guys currently would be Lebron, Howard, Paul, Durant; then the older guys like Kobe, Wade, maybe Dirk. Melo was probably a top 15 player at the time of the trade; not a superstar to me. The fact that Denver got Wilson Chandler, Gallo, and I believe a lateish first round pick for Melo and you think they might have won the trade kinda tells you that Melo isn't a superstar. Though I'm thinking the Knicks are probably gonna win that trade anyway.

I'm talking guys the level of Moses Malone, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, KG. (funny, they all seem to be big guys). I'm clearly forgetting a ton of guys. But guys who usually make first team all league. And I may be overrating CP3, since he's only made one first team all league.
 
I don't feel like going back in history; but I would be pretty conservative with it. Guys currently would be Lebron, Howard, Paul, Durant; then the older guys like Kobe, Wade, maybe Dirk. Melo was probably a top 15 player at the time of the trade; not a superstar to me. The fact that Denver got Wilson Chandler, Gallo, and I believe a lateish first round pick for Melo and you think they might have won the trade kinda tells you that Melo isn't a superstar. Though I'm thinking the Knicks are probably gonna win that trade anyway.

I'm talking guys the level of Moses Malone, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, KG. (funny, they all seem to be big guys). I'm clearly forgetting a ton of guys.

No I don't think you are. If you are saying "when a team trades a superstar, they never win the deal no matter what" and equating superstar to a Top 5 player in the game at the time of the trade, that's pretty much the list (add Barkley).

regarding the trade:
Melo = Felton (turned into Andre Miller), Gallinari, Chandler, Mozgov and an unprotected 2014 first round pick.

So they got a backup PG, starting PF, starting SF, and a backup C (plus the pick). That's pretty close to a win right now unless Melo gets to at least a conf. finals in the near future.
 
No I don't think you are. If you are saying "when a team trades a superstar, they never win the deal no matter what" and equating superstar to a Top 5 player in the game at the time of the trade, that's pretty much the list (add Barkley).

Yes, my standards are high. Basically the guys who usually end up winning the championships. Funny that most of the stars at that level traded are the big guys.
 
I kind of love these guys sticking it to Stern and forming teams with their power buddies. Stern wanted parity and he got the exact opposite.. ratings are good though, so I imagine he doesnt really care in the end.
 

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